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I'm ignorant, hence I'm an atheist!!!

1robin

Christian/Baptist
Why do you think that terms such as these should not have overlapping meanings? Agnostics are atheists, by definition, because all that is required to be classified as an atheist is a "lack of belief in the existence of God", which agnostics surely do. There are many terms in the english language with overlapping meanings, and there is no requirement that atheism and agnosticism be mutually exclusive.
It depends which dictionary you read. The one that says atheism is the disbelief in God has made atheism redundant with agnosticism. The one that says that atheism is the denial of God has allowed both terms to have unique meanings. If two terms mean the same thing then one is unnecessary. That is not to say that humans don't have terms that mean the same thing, it just means that it makes issues more confusing to do so. This is not a technical argument it is a logical efficiency claim.

Agnostics make up a subcategory of Atheism just as Deists make up a subcategory of Theism. Agnosticism really does not battle atheism in any way due to the fact that agnosticism is based on a lack of or impossibility of knowledge, whereas atheism is based on a lack of belief.
Deism is not interchangeable with theism. Deism denies a personal God and theism mandates one that is personal. They cannot be used interchangeably.

Maybe I should have stated this as the way things should be, not what is true of the mess man has made of them.

But atheism is not a mere lack of belief in something. If atheism is just the lack of god-belief, then tables and chairs are atheists. For they lack god-belief. Am I being uncharitable? Suppose someone defines atheism more carefully as lack of god-belief in beings capable of having beliefs. That is still unacceptable. Consider a child who lacks both god-belief and god-disbelief. If lacking god-belief makes him an atheist, then lacking god-disbelief makes him a theist. So he is both, which is absurd.

Obviously, atheism is not a mere lack of belief, but a definite belief, namely, the belief that the world is godless.

Maverick Philosopher: A Bad Reason for Thinking that Atheism is not a Religion
 

Marisa

Well-Known Member
I feel like this has already been explained to this contributer several times.
We can explain it until we turn blue in the face and keel over dead, but someone who needs to tell others what they believe rather than asking typically does so to prevent themselves from hearing anything that might puncture the bubble in which they live.
 

ImmortalFlame

Woke gremlin
But atheism is not a mere lack of belief in something. If atheism is just the lack of god-belief, then tables and chairs are atheists. For they lack god-belief. Am I being uncharitable? Suppose someone defines atheism more carefully as lack of god-belief in beings capable of having beliefs. That is still unacceptable. Consider a child who lacks both god-belief and god-disbelief. If lacking god-belief makes him an atheist, then lacking god-disbelief makes him a theist. So he is both, which is absurd.

Obviously, atheism is not a mere lack of belief, but a definite belief, namely, the belief that the world is godless.

Maverick Philosopher: A Bad Reason for Thinking that Atheism is not a Religion
This is pretty poor reasoning. Firstly, if atheism is so broad a term that you could apply it to tables and chairs, why is that inherently unacceptable? It is still technically accurate and doesn't actually diminish the meaning of the word. Likewise, his invention of "lacking god-disbelief" ignores the actual definition of theism, which is the belief in a God - the position REQUIRES belief, therfore "lacking a lack of belief" means "HAVING a belief". Therefore they HAVE a belief, they don't LACK the belief that atheism requires. By definition, you CAN'T be both, so there's no absurdity whatsoever.
 

Marisa

Well-Known Member
I quite like Dawkin's scale because it represents belief and disbelief as a continuum. I'm not sure about the validity of positions 1 and 7 though, since I don't understand how there can be that kind of certainty about God either way.
Neither do I. Yet I know people at 1. Dawkins places himself at a little over 6 but not quite 7, which is where I'd place myself. Someone at 1 would be someone knows god exists because they believe they've had a personal god experience. Ironically, the only person I really know to place himself at 7 does so for the exact same reasons that believers use to place themselves at 7 with regard to beliefs in, say, unicorns.
 

