I'm ready now

[Osal]

Can you explain this ultimate destiny and how it is achieved?

Can you also explain how those who believe in gods can be atheists? Is it because you have no belief in a creator God?

The term moksha is used in Hinduism, Jainism and Buddhism. It means release from the cycle of birth, old age, sickness and death.

How to achieve moksha varies widely. In Buddhism, this can be in the Eightfold Path. The Buddha sat beneath the Bodhi Tree for 40 days/nights and meditated. Naropa was hit on the forehead with a sandal by his teacher, Tilopa , and he became enlightened in that moment.

 

[JayJayDee]

The term moksha is used in Hinduism, Jainism and Buddhism. It means release from the cycle of birth, old age, sickness and death.

How to achieve moksha varies widely. In Buddhism, this can be in the Eightfold Path. The Buddha sat beneath the Bodhi Tree for 40 days/nights and meditated. Naropa was hit on the forehead with a sandal by his teacher, Tilopa , and he became enlightened in that moment.

Thank you.

Do Hindus and Buddhists see themselves as brothers in a religious sense? Do you have interchangeable beliefs?

Do both accept the teaching of reincarnation until they reach the highest state of being? What do you believe this highest state of being to be like? Where do you see it taking place? Is there a heaven in your belief?

 

[von bek]

Do both accept the teaching of reincarnation until they reach the highest state of being? What do you believe this highest state of being to be like? Where do you see it taking place? Is there a heaven in your belief?

As Buddhists, we typically will use the word rebirth instead of reincarnation. Some people use the two words interchangeably; but, there are some deep differences between Buddhism and Hinduism, deep enough that different words help avoid confusion.

The Buddha teaches that there is no soul, we are a collection of aggregates of mind and body. (Five aggregates: material form, feeling, perceptions, volitional formations, and consciousness.) There is no soul that transmigrates from body to body in Buddhism, (Hinduism does teach an immortal soul) there are simply the aggregates conditioning each other and flowing in an endless cycle of cause and effect. The Buddha was not a materialist, so the mind is not seen as merely an emergent property of the body. Because of this, the death of a single body does not end the cycle of cause and effect.

There are heavenly realms that the Buddha speaks of. These heavens though are not eternal. Anyone born into a heavenly realm may have a long life-span; but, they will still grow old, suffer, die, and be reborn again. As you can see, heaven is not the ultimate goal of Buddhist practice, Nibbana is. (Nirvana is the Sanskrit form you are probably familiar with.) Nibbana is the total cessation of suffering and rebirth.

Here is a link to one of my favorite sites. I practice Theravada Buddhism, and that is the tradition this site represents:
Access to Insight

Here is a link to the wikipedia page that describes the Buddhist concept of the aggregates and may help you to understand what I only briefly mentioned:
Skandha - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

 

[Deidre]

The one thing I'll say, is I don't really consider the idea of reincarnation. I also don't know what I feel about heaven, really. There are so many variations of it out in the religious 'marketplace,' that it just seems like a trite man-made thought, that stems from our discomfort of living this life fully. This life most likely, is all there is. I'm open to the idea that there COULD BE an afterlife, but like the Abrahamic faiths, I don't want to tangle myself back up in thinking about it all, because it negates the beauty of this life. That is how I think of it all, to be honest. I don't begrudge others from believing as they wish, but to me, what is unfolding during my meditation as of late, is how to live this life fully. Presently. Openly. For what it is, and not looking at what might follow it. What might follow it may be a dark hole of nothingness. It is the here and now that we should focus on, and that will build a better planet.

 

[Deidre]

JayJayDee...I'm happy to see you in this thread, for what it's worth. Are you interested in exploring Buddhism?

 

[Twilight Hue]

Can you explain this ultimate destiny and how it is achieved?

Can you also explain how those who believe in gods can be atheists? Is it because you have no belief in a creator God?

It's not revelant in Zen as per this dir. It's a matter primarily involving Hinduism.

