I'm so sick of the over-veneration of police officers.

[Valjean]

Of course not all cops are bad, but pretending that merely wearing the uniform makes one a hero by default and that corruption, incompetence, misconduct, etc. either doesn't happen or is excusable is idiocy.

The profession attracts authoritarians.

 

[Twilight Hue]

Drivers and Officers are killed every year because drivers don't yield to police cars responding to emergencies.

I have to agree with that. It was about the time when New York state was considering the pull over law where it was required to get in the opposite lane or slow down to a reasonable speed when approaching and passing stopped 1st responders.

I was against it, but 2 police officers were killed in my state not soon after, and I since clammed up about being against the law.

It really didn't matter because I did that anyways, so the law technically did not affect me.

 

[shmogie]

Of course not all cops are bad, but pretending that merely wearing the uniform makes one a hero by default and that corruption, incompetence, misconduct, etc. either doesn't happen or is excusable is idiocy.

No, just wearing the uniform does not make one a hero.

There are many police departments in many states. From two officers, to thousands.

There are variances in the amount of training and it's quality. In my day, there were police officers in parts of the country that had limited training, or none.

There were corrupt departments, way back Denver PD was at the top of the list. New Orleans PD, was the most amazingly corrupt department in the 80's and 90's, there are abject horror stories about what they did.

I worked in California, a pioneer in the POST system for police officers, PEACE OFFICERS STANDARDS AND TRAINING. In this system the state sets the amount of training required in an approved academy, the specific types of training, the curriculum, hiring standards, regular re training, and very specific standards for performance and evaluation.

In this Ca. was rare in 1969 when I started, today many states, if not all, have adopted similar standards.

Departments can exceed the standard, I know of a number that require bachelors degrees to apply.

Of course this doesn't eliminate mistakes, or incompetence at a given point or corruption, but it goes a very long way in doing so.

I believe these things are heavily exaggerated by people who want to believe them. Most are lies, or both sides aren't reported.

So, what makes a hero a hero. Do you think chasing someone on foot who has a gun is heroic? Would you do it?

My cousin, an Officer in N. Ca. was chasing a suspect across back yards, over the wooden fences. The fourth fence he was shot in the face by the suspect who was waiting for him. He lost an eye and had other injuries and lost his career. Is he a hero? would you do it?

Here is the point, most police officers do like things on a regular basis from year to year. They are seeing much more violence than in my day, in my jurisdiction. I think they are heroic.

 

[shmogie]

The profession attracts authoritarians.

How do you know that?

 

[Revoltingest]

How do you know that?

I know it cuz I've known & met many cops.
Consider that if someone is a bully, what more
attractive a profession would there be? One
gets to be violent with a great level of impunity.
One, who worked for me as a contractor, was
candid enuf to admit how he & his buddies
(Flint, MI) would beat people & drive drunk.
They watched each other's backs.

 

[Darkforbid]

I know it cuz I've known & met many cops.
Consider that if someone is a bully, what more
attractive a profession would there be? One
gets to be violent with a great level of impunity.
One, who worked for me as a contractor, was
candid enuf to admit how he & his buddies
(Flint, MI) would beat people & drive drunk.
They watched each other's backs.

Prison gard

 

[Revoltingest]

Prison gard

I knew one well.
Another I didn't know, but his wife worked for me.
He beat her up once that I know of.

 

[shmogie]

I know it cuz I've known & met many cops.
Consider that if someone is a bully, what more
attractive a profession would there be? One
gets to be violent with a great level of impunity.
One, who worked for me as a contractor, was
candid enuf to admit how he & his buddies
(Flint, MI) would beat people & drive drunk.
They watched each other's backs.

I can't comment on Flint Mi. When was this?

In my department, written psych exams (MMPI) and psychiatric interviews, then polygraph exams, then stress interview boards then extensive background checks were used exactly to weed out bullies. My department required a bachelors degree to apply. Certainly there can be BA bullies, but it says a lot about discipline and meeting performance and interpersonal standards. Someone who is by nature violent was either screened out by the system, or was caught in their first 6 months where they were with a field training officer and everything they did was observed and evaluated.

