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Im worried

Magurk

xALFx Soldier
For a while now i have been a preety strong aethiest.
I currently have been reading works of plato and socrates and other famous philosophers and started asking myself, should i really give up on faith? I've been thinking about going back to temple(jewish) with my family and start worshiping again. I only have been thinking about this because i also asked the question, what if your wrong Eric? About the afterlife. I thaught when you die well you just die, but picking up these works and just thinking much more about it i face the possibility that im wrong, and come my death what then?


Any of you have suggestions for me?
 

Jaymes

The cake is a lie
Take a look at why you became atheist in the first place. See if those reasons still apply. If they don't, do you have reasons to go back to the religion you were once a part of? Or maybe seek another?
 

Steve

Active Member
Hi Magurk,
Indeed what if you are wrong. Do you belive in any of the miracles of the Old testament? Or the prophets and their prophecies?
If there is a God how would you go if you had to face him today?
Being a Christian id say you need the atonement Christ made for you as described by the prophet Isaiah.
These are the most important decisions you will ever make.
 

s2a

Heretic and part-time (skinny) Santa impersonator
Hello Magurk,

You said:

For a while now i have been a preety strong aethiest.
I currently have been reading works of plato and socrates and other famous philosophers and started asking myself, should i really give up on faith? I've been thinking about going back to temple(jewish) with my family and start worshiping again. I only have been thinking about this because i also asked the question, what if your wrong Eric? About the afterlife. I thaught when you die well you just die, but picking up these works and just thinking much more about it i face the possibility that im wrong, and come my death what then?


Any of you have suggestions for me?
Geez Magurk. There's nothing quite like presenting a complex question that lends no snappy or simple answer in reply. ;-)

I'll assume from your other posts within REF that you are still in secondary (High school) education (still time to polish those typing/spelling skills ;-)). If this is so, I applaud your interest in reading (and pondering upon) some of mankind's most notable philosophers. Not many folks of your generation indulge the ruminations of great thinkers of the ages. I encourage you to continue discovering as many varied and divergent philosophical works as time and opportunity may afford you.

"Strong" atheism is not for the weak of heart, the intemperate, or for the unsure. Atheism is not about "denying" the claims of supernaturalistic/theistic beliefs. Atheism is a confidently and self-assured rational position, stating that claims of supernatural cause/effect "explanations" of natural phenomena are simply not credible "beyond a reasonable doubt", when such claims are unsubstantially evidenced or inherently unfalsifiable/unprovable. Do you question the veritable existence of the Easter Bunny, fairies, or hobgoblins? Is your position regarding these myths/legends that they are unequivocally unsubstantiated bunk; or "possible, but unproven"? If your position is of the former, then you may be a "strong atheist" ("Beyond a reasonable doubt, I conclude that there is no Easter Bunny"). If it is the latter, you may be more likely an agnostic (or some form of spiritualist instead ("There may or may not be a God. I don't know/don't care/unsure/undecided").

Just so you know, I have been both an ardent skeptic and a "strong atheist" my entire adult life (30+ years). As such, I would counsel that you exercise your critical thinking and reason in all aspects of merited evaluation, consideration, and resultant choices. Would you abandon critical evaluation of available data when considering a purchase of an mp3 player, cell phone, or new CD/DVD? Which do you "trust" most? Your "gut instinct"; peer pressure; popular/majority opinion; or facts and evidences that lead to a thusly rendered rational, informed, and "reasonable" conclusion? When you're a teenager, it's difficult (practically impossible) to ignore/dismiss external pressures that seek to "guide" you to a predetermined/forgone assumption/conclusion. Nobody wants to be perceived as dating the "fat or homely" girl, even if you don't see her as being either fat or ugly.

As a reminder, atheism makes no promises as to any benevolence within the cosmos. In fact, from an atheistic view, the cosmos is absolutely ambivalent about your momentary existence in the grand scope of things in time. The universe lends neither punishment nor reward - only consequences in choices made or unmade. No "ultimate justice". No "higher plane of existence". No "milk and cookies" for "being good". No "fire and brimstone" for "being bad". The cosmos just is...and you have the momentary opportunity to experience a mortal existence to it's fullest. You establish (through experience, knowledge, and personal discovery) your own "purpose" for existence; your own "reason" to exist. This "freedom" to choose your own course is not without responsibility/accountability. As an atheist, you have no deity/force to either blame or gratefully acknowledge for your fortunes and choices. No shaking your fist at the sky. No wishful thinking to ameliorate difficult circumstances. It's your bed...you made it...and you're gonna have to sleep in it.