 

[von bek]

The one thing I'll say, is I don't really consider the idea of reincarnation. I also don't know what I feel about heaven, really. There are so many variations of it out in the religious 'marketplace,' that it just seems like a trite man-made thought, that stems from our discomfort of living this life fully. This life most likely, is all there is. I'm open to the idea that there COULD BE an afterlife, but like the Abrahamic faiths, I don't want to tangle myself back up in thinking about it all, because it negates the beauty of this life. That is how I think of it all, to be honest. I don't begrudge others from believing as they wish, but to me, what is unfolding during my meditation as of late, is how to live this life fully. Presently. Openly. For what it is, and not looking at what might follow it. What might follow it may be a dark hole of nothingness. It is the here and now that we should focus on, and that will build a better planet.

The Buddha always encourages our focus to be on the present moment. He warns people away from obsessing over both past and future lives. If you are regretful about your past or anxious for your future, you create the conditions for continued suffering.

 

[Twilight Hue]

It's likely why Zen becomes appealing as a viable direct practice. It boils down to just sitting without any type of wordplay and thoughts brought into each session, leaving experiences as they directly are.

Even instances where wordplay and thoughts do occur in varying intensity are not excluded, yet in each instance not compounded further, but left simply for what it is.

It's why metaphysical and speculative matters are not considered nor regarded in engauged sessions as eventually "It" becomes apparant.

 

[Deidre]

The Buddha always encourages our focus to be on the present moment. He warns people away from obsessing over both past and future lives. If you are regretful about your past or anxious for your future, you create the conditions for continued suffering.

thank you. totally agree, this is what i've been discovering/learning.

 

[Aupmanyav]

Yes, the ultimate destiny, most Hindus believe in is 'Moksha'. Hinduism also has an atheistic philosophy, which is called 'Naastik'

But they do not agree on what it means - in company of their deity, merger with their deity or none of these. For me, 'moksha' is when all questions in one's mind are answered. No more doubts. I have already attained 'moksha'. It is a very nice feeling.

 

[spiritualhitchhiker]

But they do not agree on what it means - in company of their deity, merger with their deity or none of these. For me, 'moksha' is when all questions in one's mind are answered. No more doubts. I have already attained 'moksha'. It is a very nice feeling.

You have a wrong definition of 'moksha' then.

 

[Aupmanyav]

Can you also explain how those who believe in gods can be atheists? Is it because you have no belief in a creator God?

As you know I am an atheist Hindu. I do not believe in a creator God or in other Gods and Goddesses, though they are dear to me, like Hercules and Athena are to Europeans. We have created many interesting stories around them with important social messages. These stories still guide us. They are our cultural beacons.

You have a wrong definition of 'moksha' then.

Ha ha ha. Say 'your definition is not the same as mine' and that is no problem.

Do Hindus and Buddhists see themselves as brothers in a religious sense? Do you have interchangeable beliefs? Do both accept the teaching of reincarnation until they reach the highest state of being? What do you believe this highest state of being to be like? Where do you see it taking place? Is there a heaven in your belief?

What an individual believes is a different thing. However, Hindus have no problem about learning from the teachings of other 'dharmic religions' (Jainism, Buddhism and Sikhism, that does not leave anything to be learned from other religions) and we rever the greats of these religions as much as we rever our greats. Buddha for us is the ninth avatara of Lord Vishnu. I have two Gurus, Buddha and Adi (the first) Sankaracharya. No, I do not believe in creation, God, soul, birth, death, heaven, hell, salvation (my meaning already given), deliverance, grace, higher or lower state of being. 'State of being' being a illusion.

 

[Aupmanyav]

The term moksha is used in Hinduism, Jainism and Buddhism. It means release from the cycle of birth, old age, sickness and death.