I can tell you stories that the old timers told when I started in 1969 about what they did "in the old days" that were hair raising. As a rookie, I saw things that were wrong, but was terrified to report, though I never saw anyone driving drunk or anyone beaten up that wasn't the result of a knock down drag out fight the beatee started. I was involved in a major fight with a huge man out of his mind, and it took four of us to beat him down enough to control him, before he killed someone.

How do you know your informant was even telling the truth ?

 

[Revoltingest]

I can't comment on Flint Mi. When was this?

He worked for me 10 or 20 years ago.

How do you know your informant was even telling the truth ?

"Informant"?
He worked for me for several years, & was a residential tenant too.
How much better can one person know another?
Oh, I also knew his girlfriend cuz she worked at a hardware store I frequented.
He beat her up, & threatened her family if she reported it.
I suppose it could all be some massive conspiracy orchestrated to make cops look bad.
Anyway, the point was that he was a bully.
There were other symptoms too.

 

[Stevicus]

When you condemn police officers generally, as you have, you are making accusations against me, and I take it just as personally as a Black person would if you said all Blacks are lazy.

Blanket statements like this is pure nonsense, decidedly false.

If there's anything specific of mine that I wrote that you wish to address, then please do so. If not, then I'll just chalk this up to the usual complaints.

But this is related to a generalized observation I've had about police officers: They can't take any form of criticism or comment without viewing it as some kind of "attack." I've seen videos of cops going ballistic just because someone mumbled something under their breath.

One doesn't really see that much with other professions. People (including myself) make comments about lawyers all the time, but I've never heard of any lawyer taking it personally or making a big thing out of it. There's constant denigration of people who do menial jobs, such as janitor or burger flipper, but nobody seems to care. But criticize a cop, and it's like the whole world has to come to an end. Why do you suppose that is?

The politicians make the laws, the people elect the politicians. The police enforce the law, layers litigate the law.

So, ultimately, it is the responsibility of the people to correct the law if they don't like it.

The police are also part of the people. In fact, I've seen police officers testify before the legislature (and even before Congress on occasion), since some lawmakers value their opinions in the process of making the law.

In other words, it's just as much your responsibility as it is mine or the rest of the people.

Your pontificating about human rights, freedom, liberty and justice for all is a fine bit of rhetoric. However, every arrest made is because one or more people is denying someone else their rights, freedom, and liberty.

Every arrest? I seriously doubt that. What about victimless crimes? What about cases where people were exercising their lawful Constitutional rights?

I'll try to tone down my criticisms of the police, but you make it very difficult for me to do that when you try to feed me such utter BS as this.

So, you want the police to ignore the letter of the law. For who? Whites, Blacks, left handed people, everybody?

Perhaps they can think more in terms of the spirit of the law.

Every time I have ignored "the letter of the law", and I have, numerous times, based upon my own judgement I created two problems.
1) I was not responsible for being a judge, that was not part of my remit when it comes to the law. What if my personal judgement was different than yours, since you imply you could do better. You would still complain, right?

Not necessarily. It would depend on the circumstances. It would depend on whether or not any actual harm was being done. What would be the worst thing that could happen by letting someone go?

2) Every time I opted for selective enforcement, the next guy I arrested for the same offense was being treated more harshly than the last guy. Fair?

Again, it depends on the circumstances. There is, of course, the old trope about how it's much easier for good-looking young women to talk their way out of a traffic citation than it is for their male counterparts.

The point I'm making here is that, in my opinion, "I was just following orders" is not a valid justification, in and of itself. Sometimes one has to question orders. Sometimes one has to question the law.

Police Officers are infinitely more tuned into what is going on around them than you are.

Your opinion is noted.

