I'm now undecided how I'll vote in 2024

[PoetPhilosopher]

I may vote for Trump or Desantis in 2024. I have my serious concerns about some things the Republicans may or may not do in the future, don't get me wrong. But I live in a deeply Republican area and realized that once I got out of the head space of worrying about how Republicans will treat a transgender person, that I've started to meet a lot of Republicans, attend barbecues, and have intriguing conversations. I actually even feel safer now because I've made friends with a few who are strongly protective of themselves, their friends, and their family.

Like I said, I don't see a perfect solution to anything in the world. But I feel I've been seeing a trend lately among the Democrat side. It's take a really unfortunate news story, apply it to everyone, try to create new ways of doing things and also "cancel" people from it, when the better solution, I feel, would simply be to go out and meet people and see if the average person from that group is that way at all, and it often kind of isn't like that.

I also think the Roe vs. Wade issue is more complicated than just shaming people for "not honoring a woman's body", as a lot of people in the country seem to be a part of a religious movement that interprets abortion as wrong. However, I'd also like to see more catering to other religions than just Christianity too, and also to the lack of religion. But I no longer feel that the majority should have to "walk on eggshells" in a nation where they're the majority, that they deserve consideration too. At the same time though, I do support legislation which deals with the issue of pregnancies created from rape.

I feel that in my years of supporting the Democrat party, I've gotten nowhere quickly. I've seen Big Spending in all the wrong areas, inflation, talk not action in the face of problems, and stirring things up about problems that don't even really seem to exist.

Then add to that that I feel that one of Trump's last speeches he did, when he came to Illinois, was powerful, and addressed people well. You won't get it covered well from world news though, the stuff that he said. And me seeing a speech unaltered in its entirety, did way better for me than just watching the world news, even if I were to switch over to Fox News (which I often can't make sense from)

So I'm not saying for sure that I'll vote Republican, just that I'm now thinking about it. I watched a movie awhile back where a villian poisoned a water supply but also had the antidote, to look like a hero when he saved people who drank the water. It just reminded me of what I now see as the Democrat approach to some problems: "Create a worldwide ideological problem out of a lone incident or two or three, try to talk about it at length and then talk about how you made things better from talking at length about it, then reap the benefits of being seen heroic from it."

But I'm still pretty neutral on the subject. There are things I like and dislike about both sides.

 

[PureX]

There are things I like and dislike about both sides.

You should probably wait until you see some actual candidates. I don't think Trump will be one of them. And who knows, maybe the democrats will realize that no one is buying their BS anymore, and decide to run a real candidate instead of an empty suit.

 

[Debater Slayer]

I may vote for Trump or Desantis in 2024. I have my serious concerns about some things the Republicans may or may not do in the future, don't get me wrong. But I live in a deeply Republican area and realized that once I got out of the head space of worrying about how Republicans will treat a transgender person, that I've started to meet a lot of Republicans, attend barbecues, and have intriguing conversations. I actually even feel safer now because I've made friends with a few who are strongly protective of themselves, their friends, and their family.

Often, one-issue voting tends to give an incomplete picture and not take into account equally crucial policies. Even if the GOP platform were completely benign toward trans people (and, as you know, many other trans people would disagree on that), it would still have many other problems.

The push toward increased conservative Christian influence on legislation and the efforts to overturn rulings that protect civil rights and freedoms they disapprove of come to mind here. Per the recent SCOTUS ruling on Roe v. Wade, these include contraceptives, same-sex relationships, and same-sex marriage.

I also think the Roe vs. Wade issue is more complicated than just shaming people for "not honoring a woman's body", as a lot of people in the country seem to be a part of a religious movement that interprets abortion as wrong. However, I'd also like to see more catering to other religions than just Christianity too, and also to the lack of religion. But I no longer feel that the majority should have to "walk on eggshells" in a nation where they're the majority, that they deserve consideration too. At the same time though, I do support legislation which deals with the issue of pregnancies created from rape.

