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I'm ignorant, hence I'm an atheist!!!
- Thread starter lewisnotmiller
- Start date
Red Rover, Red Rover, we're calling lewis over.
Curious George
Veteran Member
That was my point, I do not think anyone can not take a side.
oldbadger
Skanky Old Mongrel!
Wot.....?....!
Agnostic:- One who believes that one cannot know whether or not God exists.
Atheist:- One who believes that God does not exist.
An agnostic has no theism, but an atheist has 'atheism'.
oldbadger
Skanky Old Mongrel!
Ahhhh....... fashions. And terms of reference.......
Back in the early 90's my daughter came home wearing 'boot-top' jeans.
I said, 'Blimey, Flairs are back!'
She went ballistic. Her boot-tops had widened trouser legs, and old flairs had widened trouser legs, but the TERM of description was most important! This was not 'retro'..... this was NEW!
Deists have super smooth memories.
Dementia? .... come over to Deism!
Sour grapes!
You get more attention and better services in stores if you're madly, deisticly attractive.
So why do Ozzies practice french accents before they go out courting, eh?
You couldn't pull a muscle with an Oz accent..........
Now agnostics don't have an agenda, like many different religions and beliefs......... and atheists.
Marisa
Well-Known Member
It's very slow to get started, so be patient. @paarsurrey , AronRa would be an example of an atheist who places himself a 7 on Dawkins' Scale, and if you listen to the podcast, he'll tell you why.
Couple of quick clarifications;
1) I mentioned you due to you asserting Deism as your belief of choice. A non-interventionist God is basically impossible to disprove.
2) You description of agnostic vs atheist is valid, but it's not the only way these terms are used. Commonly agnostic/gnostic is seen as a claim of knowledge (or fact) whilst theist/atheist is a claim of theism (or lack thereof).
So I'm an agnostic atheist in so far as I would happily agree I don't believe God exists (sure, you can say this is a claim) but don't for a second think I could prove that God doesn't exist (in particular, a non-interventionist God).
Now agnostics don't have an agenda, like many different religions and beliefs......... and atheists.
Everyone has 'an agenda'. But if you mean with relation to religion? I'd prefer to take it on an individual basis. I've met agnostics who clearly do have an agenda. Similarly, I've met theists and atheists who have agendas. Many people have agendas, it turns out.
In relation to religion, I try not to, honestly. I can't guarantee I don't, but I try not to.
Thief
Rogue Theologian
apply the word profound and you will find the intent and willfulness.
If you refuse to see.....none are so blind.
oldbadger
Skanky Old Mongrel!
I believe you.......
I do have one agenda........... I react to extremism somewhat negatively.
Hence my aggressive posts can in one thread be directed at religions, in the next at atheism, in the next at some secular OP.
I'm an anti-extremist extremist!
Marisa
Well-Known Member
I suppose in the end, we hate the most in others what we dislike in ourselves.I believe you.......
I do have one agenda........... I react to extremism somewhat negatively.
Hence my aggressive posts can in one thread be directed at religions, in the next at atheism, in the next at some secular OP.
I'm an anti-extremist extremist!
In response to the OP:
I am perhaps strange in that I came to my theism through atheism, but it astounds me how people in popular faiths jump into the deep end of the pool immediately. My process was more like:
1) Christian-identified mostly disinterested person. I was aware of biblical contradictions and conflicts with what Catholicism was teaching me from a very early age.
2) Extremely skeptical atheist and anti-theist. I was certainly looking for blood.
3) LaVey Satanist (Atheistic). Of course, I came to reading about this to trash it... But, something else happened. =)
3) Agnostic Satanist. No worship, but experiences which my previous skepticism couldn't explain nor address. I also start consciously rejecting the fascism present in LaVey Satanism.
4) Theistic Satanist in an auto-theistic sense recognizing satanic traits/principles within myself and honoring them. (Auto-theism) Worship in this context is self-respect.
5) #4 + add some awareness of the source of this resides outside myself as much as within... The illusion of separation had been shattered to some extent. (Satan exists, worship self+Satan) Worship moves to honoring Satan and Self.
6) #5 + add being able to understand that Satan exists consciously, but probably not like a human -- without a dualistic nature.
Does the anthropological Satan with horns and red skin exist and is he the creator? I haven't really a clue, and I don't start filling gaps or assuming such a creature has to have a personality or be human-like. It doesn't matter to me even if Satan is the first or only god or some sort of magically created archetype that is connected to our collective unconscious but it is the one I can experience directly in some manner. I think anyone can plainly see there is a gradual progression for me, and that's what I usually fail to understand about other supposed theists. They apparently use the word in the context of spiritual slavery and blind faith only. I mostly posted this to illustrate to the forum that such silliness doesn't have to be a component of a spiritual path. =)
My transition was largely the result of a constant process of meditation coupled with years of actual hard research, and a hobby of ceremonial and ritual magic. (I always liked the ritual part of religion without the pretense...) These things gradually altered my awareness, and my view just followed suit.
Anyway, I agree with the OP in that it is certainly OK to not know and any real approach to theistic Satanism approaches it from the angle of what _I_ personally can see, and what makes sense in a pragmatic and empirical sense.