If they're so attuned to what is going on around them, then they should be aware of what the public needs and where the problems of society are the most acute. If there's a law that isn't working or is a bad law, then it seems the ones who enforce it should be the ones who are most aware of this (if what you're saying is true). A lot of times, you hear cops pass the buck and say "I don't make the law, I just enforce it. I'm just doing my job." Even you said as much when you said "the politicians make the laws."

I get that, but all we ever hear from the police is how disrespected they feel, and they would rather that we, the people, just tamely submit and respect their authority no matter what. But the people also tend to disrespect politicians and the government, so the disrespect for the police is tied to that.

Bottom line, you want to make a police officer a gumby to twist into any configuration you think is best.

This is what many demand, we want exemptions based upon our politics, race, gender, whatever.

Sadly, you are getting your wish in some cities. ANTIFA can virtually take control of downtown Portland when they choose, and the police loosely enforce perimeters, yet make no effort to stop the law breaking within the perimeter. You might remember the Conservative reporter who met the criteria of being great by the left, he was a homosexual, and a member of a minority race. However, he is a Conservative, hated by ANTIFA, and they beat the hell out of him and stole his camera, and THE POLICE JUST WATCHED, because they were under orders not to intercede.

This is what happens when policing becomes the victim of of political wars and radical governments. This is the ugly side of selective enforcement, and there is your true fascism.

Politicians have always put pressure on the Police for their advantage, but it is occurring in some jurisdictions in a very alarming fashion. The enforcement of the law is thrown out the window.

 

[Father Heathen]

No, just wearing the uniform does not make one a hero.

There are many police departments in many states. From two officers, to thousands.

There are variances in the amount of training and it's quality. In my day, there were police officers in parts of the country that had limited training, or none.

There were corrupt departments, way back Denver PD was at the top of the list. New Orleans PD, was the most amazingly corrupt department in the 80's and 90's, there are abject horror stories about what they did.

I worked in California, a pioneer in the POST system for police officers, PEACE OFFICERS STANDARDS AND TRAINING. In this system the state sets the amount of training required in an approved academy, the specific types of training, the curriculum, hiring standards, regular re training, and very specific standards for performance and evaluation.

In this Ca. was rare in 1969 when I started, today many states, if not all, have adopted similar standards.

Departments can exceed the standard, I know of a number that require bachelors degrees to apply.

Of course this doesn't eliminate mistakes, or incompetence at a given point or corruption, but it goes a very long way in doing so.

I believe these things are heavily exaggerated by people who want to believe them. Most are lies, or both sides aren't reported.

So, what makes a hero a hero. Do you think chasing someone on foot who has a gun is heroic? Would you do it?

My cousin, an Officer in N. Ca. was chasing a suspect across back yards, over the wooden fences. The fourth fence he was shot in the face by the suspect who was waiting for him. He lost an eye and had other injuries and lost his career. Is he a hero? would you do it?

Here is the point, most police officers do like things on a regular basis from year to year. They are seeing much more violence than in my day, in my jurisdiction. I think they are heroic.

Uh, where did I say cops couldn't be heroes? Don't twist my words.

 

[Subduction Zone]

Every arrest? I seriously doubt that. What about victimless crimes? What about cases where people were exercising their lawful Constitutional rights?

Yes, every arrest. Unfortunately sometimes it is the police denying those rights.

 

[Milton Platt]

Juries often let cops on trial get away with murder because they were indoctrinated to think cops are infallible like the Pope.

Some think only cops should have guns but not regular citizens. Where does it say in the Second Amendment that being armed is the "exclusive privilege of police"?

I'm sick of it when cops' cheap plastic badges are worn as some crown of honor.

Some think that anybody who kills a cop on duty should automatically get the death penalty. Are the lives of cops who volunteer for their jobs more sacred than even the lives of innocent babies who sometimes are murdered?

When people venerate cops above ordinary citizens, the whole idea of American liberty and constitutionality is put in grave danger. This dangerous attitude leads to tyranny.