Majority or not, when it comes to issues that are simply not the business of anyone but the person making them--such as abortion and marriage--only they should be able to decide them. At one point, many also wanted "consideration" in having a say to uphold racial segregation and the ban on interracial marriage. Their beliefs didn't warrant such consideration back then due to the harm and infringement on rights they caused to other groups.

For many women, there are also far more reasons to get an abortion than pregnancy from rape. It seems deeply concerning that the bar for reproductive rights in some states is now so low that making an exception only for pregnancies from rape is viewed by some as sufficient--and by some as too much and a concession.

So I'm not saying for sure that I'll vote Republican, just that I'm now thinking about it. I watched a movie awhile back where a villian poisoned a water supply but also had the antidote, to look like a hero when he saved people who drank the water. It just reminded me of what I now see as the Democrat approach to some problems: "Create a worldwide ideological problem out of a lone incident or two or three, try to talk about it at length and then talk about how you made things better from talking at length about it, then reap the benefits of being seen heroic from it."

But I'm still pretty neutral on the subject. There are things I like and dislike about both sides.

I have long been of the opinion that the Democratic Party are not the real solution to the long-term issues facing the U.S., especially aggressive and interventionist foreign policy. They have frequently supported military adventurism, failed to act in the best interests of civil rights and freedoms, and run ineffectual, hawkish candidates like Hillary Clinton and Obama.

Thriving on variations of "we are the lesser evil" can only go on for so long before it hits a breaking point and requires major reform--and now that the SCOTUS majority are actively working to undo landmark rulings protecting hard-won freedoms and rights, the Democratic Party may well be at that breaking point. They need to effect real change if they don't want to become an even bigger part of the problem than they are now.

 

[Debater Slayer]

But I live in a deeply Republican area and realized that once I got out of the head space of worrying about how Republicans will treat a transgender person, that I've started to meet a lot of Republicans, attend barbecues, and have intriguing conversations. I actually even feel safer now because I've made friends with a few who are strongly protective of themselves, their friends, and their family.

Parenthetically, this feels relatable in that where I live, many people who voice support for laws and policies against specific groups may not necessarily be hostile to a person from said groups when interacting with them on a personal level--which sometimes entails realizing that they had an inaccurate, oversimplified, or overly abstract notion thereof. I have experienced it first-hand with people who supported the death penalty for apostasy but had no problem being friends with me, for example. Some of them have ended up changing their views over time when, to them, atheists turned from a mere abstract group into a group that includes someone they personally know and care about.

This discrepancy between how some people treat others on a personal level and how they believe the law should treat them fascinates me. I suspect it often has to do with being able to attach a personality to someone as opposed to thinking of people like that person as distant members of an abstract group. One can see how strong exposure is when considering examples such as Dick Cheney, who became supportive of same-sex marriage when the issue became personal by way of his daughter's orientation.

Then there are others who befriend people from specific groups but still vote against their rights or support laws targeting them anyway. I have also seen this. I'm not sure what the explanation for it is from a psychological standpoint, but it's also quite interesting due to the stark contrast in treatment of certain people on a strictly personal versus a political or legal level.

 

[Aštra’el]

I may vote for Trump or Desantis in 2024. I have my serious concerns about some things the Republicans may or may not do in the future, don't get me wrong. But I live in a deeply Republican area and realized that once I got out of the head space of worrying about how Republicans will treat a transgender person, that I've started to meet a lot of Republicans, attend barbecues, and have intriguing conversations. I actually even feel safer now because I've made friends with a few who are strongly protective of themselves, their friends, and their family.

Like I said, I don't see a perfect solution to anything in the world. But I feel I've been seeing a trend lately among the Democrat side. It's take a really unfortunate news story, apply it to everyone, try to create new ways of doing things and also "cancel" people from it, when the better solution, I feel, would simply be to go out and meet people and see if the average person from that group is that way at all, and it often kind of isn't like that.

I also think the Roe vs. Wade issue is more complicated than just shaming people for "not honoring a woman's body", as a lot of people in the country seem to be a part of a religious movement that interprets abortion as wrong. However, I'd also like to see more catering to other religions than just Christianity too, and also to the lack of religion. But I no longer feel that the majority should have to "walk on eggshells" in a nation where they're the majority, that they deserve consideration too. At the same time though, I do support legislation which deals with the issue of pregnancies created from rape.