1robin

Christian/Baptist
Oh lawsy . . .that tired old tripe again? Theism = the BELIEF that a god or gods exist. Atheism = the LACK OF A BELIEF that any god or gods exist. It is no more a positive statement than merely stating what you believe is.
But atheism is not a mere lack of belief in something. If atheism is just the lack of god-belief, then tables and chairs are atheists. For they lack god-belief. Am I being uncharitable? Suppose someone defines atheism more carefully as lack of god-belief in beings capable of having beliefs. That is still unacceptable. Consider a child who lacks both god-belief and god-disbelief. If lacking god-belief makes him an atheist, then lacking god-disbelief makes him a theist. So he is both, which is absurd.

Obviously, atheism is not a mere lack of belief, but a definite belief, namely, the belief that the world is godless. Atheism is a claim about the way things are: there is no such thing as the God of Judaism, or the God of Christianity, or the God of Islam, or the gods of the Greek pantheon, or . . . etc. The atheist has a definite belief about the ontological inventory: it does not include God or gods or any reasonable facsimile thereof such as the Plotinian One, etc.
Maverick Philosopher: A Bad Reason for Thinking that Atheism is not a Religion

Gnostic means what you know. Most agnostics (as pertains to religion) are so because they say that "god" has not been defined such that we can know what we are talking about.
Agnosticism is not a belief that something does not exist.

Agnosticism: a person who believes that nothing is known or can be known of the existence or nature of God or of anything beyond material phenomena; a person who claims neither faith nor disbelief in God.


You may be interested to know that many atheists call themselves "agnostic atheists", meaning that have no knowledge that gods do not exist, but they do not believe that gods exist.

dawkins-scale.png
I can call my self a radioactive scorpion beaver but it will not make me one. What Dawkins says out of the biology lab on theology and philosophy usually lowers the net worth of any conversation. What names people invent is not really an argument for or against anything. I am discussing what the terminology traditionally has meant and should mean to make efficient and clear use of the language. What is at stake here for you guys, why is this so important to you? Dawkins once wrote a book centering on a central argument. It was so bad that it has been referred to the worst argument against God in the history of western thought.
 

Marisa

Well-Known Member
But atheism is not a mere lack of belief in something. If atheism is just the lack of god-belief, then tables and chairs are atheists. For they lack god-belief. Am I being uncharitable? Suppose someone defines atheism more carefully as lack of god-belief in beings capable of having beliefs. That is still unacceptable. Consider a child who lacks both god-belief and god-disbelief. If lacking god-belief makes him an atheist, then lacking god-disbelief makes him a theist. So he is both, which is absurd.
You do realize that tables and chairs are inanimate objects, right?
 

1robin

Christian/Baptist
I don't see why this should be the case. Just because something is not a positive claim doesn't mean it isn't a position - lacking a belief and not making a claim are still positions with regards to a particular issue, just as finding a defendant in a case "not guilty" rather than a positive assertion of "innocent" is a perfectly viable conclusion to reach.
The difference is between disbelief (believing X does not exist), and a lack of belief (not knowing if X exists). If atheism means lacking belief then it simply mean Gnosticism and there is no longer a need for the term.


Actually, ant-theism is the belief in the almighty ant-god Pincerus Maximus, who rules the Universe from his cosmic hive.
Oh, did I forget to type an i in there some where?

I kid, of course.
Nice humor.

To be honest, I've never really come across a particularly consistent definition of anti-theism. I'd define it as an opposition to theism (i.e: being against the idea of BELIEVING in God), while others seem to define it as the positive negation of theism (i.e: the BELIEF that there is no God). Unfortunately, it's yet another one of those terms in this debate that needs to be more accurately defined before it can be meaningfully debated as a concept. As if we didn't have enough of those already...
I think anti-theism is kind of a new slang word invented because of the virulent argumentation of modern atheists. I don't know if it has any official definition. I just use it to separate those who deny belief and those who resent belief. Take Hitchens for example, it is not enough for him that he denies belief, he wants to "free" everyone from it by comparing it to a celestial North Korea. He hates the very idea of God but he is at least witty.
 

1robin

Christian/Baptist
You do realize that tables and chairs are inanimate objects, right?
I believe the quote I provided accounted for that and pointed them out as a deficiency in the definitions used for atheism these days. When I posted here, I thought this was such a benign issue that no one would respond. Yet I have been typing for 20 minutes non stop answering posts about it. What is at stake worthy of this much effort?
 