I don't see any of that as "over veneration". What is "normal" veneration, anyway? How do you measure and categorize something like veneration?
The ordinary citizen does not put themselves in the line of fire during work hours.....I get why the deserve respect for what they do. I have never seen a plastic police badge...maybe that's a new trend? It would save taxpayer money.
Can you give specific examples of over veneration? It would help.

 

[shmogie]

Uh, where did I say cops couldn't be heroes? Don't twist my words.

I agreed with your words re wearing the uniform.

Am I not allowed to make my own point without it being "twisting your words".

 

[Good-Ole-Rebel]

I have respect for the law and law enforcement. But the position does lend itself to bullying and aggressive behaviour. Whether it draws people with that tendency or creates that tendency, It will be seen. And in a small town, it lends itself to cronyism.

Several years ago anyone in law enforcement could purchase guns without going through background checks. That, however, has changed. I later found out it was because they were prone to domestic violence.

Good-Ole-Rebel

 

[shmogie]

If there's anything specific of mine that I wrote that you wish to address, then please do so. If not, then I'll just chalk this up to the usual complaints.

But this is related to a generalized observation I've had about police officers: They can't take any form of criticism or comment without viewing it as some kind of "attack." I've seen videos of cops going ballistic just because someone mumbled something under their breath.

One doesn't really see that much with other professions. People (including myself) make comments about lawyers all the time, but I've never heard of any lawyer taking it personally or making a big thing out of it. There's constant denigration of people who do menial jobs, such as janitor or burger flipper, but nobody seems to care. But criticize a cop, and it's like the whole world has to come to an end. Why do you suppose that is?



The police are also part of the people. In fact, I've seen police officers testify before the legislature (and even before Congress on occasion), since some lawmakers value their opinions in the process of making the law.

In other words, it's just as much your responsibility as it is mine or the rest of the people.



Every arrest? I seriously doubt that. What about victimless crimes? What about cases where people were exercising their lawful Constitutional rights?

I'll try to tone down my criticisms of the police, but you make it very difficult for me to do that when you try to feed me such utter BS as this.



Perhaps they can think more in terms of the spirit of the law.



Not necessarily. It would depend on the circumstances. It would depend on whether or not any actual harm was being done. What would be the worst thing that could happen by letting someone go?



Again, it depends on the circumstances. There is, of course, the old trope about how it's much easier for good-looking young women to talk their way out of a traffic citation than it is for their male counterparts.

The point I'm making here is that, in my opinion, "I was just following orders" is not a valid justification, in and of itself. Sometimes one has to question orders. Sometimes one has to question the law.



Your opinion is noted.

If they're so attuned to what is going on around them, then they should be aware of what the public needs and where the problems of society are the most acute. If there's a law that isn't working or is a bad law, then it seems the ones who enforce it should be the ones who are most aware of this (if what you're saying is true). A lot of times, you hear cops pass the buck and say "I don't make the law, I just enforce it. I'm just doing my job." Even you said as much when you said "the politicians make the laws."

I get that, but all we ever hear from the police is how disrespected they feel, and they would rather that we, the people, just tamely submit and respect their authority no matter what. But the people also tend to disrespect politicians and the government, so the disrespect for the police is tied to that.

As a citizen, a citizen, as a concerned LEO I can voice opinions regarding the law, but the power to change it only exists with the politicians.

Review my career, look at every arrest I made, review my court testimony, interview every Officer that worked under my supervision, then call me the worst LEO that ever lived. Fine, your opinion is based upon your interpretation of facts and I can also use fact as a response.

Personal attack may sting but I can offer a defense based upon the reason for your criticism.

However, when you impugn every officer, in every state and territory with blanket statements how can I defend against that? Blanket statements like"they are all nazi's" cannot be proven, and is based in pure prejudice, and prejudice angers me.

Like all cops. and many people, I have opinions about lawyers, that effected my decision not to go to law school.

However, I assure you that if in the presence of a lawyer, I said "ALL lawyers are bottom dwelling muck suckers" I would have an angry lawyer on my hands. Perhaps not all would respond this way, if it was said as a joke or to a friend lawyer, but if I was serious, there would be anger, or just a stone wall.