Now, if the prospect of being fully free, yet fully accountable for all of the choices you make, conclusions you draw, and behavior/actions you concomitantly assume responsibility for as solely your your own answer for...makes you uneasy, uncomfortable, or noncommital...then perhaps a declaration of professing "strong atheism" is a tad premature, or at least mischaracterizing of your tenuous (and prospectively fluid) personal philosophy. But take heart. Some folks spend their entire adult lives in ongoing quests - seeking those seemingly elusive, immutable, spiritual, and definitive "truths" of a mortal existence. Some will rely upon logic/reason/skepticism to discern such "truths". Far more will accept abstract premises/claims predicated upon "faith" alone as definitive allegorical/philosophical/dogmatic "truths".
The bad news is...you have to make those determinations of "truth" for yourself.
The good news is...you have a mind of your own to use, to the best of your own abilities, in making such determinations.

You have suggested the "conundrum" of "Pascal's Wager", which posits (in essence) "What have you got to lose by believing in (a) god? If you're 'right', then no harm done. But if you're wrong, you'll suffer eternal unpleasant circumstances."

Simple enough, right? Seems a logical enough conclusion to accept, doesn't it? But such is the stuff of logical fallacies, and why they hold no water or merit when exposed to the light of reason and critical evaluation. If you like, here are some critical refutations of "Pascal's Wager", and why "worrying" about the (implied/inferred/threatened) prospective untoward consequences of "unbelief" are fallacious and unmerited by simple implementation of rational thought.

http://encyclopedia.thefreedictionary.com/Pascals wager

http://www.geocities.com/paulntobin/pascal.html

http://www.eskimo.com/~cwj2/atheism/pascal.html
 

Terrywoodenpic

Oldest Heretic
Faith is not about reason...
Religion(God) choses you not you it...
You can not line up religions, with a list of pros and cons, then make a choice between them.
If you are drawn to believe something, you will believe it. If you have Faith you will know it to be true.
Go to a service with your family, put yourself in the hands of God, you may well be drawn back to your earlier faith or you may find another path, It is all about accepting the reality of God's Love.

Terry_________________________--
Amen! Truly I say to you: Gather in my name. I am with you.
 

Jayhawker Soule

-- untitled --
Premium Member
Magurk said:
I only have been thinking about this because i also asked the question, what if your wrong Eric?
What if you're wrong about Judaism and should accept 'Christ'? But then ...

What if you're wrong about Christianity and should embrace Buddhism? But then ...

What if you're wrong about Buddhism and should worship Ba'al? But then ...

What if you're wrong about Ba'al and should contemplate Daoism? But then ...

What if there is, indeed, a God who respects intellectual integrity and holds fear-driven sycophants in utter contempt? But then ...

What if you were right being an atheist all along? My suggestion: "to thine own self be true" - and don't prostitute your intellect in the process.
 

michel

Administrator Emeritus
Staff member
Hi Maguk,


I guess most people have all been there at some time. Not a nice place to be.

Everyone here has given you good tips, but I just thought of another one, which might just help.
I've been thinking about going back to temple(jewish) with my family and start worshiping again. I only have been thinking about this because i also asked the question, what if your wrong Eric? About the afterlife. I thaught when you die well you just die, but picking up these works and just thinking much more about it i face the possibility that im wrong, and come my death what then?
What I have highlighted in red, I would say, is not a reason to find a religion.

To 'join' a religion, just to buy yourself insurance (to put it at it's crudest) is unlikely to make you feel good; indeed, you might get to resent having to go to services, but feel that you 'have to' just in case.

I think you need to spend some quality time on your own (where you cannot be disturbed - say out in the country), sit down, and have a damned good think.