Marisa

Well-Known Member
Agnosticism is not a belief that something does not exist.
Why don't you ask an agnostic?

Agnosticism: a person who believes that nothing is known or can be known of the existence or nature of God or of anything beyond material phenomena; a person who claims neither faith nor disbelief in God.
In what way is this a positive belief?

I can call my self a radioactive scorpion beaver but it will not make me one.
WTF does that have to do with anything? Anything at all?

What Dawkins says out of the biology lab on theology and philosophy usually lowers the net worth of any conversation.
Thank you for sharing your opinion.

What names people invent is not really an argument for or against anything.
No, but when you use those names people calls themselves to discredit them, it makes you arguably rude.

I am discussing what the terminology traditionally has meant and should mean to make efficient and clear use of the language.
No you aren't. You're trying to redefine words to fit your narrative.

What is at stake here for you guys, why is this so important to you?
I would ask you the same question, but I think I already know the answer. Because if we're no different from you, then you're right. But if we're different, then maybe you're wrong.

Dawkins once wrote a book centering on a central argument. It was so bad that it has been referred to the worst argument against God in the history of western thought.
Thank you for sharing your opinion.
 

leibowde84

Veteran Member
It depends which dictionary you read. The one that says atheism is the disbelief in God has made atheism redundant with agnosticism. The one that says that atheism is the denial of God has allowed both terms to have unique meanings. If two terms mean the same thing then one is unnecessary. That is not to say that humans don't have terms that mean the same thing, it just means that it makes issues more confusing to do so. This is not a technical argument it is a logical efficiency claim.

Deism is not interchangeable with theism. Deism denies a personal God and theism mandates one that is personal. They cannot be used interchangeably.

Maybe I should have stated this as the way things should be, not what is true of the mess man has made of them.

But atheism is not a mere lack of belief in something. If atheism is just the lack of god-belief, then tables and chairs are atheists. For they lack god-belief. Am I being uncharitable? Suppose someone defines atheism more carefully as lack of god-belief in beings capable of having beliefs. That is still unacceptable. Consider a child who lacks both god-belief and god-disbelief. If lacking god-belief makes him an atheist, then lacking god-disbelief makes him a theist. So he is both, which is absurd.

Obviously, atheism is not a mere lack of belief, but a definite belief, namely, the belief that the world is godless.

Maverick Philosopher: A Bad Reason for Thinking that Atheism is not a Religion
I am certainly not claiming that they have "the same meaning". My claim was merely that they overlap in meaning. The two terms, atheism and agnosticism, according to Merriam Websters still have different meanings. The overlapping, which in no way makes the either of the terms unnecessary, means that one term, agnosticism, can be included in the other term, atheism. But that doesn't mean that they have the same definition. This is the same with Deism and Theism. All Deists are Theists by definition because they hold a belief in the existence of God. I fail to see the problem, so can you illustrate what issue you see more specifically without the erroneous claim that the two terms have the same meaning?

Atheism = lack of belief in the existence of God.
Agnosticism = undecided on whether God does or doesn't exist and, sometimes, that knowledge of this kind is unattainable. (my only point is that Agnostics clearly "lack a belief in God", but the term Agnosticism still certainly does not have the same definition as Atheism; thus, I feel like your claim that one of the terms is redundant is unfounded)

Further, you put words in my mouth in that you claim that I said that Deism and Theism were interchangeable. I certainly did not suggest this. I said, like agnosticism and atheism, Deism is, by definition, a subcategory of theism. Theism, in its general form, simply means "belief in the existence of God". Deism, on the other hand, refers, as you stated, to belief in a non-personal God who does not interfere with our reality. Deists, thus, believe in the existence of God, so they can accurately be considered as a subcategory of Theism. Thus, they are not interchangeable. One term merely includes the other. I not only fail to see an issue with this, but I consider it logically necessary for general terms like "atheism" and "theism" to have subcategories, more specific in nautre, like "agnosticism" and "deism".

I understand that you are using different definitions of the terms in question. I also think that is perfectly fine, as long as that is made clear. But, my point is that your issue with using the definitions found in nearly all reputable dictionaries seems to be unfounded.
 