As far as proving Satan's existence or some silly notion like that any attempt would be an obvious logical fallacy -- I can't even prove you exist due the fact that I only really perceive anyone through my filters... These filters may be deceived... Only a person lacking intelligence would get into such a discussion knowing there are no rulers that measure godliness.
My view is that ultimately a true spiritual path incorporates science and inner development and uses all of the information it has been given; this is the logical/spiritual position of most theistic Satanists (who actually barely believe in Satan initially.) Any other course is likely to lead one to error, or establish dogma which must be supported by blind faith and then the jig is up. Beliefs must be modified by understanding -- and one is only allow to believe what one can experience unless they are delusional. All experiences don't have to be proved through independent observation however and subjective evidence and data collection will do. We approach psychoanalysis from this angle of reasoning, and we can collect data and use consensus to make proofs as well. This remains my approach even to this day..
I am perhaps strange in that I came to my theism through atheism, but it astounds me how people in popular faiths jump into the deep end of the pool immediately. My process was more like:
1) Christian-identified mostly disinterested person. I was aware of biblical contradictions and conflicts with what Catholicism was teaching me from a very early age.
2) Extremely skeptical atheist and anti-theist. I was certainly looking for blood.
3) LaVey Satanist (Atheistic). Of course, I came to reading about this to trash it... But, something else happened. =)
3) Agnostic Satanist. No worship, but experiences which my previous skepticism couldn't explain nor address. I also start consciously rejecting the fascism present in LaVey Satanism.
4) Theistic Satanist in an auto-theistic sense recognizing satanic traits/principles within myself and honoring them. (Auto-theism) Worship in this context is self-respect.
5) #4 + add some awareness of the source of this resides outside myself as much as within... The illusion of separation had been shattered to some extent. (Satan exists, worship self+Satan) Worship moves to honoring Satan and Self.
6) #5 + add being able to understand that Satan exists consciously, but probably not like a human -- without a dualistic nature.
Does the anthropological Satan with horns and red skin exist and is he the creator? I haven't really a clue, and I don't start filling gaps or assuming such a creature has to have a personality or be human-like. It doesn't matter to me even if Satan is the first or only god or some sort of magically created archetype that is connected to our collective unconscious but it is the one I can experience directly in some manner. I think anyone can plainly see there is a gradual progression for me, and that's what I usually fail to understand about other supposed theists. They apparently use the word in the context of spiritual slavery and blind faith only. I mostly posted this to illustrate to the forum that such silliness doesn't have to be a component of a spiritual path. =)
My transition was largely the result of a constant process of meditation coupled with years of actual hard research, and a hobby of ceremonial and ritual magic. (I always liked the ritual part of religion without the pretense...) These things gradually altered my awareness, and my view just followed suit.
Anyway, I agree with the OP in that it is certainly OK to not know and any real approach to theistic Satanism approaches it from the angle of what _I_ personally can see, and what makes sense in a pragmatic and empirical sense.
As far as proving Satan's existence or some silly notion like that any attempt would be an obvious logical fallacy -- I can't even prove you exist due the fact that I only really perceive anyone through my filters... These filters may be deceived...
Only a person lacking intelligence would get into such a discussion knowing there are no rulers that measure godliness. My view is that ultimately a true spiritual path incorporates science and inner development and uses all of the information it has been given; this is the logical/spiritual position of most theistic Satanists (who actually barely believe in Satan initially.) Any other course is likely to lead one to error, or establish dogma which must be supported by blind faith and then the jig is up. Beliefs must be modified by understanding -- and one is only allow to believe what one can experience unless they are delusional. All experiences don't have to be proved through independent observation however and subjective evidence and data collection will do. We approach psychoanalysis from this angle of reasoning, and we can collect data and use consensus to make proofs as well. This remains my approach even to this day..
oldbadger
Skanky Old Mongrel!
Oh dear......... the list......... the long blooming list!I suppose in the end, we hate the most in others what we dislike in ourselves.
paarsurrey
Veteran Member
There is a problem with me. Sometimes it is difficult for me to understand from a cassette/pod-cast.
I start a new thread.
Regards
Sorry...not sure how to respond or if it even requires a response. Lost in translation perhaps.
Perhaps I'm misunderstanding, since I'm not quite sure what you or @Willamena mean.
I'm an atheist. Its not like I'm sitting on some proverbial fence. The difference I would have with you guys is around defaults positions, burdens of proof, etc.
So let me restate my position, since I find senantic arguments tiresome and unhelpful.
I see no ultimate literal truth in any flavour of theism I've ever encountered.
Therefore i am an atheist. Atheism has no ultimate, literal truth. If you're suggesting I can only be an atheist if I know all forms of theism is false, then you're missing my point entirely.
psychoslice
Veteran Member
I'm ignorant, hence whatever.
There is no "default" when it comes to what ideas humans associate with. But, ultimately, in order to be an atheist a person associates with an idea, the idea that "god" is absent from the world.
Thief
Rogue Theologian
Ah...that old chestnut....
No literal declaration of God.....therefore no God.
waiting for God to whisper little nothings in your ear?
hoping God is female?