I feel that in my years of supporting the Democrat party, I've gotten nowhere quickly. I've seen Big Spending in all the wrong areas, inflation, talk not action in the face of problems, and stirring things up about problems that don't even really seem to exist.

Then add to that that I feel that one of Trump's last speeches he did, when he came to Illinois, was powerful, and addressed people well. You won't get it covered well from world news though, the stuff that he said. And me seeing a speech unaltered in its entirety, did way better for me than just watching the world news, even if I were to switch over to Fox News (which I often can't make sense from)

So I'm not saying for sure that I'll vote Republican, just that I'm now thinking about it. I watched a movie awhile back where a villian poisoned a water supply but also had the antidote, to look like a hero when he saved people who drank the water. It just reminded me of what I now see as the Democrat approach to some problems: "Create a worldwide ideological problem out of a lone incident or two or three, try to talk about it at length and then talk about how you made things better from talking at length about it, then reap the benefits of being seen heroic from it."

But I'm still pretty neutral on the subject. There are things I like and dislike about both sides.

So now you see it. The mischaracterizations, the incessant need to classify the “other” into easily dismissible categories of “-isms” and “-ists”, “anti-this” and “pro-that”, the exaggerated hate, the cognitive dissonance, the blatant lies and hypocrisy…

The simple act of getting out and making friends with people of different worldviews goes a long way towards opening one’s eyes and seeing past the political propaganda. If only more people were willing to do that.

 

[Debater Slayer]

The simple act of getting out and making friends with people of different worldviews goes a long way towards opening one’s eyes and seeing past the political propaganda. If only more people were willing to do that.

You say that like many on this forum don't already have friends and know people of various different backgrounds and worldviews. Some of us even live among them as a minority.

But considering that you have previously posted in support of anti-LGBT laws, blasphemy laws, and blanket abortion bans, I would suggest taking into account the effects of such laws on your friends' safety and well-being--assuming you are friends with people from any of the groups against whom you support legal and social crackdowns, that is.

 

[PoetPhilosopher]

these include contraceptives, same-sex relationships, and same-sex marriage.

We will see. There was just one justice that really spoke against that.

This discrepancy between how some people treat others on a personal level and how they believe the law should treat them fascinates me. I suspect it often has to do with being able to attach a personality to someone as opposed to thinking of people like that person as distant members of an abstract group. One can see how strong exposure is when considering examples such as Dick Cheney, who became supportive of same-sex marriage when the issue became personal by way of his daughter's orientation.

Yeah, I don't know. The Republicans I've been meeting lately, are mostly just against trans activists, and not the trans people they meet personally.

 

[PureX]

The main problem is that far too many people vote selfishly, and emotionally, instead of considering the well being of the republic as a whole. Democracy requires the participants to want to remain democratic. And that means they need to respect other people's right to be different. And to want different things. When we cannot or will not do that, and we just vote for our own agendas, we are failing the democratic system, and sooner or later it will fail us in return. One issue voting is both selfish and stupid, and is bad for everyone in the end.

 

[Debater Slayer]

We will see. There was just one justice that really spoke against that.

He was writing for the majority, though. That makes his statements much more worrisome.

Yeah, I don't know. The Republicans I've been meeting lately, are mostly just against trans activists, and not the trans people they meet personally.

Of course, Republicans and conservatives are a very diverse group who are far from uniform, like everyone else. The end result of a vote for a problematic platform doesn't change, unfortunately, but understanding that black-and-white, overgeneralized demonization is often inaccurate is pretty useful.

 

[Aštra’el]

You say that like many on this forum don't already have friends and know people of various different backgrounds and worldviews. Some of us even live among them as a minority.

But considering that you have previously posted in support of anti-LGBT laws, blasphemy laws, and blanket abortion bans, I would suggest taking into account the effects of such laws on your friends' safety and well-being--assuming you are friends with people from any of the groups against whom you support legal and social crackdowns, that is.