Marisa

Well-Known Member
I believe the quote I provided accounted for that and pointed them out as a deficiency in the definitions used for atheism these days.
I believe you're wrong.

When I posted here, I thought this was such a benign issue that no one would respond.
Surprise!

Yet I have been typing for 20 minutes non stop answering posts about it.
That should tell you something.

What is at stake worthy of this much effort?
For me, it's some . . . person . . . who's yet again trying to tell me what I am instead of just asking me. What's at stake for you?
 

1robin

Christian/Baptist
This is pretty poor reasoning. Firstly, if atheism is so broad a term that you could apply it to tables and chairs, why is that inherently unacceptable? It is still technically accurate and doesn't actually diminish the meaning of the word. Likewise, his invention of "lacking god-disbelief" ignores the actual definition of theism, which is the belief in a God - the position REQUIRES belief, therfore "lacking a lack of belief" means "HAVING a belief". Therefore they HAVE a belief, they don't LACK the belief that atheism requires. By definition, you CAN'T be both, so there's no absurdity whatsoever.
If the definition of a word allows inanimate objects to be properly referred to as atheists then the definition needs to be tweaked. The more precise a words definition the more clarity in a conversation. on a narrower definition it may apply only to a billion or so humans, on it's wider definition it may include more than 10^80 pieces of the universe. I used to think English was the dumbest class ever, until my Dad suggested that if nothing else words need tightly defined definitions for legal reasons because if too broad they could be misused by the unjust.

That was his point agnosticism lacks belief, atheism has a belief - a belief the universe contains no God. Defined this way the use of either is clear and non over lapping and would make conversation clearer and more efficient and I think that has been the traditional meaning.
 
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Monk Of Reason

༼ つ ◕_◕ ༽つ
If the definition of a word allows inanimate objects to be properly referred to as atheists then the definition needs to be tweaked. The more precise a words definition the more clarity in a conversation. on a narrower definition it may apply only to a billion or so humans, on it's wider definition it may include more than 10^80 pieces of the universe. I used to think English was the dumbest class ever, until my Dada told me that if nothing else words need tightly defined definitions for legal reasons because if too broad they could be misused by the unjust.
Relevant definitions I think should only apply to relevant targets. A bit of pragmatic scrutiny can easily avoid this.
That was his point agnosticism lacks belief, atheism has a belief - a belief the universe contains no God. Defined this way the use of either is clear and non over lapping and would make conversation clearer and more efficient and I think that has been the traditional meaning.
But agnosticism doesn't touch on belief at all. Lack of or having. To simply say that atheists have a belief there is no god betrays the very root of what the word means.
 

ImmortalFlame

Woke gremlin
The difference is between disbelief (believing X does not exist), and a lack of belief (not knowing if X exists). If atheism means lacking belief then it simply mean Gnosticism and there is no longer a need for the term.
But disbelief doesn't mean "x does not exist", disbelief means simply "not believing" or "rejecting belief in x". Gnosticism and agnosticism are something else entirely: they deal with claims of knowledge, not belief.

Atheist = I don't believe there is a God
Agnostic = I don't know there is/isn't a God

Oh, did I forget to type an i in there some where?

Nice humor.
It's okay, you can be honest. I'm extremely lame.

I think anti-theism is kind of a new slang word invented because of the virulent argumentation of modern atheists. I don't know if it has any official definition. I just use it to separate those who deny belief and those who resent belief. Take Hitchens for example, it is not enough for him that he denies belief, he wants to "free" everyone from it by comparing it to a celestial North Korea. He hates the very idea of God but he is at least witty.
I never really heard the word used until recently, so you're probably right about it being a new term coined as a reaction against the new wave of atheism. It's not a terrible word, though, it's just yet another sub-division of a subject that already has so much sub-division that I'm pretty sure half of this forum is dedicated to attempting to sift through all the various definition of atheism and theism. See above for an example...
 