If one understands correctly there is no birth, old age, sickness and death, no creation also. What was created anew when you took birth? Nothing. It was just a rearrangement of what was already existing. Nothing dies when one dies (so to say). The persons atoms and molecules are just as frolicky and they transfer to millions of other living and non-living objects/things. If you leave this sense of me, mine, then there is no old age or sickness. What is happening is to this body on which you have no claim. You are just a temporary phenomenon. And ithese are the forces of nature which create different forms and the electrical and chemical response in your material mind which gives you the feeling of something existing and something created. Our books say 'Brahma satyam, jagan-mithya'. It is this eternal substance (energy, physical energy) which forms all things in the universe. What we perceive is not the reality.

 

[JayJayDee]

JayJayDee...I'm happy to see you in this thread, for what it's worth. Are you interested in exploring Buddhism?

I am interested in understanding the belief systems of others. It helps me to talk to people if I understand what they believe. To tell you the truth, I investigated the eastern religions a little when I left the Anglican church, but the idolatry really put me off, so I didn't really go any further. I guess I just can't get past the fact that the Bible's God forbids the use of idols in worship. But that is just me. Someone raised with Catholicism would probably not baulk at such things, but it impacted on me.

I understand that all of us must follow the path dictated by our own heart...how can it be otherwise?
I have found my spiritual home....I love my God with all that I am, but I also respect the fact that not everyone recognises him as their God.

I wish you well with your spiritual journey.

 

[Deidre]

If one understands correctly there is no birth, old age, sickness and death, no creation also. What was created anew when you took birth? Nothing. It was just a rearrangement of what was already existing. Nothing dies when one dies (so to say). The persons atoms and molecules are just as frolicky and they transfer to millions of other living and non-living objects/things. If you leave this sense of me, mine, then there is no old age or sickness. What is happening is to this body on which you have no claim. You are just a temporary phenomenon. And ithese are the forces of nature which create different forms and the electrical and chemical response in your material mind which gives you the feeling of something existing and something created. Our books say 'Brahma satyam, jagan-mithya'. It is this eternal substance (energy, physical energy) which forms all things in the universe. What we perceive is not the reality.

Now this is quite amazing to me. Thank u for posting it.

 

[Osal]

If one understands correctly there is no birth, old age, sickness and death, no creation also.

Is there an appreciable difference between what you say here and nihilism?

 

[Osal]

That is how I think of it all, to be honest.
I don't begrudge others from believing as they wish, but to me, what is unfolding during my meditation as of late, is how to live this life fully. Presently. Openly. For what it is, and not looking at what might follow it.

Then you should read some of Chogyam Trungpa Rinpoche's stuff.

 

[Aupmanyav]

Is there an appreciable difference between what you say here and nihilism?

It is diametrically opposite to nihilism. Nihilism says 'nothing exists', Advaita says 'it does'. All Hindu philosophies agree to this. Not even Buddha differs.

 

[Osal]

It is diametrically opposite to nihilism. Nihilism says 'nothing exists'

Then I think you shuld explain yourself because what I quoted earlier would seem to contradict what you just said.

No creation? Sounds nihilistic.

Now the Buddha taught that in emptiness there is no <fill in the blank> but that's not the same as what you seem to be asserting. So, if you could clear this up.......

 

[Aupmanyav]

No creation? Sounds nihilistic.

Now the Buddha taught that in emptiness there is no <fill in the blank> but that's not the same as what you seem to be asserting. So, if you could clear this up ..

No creation means nothing new and not no existence. Buddhist 'Sunyata' (emptiness*) and 'Anatta' (not being substantial*) too, do not mean non-existence.
*Nearest equivalents in simple English

The meaning of emptiness as contemplated here is explained at M I.297 and S IV.296-97 as the "emancipation of the mind by emptiness" (suññatā cetovimutti) being consequent upon the realization that "this world is empty of self or anything pertaining to self" (suññam idaṃ attena vā attaniyena vā).
Śūnyatā - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

"For Nagarjuna, it is not merely sentient beings that are empty of ātman; all phenomena (dharmas) are without any svabhava (literally "own-nature" or "self-nature"), and thus without any underlying essence; they are "empty" of being independent, .."
Nagarjuna (perhaps c. 150–250 CE), arguably the most influential scholar within the Mahayana tradition.