How dare I support the law.

 

[Debater Slayer]

How dare I support the law.

Which law and in which country? The U.S. doesn't have blasphemy laws, yet you have previously supported those.

Besides, do you support any piece of legislation regardless of how it may affect your friends' lives? If so, that sounds quite unfortunate.

 

[Aštra’el]

Besides, do you support any piece of legislation regardless of how it may affect your friends' lives? If so, that sounds quite unfortunate.

I would encourage them to adapt.

 

[Hermit Philosopher]

I also think the Roe vs. Wade issue is more complicated than just shaming people for "not honoring a woman's body", as a lot of people in the country seem to be a part of a religious movement that interprets abortion as wrong. However, I'd also like to see more catering to other religions than just Christianity too, and also to the lack of religion. But I no longer feel that the majority should have to "walk on eggshells" in a nation where they're the majority, that they deserve consideration too. At the same time though, I do support legislation which deals with the issue of pregnancies created from rape.

Dear Snow White,

Nations are not for the majority alone; they are for everybody - because no one chooses where they are born. And, as not everybody is religious, Nations should not be run by religion. There are churches and parishes for that instead and, if one wishes, one can join one of those.

Also; if you place your vote only according to how you, yourself are treated, you are not voting in the interest of your Nation, but solely in the interest of yourself. That’s short-sighted, because one’s own place in the world is not static and when and how it changes, is not up to you.


Humbly
Hermit

 

[Jayhawker Soule]

I feel that in my years of supporting the Democrat party, I've gotten nowhere quickly. I've seen Big Spending in all the wrong areas, inflation, talk not action in the face of problems, and stirring things up about problems that don't even really seem to exist.

Thank you for a thoughtful and honest opening post. I believe that it represents a sentiment that all of us must better understand.

 

[Stevicus]

I may vote for Trump or Desantis in 2024. I have my serious concerns about some things the Republicans may or may not do in the future, don't get me wrong. But I live in a deeply Republican area and realized that once I got out of the head space of worrying about how Republicans will treat a transgender person, that I've started to meet a lot of Republicans, attend barbecues, and have intriguing conversations. I actually even feel safer now because I've made friends with a few who are strongly protective of themselves, their friends, and their family.

Like I said, I don't see a perfect solution to anything in the world. But I feel I've been seeing a trend lately among the Democrat side. It's take a really unfortunate news story, apply it to everyone, try to create new ways of doing things and also "cancel" people from it, when the better solution, I feel, would simply be to go out and meet people and see if the average person from that group is that way at all, and it often kind of isn't like that.

I also think the Roe vs. Wade issue is more complicated than just shaming people for "not honoring a woman's body", as a lot of people in the country seem to be a part of a religious movement that interprets abortion as wrong. However, I'd also like to see more catering to other religions than just Christianity too, and also to the lack of religion. But I no longer feel that the majority should have to "walk on eggshells" in a nation where they're the majority, that they deserve consideration too. At the same time though, I do support legislation which deals with the issue of pregnancies created from rape.

I feel that in my years of supporting the Democrat party, I've gotten nowhere quickly. I've seen Big Spending in all the wrong areas, inflation, talk not action in the face of problems, and stirring things up about problems that don't even really seem to exist.

Then add to that that I feel that one of Trump's last speeches he did, when he came to Illinois, was powerful, and addressed people well. You won't get it covered well from world news though, the stuff that he said. And me seeing a speech unaltered in its entirety, did way better for me than just watching the world news, even if I were to switch over to Fox News (which I often can't make sense from)

So I'm not saying for sure that I'll vote Republican, just that I'm now thinking about it. I watched a movie awhile back where a villian poisoned a water supply but also had the antidote, to look like a hero when he saved people who drank the water. It just reminded me of what I now see as the Democrat approach to some problems: "Create a worldwide ideological problem out of a lone incident or two or three, try to talk about it at length and then talk about how you made things better from talking at length about it, then reap the benefits of being seen heroic from it."

But I'm still pretty neutral on the subject. There are things I like and dislike about both sides.