Is it just a 'case of an insurance policy' - or is there maybe more to it than that ? Try to examine exactly what made you start thinking.....maybe ( I know you quoted reading that you have done) but those are other peoples' thought - not yours.

I think the essense here is to decide what you feel like, what does your gut instinct and your heart tell you - hence the nice quiet sit somewhere; the answer might just click into place either way, or you might end up still unsure, but at least you will have given the chance to hear what your real thoughts are.

Hope that helps.;)
 

Steve

Active Member
Faith can be about reason.
To deny what i believe i have to instead believe that the apostles all decided to make up a lie they were willing to die for.
I would have to belive everything i see around me was able to create itself, whether it be the different forms of life or the solar system setup making life possible.
I would have to deny things i have personally seen, demonic deliverence etc and also belive that everyone else who has ever stated they have experienced somthing supernatural is mistaken or lying.
I also would have to deny every time ive felt Gods hand over my life, or his presence in worship.
Some people may be happy to call their faith "blind faith" but i wouldnt. God has given enough for us to have a "reasonable" faith, its up to us if we accept it
 

Scuba Pete

Le plongeur avec attitude...
There are a ton of people who would love to influence you. They will reason and sometimes cajole and taunt. They are the reason(s) that you have such a hard time switching now. Your spiritual side wants out: don't keep it in. If your life and beliefs take another tack later on, it's OK. Just be yourself! Don't let the pride stop you from being WHO you are, even from one moment to the next.

A special friend of mine was many years a Christian. I heard him lead Bible studies that decried homosexuality. During a rather tumultuous time in the church, he realised that he was gay and had always been so. In his introspection, I think that he found that he let OTHERS control what he thought was acceptable, and that's not right. I am proud that he has found himself, and it is obvious to me that he is in a "Good Place" for him right now. Good for him! He is true to himself and that is the most important. In all candor, he is making me rethink just WHAT I believe by his entire life.

So debate your beliefs with yourself. Even listen to what others have to say about why they believe what they do. But don't worry about how you worship God. It's a "come as you are" party, so enjoy!
 

BruceDLimber

Well-Known Member
Greetings!

I think it's perfectly possible--and appropriate!--to investigate the various religions, come to an informed conclusion about which one is best, and then follow that!

Knowledge and faith in God work here, too.

Peace,

Bruce
 

Shadow Wolf

Certified People sTabber
what if your wrong Eric? About the afterlife.
ALL OF US could be wrong. Duet put it very nicly,
My suggestion: "to thine own self be true" - and don't prostitute your intellect in the process.
Religion(God) choses you not you it...
This is also very true. You will feel right at home with a certain relgion, or no religion, and know it is were you belong. Most people will tell you they are happy as Christians, in my case, I was miserable. I was very unhappy, and my faith caused me to do some harsh things. After a series of events, I found myself searching. At first, I took a liking to getting as much information as possible at all religions. I was advised to aviod the Nocturnal based religions, but even before I was, I felt drawn to them. I purchased a few books about them, and found I already displayed many traits common in Nocturnalist. But enough of my story, my point is, you need to go with what feels right to you. Theres no 100% way to say that "Yes, this is definitly what hapens when you die," so don't worry about death now. Only the dead truly know those secrets.
 

lilithu

The Devil's Advocate
Magurk said:
For a while now i have been a preety strong aethiest.
I currently have been reading works of plato and socrates and other famous philosophers and started asking myself, should i really give up on faith? I've been thinking about going back to temple(jewish) with my family and start worshiping again. I only have been thinking about this because i also asked the question, what if your wrong Eric? About the afterlife. I thaught when you die well you just die, but picking up these works and just thinking much more about it i face the possibility that im wrong, and come my death what then?


Any of you have suggestions for me?
What exactly are you worried about? Let's say you stay an atheist and come to your death and find that there is indeed an afterlife. What do you think will happen to you?

The reason I ask is this:
If you are considering believing in God in order to avoid hell, as kind of an insurance policy, well that's not really belief anyway. It's a sham, and don't you think that God would know it?

And if there is an afterlife, and if there is a God, what kind of God do you think "he" is? Is he the kind of God who would condemn someone to hell just for not believing in him? Would he care about his ego more than whether you were a good person? Does that kind of God make sense to you?