We are adept at ignoring epithets, I have been called every name in the book and some you have never heard, and ignored it. Yet, when I am in a supposedly reasoned conversation this prejudice arises against me and all Officers, I do not like it.

There are no such thing as victimless crimes. Prostitution is not victimless, prostitutes are exposed to many diseases, marriages are destroyed, prostitutes are beaten up and murdered. Drug abuse has all kinds of victims. I believe these should be legalized with strong control, but the facts are the facts.

Every crime is against the people, the people are the victims.

The Police have the power they exercise. If they abuse it, courts are strong in providing remedies to the victims of that abuse. However, those who believe a cop is abusing power should never resist. They rack up more violations, and they are going to jail, the easy way or the hard way, but they are going. That's just the way it is.

BTW, In the departments for which I worked, and the one I headed, I never saw a case of illegal arrest, or excessive force. I saw one case for the Sheriff's Department of the county. I was very familiar with what went on in three surrounding cities, and I knew of one case. This was over 25 years. There may have been cases kept secret and settled out of court, but I never knew about them, and it didn't happen where I worked.

In big cities the cops know exactly what the problems of the neighborhoods they patrol are. In the rundown and crime ridden area's, they complain about gangs fighting over the drugs market, poverty, lack of discipline and lack of real learning in the schools, oppression of the concerned and good people. Who listens to them? They are told "keep the lid on", with less and less of the resources they need. NO ONE who can is willing to address these issues head on.

 

[shmogie]

I have respect for the law and law enforcement. But the position does lend itself to bullying and aggressive behaviour. Whether it draws people with that tendency or creates that tendency, It will be seen. And in a small town, it lends itself to cronyism.

Several years ago anyone in law enforcement could purchase guns without going through background checks. That, however, has changed. I later found out it was because they were prone to domestic violence.

Good-Ole-Rebel

Once again, No one can prove that the profession "draws people prone to being bullies", or that the police are "prone to domestic violence". A police Officers is required to carry a firearm 24 hours per day. The on duty firearm MAY be provided by the department, bot the off duty one. So, if they already have these guns what effect will buying more will have on potential domestic violence?

I have reviewed psychological reports on literally hundreds of potential officers, few had bullying profiles.

They usually have profiles indicating a trait of clear views of right and wrong, and most don't have shy, reserved personalities, bot good in an Officer.

Does the job change them ? Yes. From my own experience. I was a trusting, very compassionate young man. Time and time again I was lied to and taken advantage of by drug addicts. Now, I would never believe one on anything, I would never again give them money "to feed their kids", I would never trust them , if they said there was stars in the sky I would have trouble believing them.

Police Officers have a high rate of suicide and alcoholism, this is a statistical fact. Cynicism about trying to solve problems that can never be solved, depression from seeing the dregs of humanity on a daily basis, the physical danger at times causes these.

Domestic violence, I don't know about any stats on that.

 

[shmogie]

He worked for me 10 or 20 years ago.

"Informant"?
He worked for me for several years, & was a residential tenant too.
How much better can one person know another?
Oh, I also knew his girlfriend cuz she worked at a hardware store I frequented.
He beat her up, & threatened her family if she reported it.
I suppose it could all be some massive conspiracy orchestrated to make cops look bad.
Anyway, the point was that he was a bully.
There were other symptoms too.

Sorry, informant, one who conveys information, old habits.

Why was he no longer a Police Officer?

"Massive conspiracy"? What are you talking about?

A bad apple in Mi. and what he does does not constitute a conspiracy.

 

[Revoltingest]

Sorry, informant, one who conveys information, old habits.

Why was he no longer a Police Officer?

"Massive conspiracy"? What are you talking about?

A bad apple in Mi. and what he does does not constitute a conspiracy.

I'm pretty sure he's no longer one based upon reports from mutual acquaintances.
Anyway, the point is that the power he had would attract bullies like him.

 

[Valjean]

How do you know that?

History -- and experience.