Although I'm far from a bible-thumper, I do think there's some common sense in the idea that "you will know them by their fruits." That's how I look at politics, not at what they say, but by the results of their actions and choices.

For me, when the political rhetoric doesn't match the reality I see around me, then I take account. On any given day, I might see homeless people on the street, boarded-up storefronts, streets full of potholes, higher prices, and other signs of the people struggling on a day to day basis.

Then I hear phonies in politics and the press talk about how "America is better off" and "the economy is great!" "Don't worry, be happy" was another one of their favorite mantras.

Even AOC's $32,000 dress that said "Tax the rich," the message may have been acceptable, but it was done in a very garish and gaudy manner. It was almost like some kind of self-parody. A lot of liberals and Democrats pay a lot of lip service and pandering, but when it comes to actually following through and getting it done, they always fall woefully short.

Conservatives are a different breed of fish, but I don't see them as the "devils with horns" as some people do. After all, many in my extended family are/were conservatives, so I know them on a different level than what might be perceived by those on the outside looking in.

 

[Heyo]

There are things I like and dislike about both sides.

That's a good first step in realizing the false dichotomy you've fallen into.

 

[metis]

I may vote for Trump or Desantis in 2024.

Since you are spiritual, how could you even consider voting for Trump? Doesn't the rather clear-cut fact that he tried to overturn the 2020 election bother you? How are his actions there and elsewhere any reflection whatsoever of spirituality? Is groping women and then bragging about it "spiritual"? How about his appearance in a porn movie?

IMO, I guess you'll have to decide which is more important to you: spirituality or right-wing politics under Trump that could cost us our democracy?

My post to you is a one-and-out as I have no desire to debate this.

 

[tytlyf]

It's important to understand the policy differences of the parties rather than just following the herd

 

[PoetPhilosopher]

Since you are spiritual, how could you even consider voting for Trump? Doesn't the rather clear-cut fact that he tried to overturn the 2020 election bother you? How are his actions there and elsewhere any reflection whatsoever of spirituality? Is groping women and then bragging about it "spiritual"? How about his appearance in a porn movie?

IMO, I guess you'll have to decide which is more important to you: spirituality or right-wing politics under Trump that could cost us our democracy?

My post to you is a one-and-out as I have no desire to debate this.

Not sure why porn would bother me. I'm not a Christian, I'm a spiritual person of kind of my own breed, if you will.

Since you have no desire to debate, I won't argue the other points though, I'll just let them be for other people to consider.

 

[ADigitalArtist]

I'm definitely not voting republican. The US's current disastrous state most definitely includes decisions made by democrats, especially those who have fallen for corporate lobbying or who refuse to look at effective social programs in the veil of 'moderate centricism,' but the republican party is so far off its rocker that they are, to me, a beast far worse. Trump cultivated a garden for facists, some racist white supremacists/white replacement theory facists, some theocratic facists(whom we see now enacting a plethora of abortion bans, and turning their eyes on gay marriage, anti-trans laws and even undermining voting protections for black people and women), quite a few oligarchists keeping crypto-facism in their back pocket.

Dems just refused to effectively fight them. Too busy trying to keep up moderate appearance at best, taking corporate bribes at worse.

If I met DeSantis or Trump at a BBQ, they'd probably be really nice to me. Doesn't change that they've been monstrous to others and I can't just ignore it.

So what *do* I do? Vote third party? It might be a year where enough people are disenfranchised with the bipartisan choices where third party gets significant weight. Doubt it will be enough though.

Get involved in local politics? Always a worthy goal, we will probably make more of a difference bottom up than top down. Might pave a way for more candidate options in the future and will be directly related to improving local community.
But using states rights arguments to make pockets of bigotry angers me and I'd rather not leave them out of luck just because I don't live there.

Be gay, do crime? Civil (or uncivil) rebellion is always an option. But without large, unified organization they don't get much done. I do believe there will come a time where we tip so far into oligarchy that voting won't matter anymore. And then revolution will happen. But I'm not sure we're quite there yet.

Which would you choose?