Marisa

Well-Known Member
If the definition of a word allows inanimate objects to be properly referred to as atheists then the definition needs to be tweaked.
Or . . . you could try properly understanding the word. Let's use your chair logic . . . which chairs and tables believe in a god or gods?
 

leibowde84

Veteran Member
I believe the quote I provided accounted for that and pointed them out as a deficiency in the definitions used for atheism these days. When I posted here, I thought this was such a benign issue that no one would respond. Yet I have been typing for 20 minutes non stop answering posts about it. What is at stake worthy of this much effort?
I actually think this discussion is of monumental importance. Too often I see theists trying to put words into the mouths of Atheists simply because those theists are ignorant of the actual meaning of "atheism". They want to change the meaning in an attempt to paint atheists as making an impossible claim ... to know that the world is Godless, when, in actuality, atheism is merely prudence. Not accepting a belief without sufficient evidence. I think it is important that we don't make atheism into something that it is not. The same goes for theism.
 

ImmortalFlame

Woke gremlin
If the definition of a word allows inanimate objects to be properly referred to as atheists then the definition needs to be tweaked.
I don't really see why. If someone tells me "rocks are atheists", my reaction is "sort-of, technically, but since rocks aren't really capable of being theists or formulating any kind of belief whatsoever, their input in this debate is minimal at best and so I don't see the point of bringing them up". If it helps, just add the word "people" to the definition. It doesn't really make any massive difference either way, the word still has its meaning.

The more precise a words definition the more clarity in a conversation. on a narrower definition it may apply only to a billion or so humans, on it's wider definition it may include more than 10^80 pieces of the universe. I used to think English was the dumbest class ever, until my Dada told me that if nothing else words need tightly defined definitions for legal reasons because if too broad they could be misused by the unjust.
But broader words exist, also. Theism, for example, covers a vast array of different beliefs. I don't see why atheism being a broad term (than can be clarified with sub-division quite easily) is a weakness of the term itself. It is very specific: "a lack of belief in a God". It's no different to saying "the defendant is not guilty" as a-posed to "innocent" - "not guilty" is a broader term which allows for the possibility that the accused actually IS guilty, but that the evidence is insufficient to convict. Atheism is almost exactly as precise as that.

That was his point agnosticism lacks belief, atheism has a belief - a belief the universe contains no God. Defined this way the use of either is clear and non over lapping and would make conversation clearer and more efficient and I think that has been the traditional meaning.
But agnosticism has nothing to do with belief - it is about lacking knowledge or lacking certainty, not lacking belief.
 

leibowde84

Veteran Member
If the definition of a word allows inanimate objects to be properly referred to as atheists then the definition needs to be tweaked. The more precise a words definition the more clarity in a conversation. on a narrower definition it may apply only to a billion or so humans, on it's wider definition it may include more than 10^80 pieces of the universe. I used to think English was the dumbest class ever, until my Dada told me that if nothing else words need tightly defined definitions for legal reasons because if too broad they could be misused by the unjust.

That was his point agnosticism lacks belief, atheism has a belief - a belief the universe contains no God. Defined this way the use of either is clear and non over lapping and would make conversation clearer and more efficient and I think that has been the traditional meaning.
1. You didn't really answer his question. You just said that if a term is general enough to include inanimate objects, it should be changed. There is most certainly a place for specific terms, but there is also a place for very general, parent terms.
2. Your argument here can be refuted very simply; there are already well-defined specific terms in this realm of conversation. They can and should be used when expressing things about those specific groups. But very general terms like "theism" and "atheism" are a necessity as well. Without them, it would be far more difficult to discuss general groups who hold or lack a belief in the existence of God.
 

Marisa

Well-Known Member
I actually think this discussion is of monumental importance. Too often I see theists trying to put words into the mouths of Atheists simply because those theists are ignorant of the actual meaning of "atheism". They want to change the meaning in an attempt to paint atheists as making an impossible claim ... to know that the world is Godless, when, in actuality, atheism is merely prudence. Not accepting a belief without sufficient evidence. I think it is important that we don't make atheism into something that it is not. The same goes for theism.
I agree. I never assume a theist is at 1 on the scale. When I want to know about a person, I ask them, because there's only so much their behavior can tell me (unless I'm around them 24-7-365). I actually have a great respect for all people, but like most people I don't particularly care to be patronized or talked "at" rather than "to".

ETA: Even if a theist is at 1 on the scale, it's not automatically a threat to me. It's only a threat to me if they are insisting that I must join them at that point, or live my life as if I do.
 
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