When I was in high school I believed in that kind of God, and I was so angry at him for being so unfair that I told him flat out that I would not follow him, I would stand against him, even if that meant I was going to hell. Because might does not make right.

And then when I was in college I didn't believe in God (tho now when I look back in my journals I find that I still did but couldn't use the word God, which I associated with the angry mean white man in the clouds).

Now, I do believe in God. But I believe because my faith helps me in this life, not in some afterlife. I now believe in a loving God who would never condemn someone to hell over something as trivial as whether or not someone gave him his props. I now believe in a loving God who only cares whether we are loving towards each other.

If you feel that something is missing in this life. If you feel that Plato and Socrates and others may have been on to something worthwhile in this life, then go back to your temple and try it out. Test it. If it feels good to you spiritually, make a commitment. If it doesn't, try something else, or walk away altogether. But it makes no sense, to me anyway, to "worship" God for fear of the afterlife. I have faith that my God will not condemn you simply for lack of faith. I have faith that whoever judges you, if you are judged at all, will do so on your character and good deeds.
 

Scuba Pete

Le plongeur avec attitude...
Lilthu,

who are we to judge why a person believes in God or not? Whether he believes as a form of fire insurance or not is entirely up to him. None of us have "perfect motives" for believing what we do, and that's "OK". God knows our limitations and all of us have them.
 

AtheistAJ

Member
Eric,
Most good you can do in this world is if you stand for truth and not fantasize some happy place where you live forever, whilst giving your support to some of many different sects bent on dominating the world and destroying everything in it's way to do so for profits. Religious groups are lying to us to help them take over governments. Think of it this way, universe needs to be balanced. You can't have all "good" and no "bad" like in "heaven". Universes need to be perfect like atoms need to be stable.
I hope this helps make decision, it's a binary choice really. Either you're completely right, or completely wrong.

P.S. As discussed elsewhere, if you only worship the "all mighty and knowing" god to let you in heaven, don't you think that if he existed he would have known better?
 

Faint

Well-Known Member
Deut. 10:19 said:
What if you're wrong about Judaism and should accept 'Christ'? But then ...

What if you're wrong about Christianity and should embrace Buddhism? But then ...

What if you're wrong about Buddhism and should worship Ba'al? But then ...

What if you're wrong about Ba'al and should contemplate Daoism? But then ...

What if there is, indeed, a God who respects intellectual integrity and holds fear-driven sycophants in utter contempt? But then ...

What if you were right being an atheist all along? My suggestion: "to thine own self be true" - and don't prostitute your intellect in the process.
Yeah, this about sums it up (nice quote from the bard by the way). :clap
 

BruceDLimber

Well-Known Member
Deut. 10:19 said:
What if you're wrong about Judaism and should accept 'Christ'? But then ...

What if you're wrong about Christianity and should embrace Buddhism? But then ...

What if you're wrong about Buddhism and should worship Ba'al? But then ...

What if you're wrong about Ba'al and should contemplate Daoism? But then ...
(and so on.)

What you overlook of course, is the fact that various scriptures promise that the sincere seeker will be divinely-guided!

Remember "Seek and ye shall find?"

Peace,

Bruce
 

robtex

Veteran Member
lilithu said:

The reason I ask is this:
If you are considering believing in God in order to avoid hell, as kind of an insurance policy, well that's not really belief anyway. It's a sham, and don't you think that God would know it?
Excellent point.
 

jewscout

Religious Zionist
Magurk said:
For a while now i have been a preety strong aethiest.
I currently have been reading works of plato and socrates and other famous philosophers and started asking myself, should i really give up on faith? I've been thinking about going back to temple(jewish) with my family and start worshiping again. I only have been thinking about this because i also asked the question, what if your wrong Eric? About the afterlife. I thaught when you die well you just die, but picking up these works and just thinking much more about it i face the possibility that im wrong, and come my death what then?


Any of you have suggestions for me?
unfortunately there is no easy answer to this. My suggestion is to speak to the rabbi at your shul and really try to do some exploration and start there. Continue to read on philosophy and really give it some time and thought.
all i can say is it's not an easy road.
my prayers go out to you sir.
 
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