Illinois Town Cancels Trip to Creationist Attractions After Atheist Warning

[Skwim]

And no doubt god is thankful to the atheists for awakening a small Illinois town to the error of its ways.

"The city of Charleston, Illinois cancelled its plans to visit the Creation Museum and Ark Encounter in Kentucky after the Freedom From Religion Foundation reminded them they would be violating the law by sponsoring such a trip.

[Obviously a promotional package created by the Ham organization to lure in much needed $$$$$ ]

​

The trip was planned by the town’s parks and recreation department and was scheduled for Sept. 30 through Oct. 4, 2019.

According to a flyer, the trip would have cost each resident who wanted to go $575. The price included transportation, lodging, admission to the “new” and “stunning” Ark Encounter and admission to the “famous” Creation Museum.

Both exhibits are brainchildren of prominent Australian-born Young Earth Creationist Ken Ham, the founder of Answers in Genesis.

In a letter sent to Charleston city attorney Rachel Cunningham on Monday, [FFRF’s] Ryan Jayne argued that the trip violated the Establishment Clause of the First Amendment to the U.S. Constitution.

Jane contended that it’s a “fundamental principle of Establishment Clause jurisprudence that the government may not promote, advance or otherwise endorse religion.”
​

It took less than 24 hours for the city to cancel the planned trip.

Ken Ham has already denounced the cancellation, saying that the trip would’ve been a secular one since they wouldn’t be proselytizing. Even though that’s precisely the point of every evidence-free exhibit.

source​

Interesting, and a big BRAVO to the city of Charleston, Illinois for immediately canceling its plans.

What I find amusing is Ham's continued mischaracterization of his folly.

"If such groups come to @ArkEncounter & @CreationMuseum in an objective fashion, to show people world-class exhibits & one group's interpretation re origin of earth history, the trip is fine as an exceptional & voluntary educational/cultural experience."​

.

 

[Father Heathen]

It shouldn't require outside groups to remind government employees what the law is, but this is what happens when dumb bumpkins elect dumb bumpkins.

 

[shmogie]

Ah, yes, no doubt god is thankful to the atheists for awakening a small Illinois town to the error of its ways.

"The city of Charleston, Illinois cancelled its plans to visit the Creation Museum and Ark Encounter in Kentucky after the Freedom From Religion Foundation reminded them they would be violating the law by sponsoring such a trip.

[Obviously a promotional package created by the Ham organization to lure in much needed $$$$$ ]

​

The trip was planned by the town’s parks and recreation department and was scheduled for Sept. 30 through Oct. 4, 2019.

According to a flyer, the trip would have cost each resident who wanted to go $575. The price included transportation, lodging, admission to the “new” and “stunning” Ark Encounter and admission to the “famous” Creation Museum.

Both exhibits are brainchildren of prominent Australian-born Young Earth Creationist Ken Ham, the founder of Answers in Genesis.

In a letter sent to Charleston city attorney Rachel Cunningham on Monday, [FFRF’s] Ryan Jayne argued that the trip violated the Establishment Clause of the First Amendment to the U.S. Constitution.

Jane contended that it’s a “fundamental principle of Establishment Clause jurisprudence that the government may not promote, advance or otherwise endorse religion.”​

It took less than 24 hours for the city to cancel the planned trip.

Ken Ham has already denounced the cancellation, saying that the trip would’ve been a secular one since they wouldn’t be proselytizing. Even though that’s precisely the point of every evidence-free exhibit.

View attachment 25992​

source​

Interesting, and a big BRAVO to the city of Charleston, Illinois for immediately canceling its plans.

What I find amusing is Ham's continued mischaracterization of his folly.

"If such groups come to @ArkEncounter & @CreationMuseum in an objective fashion, to show people world-class exhibits & one group's interpretation re origin of earth history, the trip is fine as an exceptional & voluntary educational/cultural experience."​

.

Nope, not a violation of the establishment clause. A trip to a park does not amount to a national religion, established by and supported by the government.

What if it was a trip to the king Tut exhibit ? Virtually every object there had religious significance to the makers, Tut himself was considered a god.

What's the difference ?

 

[ADigitalArtist]

Nope, not a violation of the establishment clause. A trip to a park does not amount to a national religion, established by and supported by the government.

What if it was a trip to the king Tut exhibit ? Virtually every object there had religious significance to the makers, Tut himself was considered a god.

What's the difference ?

One is a propagandist religious establishment out for converts and the other isn't.

 

[Mindmaster]

Ah, yes, no doubt god is thankful to the atheists for awakening a small Illinois town to the error of its ways.
.

Dunno man, it is a good price.

Two days of religious BS for a cruise and some decent hotels for $575. I think I'd go, lol. And, the food is rolled in.

 

[ADigitalArtist]

Dunno man, it is a good price.

Two days of religious BS for a cruise and some decent hotels for $575. I think I'd go, lol. And, the food is rolled in.

Like a timeshare conference. Sit through the captive sales pitch you're not gonna buy into and enjoy the provided vacation they've wasted their money on.

They're getting wise to that these days, though.

 

[Father Heathen]

Nope, not a violation of the establishment clause. A trip to a park does not amount to a national religion, established by and supported by the government.

What if it was a trip to the king Tut exhibit ? Virtually every object there had religious significance to the makers, Tut himself was considered a god.

What's the difference ?

What a stupid comparison. They're using tax dollars to visit something that's obviously promoting a specific religious viewpoint. A King Tut exhibit would obviously be within an objective, historical context and not proselytizing the religion of ancient Egyptians.

 

[YmirGF]

I still don't get why these ark stories get any traction, whatsoever. I suppose gullible people still have dollars that can be squeezed out of them.

 

[Twilight Hue]

Dunno man, it is a good price.

Two days of religious BS for a cruise and some decent hotels for $575. I think I'd go, lol. And, the food is rolled in.

Even I admit that would be as fun as hell.

 

[shmogie]

What a stupid comparison. They're using tax dollars to visit something that's obviously promoting a specific religious viewpoint. A King Tut exhibit would obviously be within an objective, historical context and not proselytizing the religion of ancient Egyptians.

Not stupid ace, alleged replicas of artifacts related to religion in one exhibit, real artifacts of religion in another.

King Tut and his artifacts are certainly based upon a specific religious viewpoint.

How do you know ant proselytizing goes on at this theme park ?

Oh, the exhibits themselves achieve this goal.

Wait, those Egyptian objects of gods and goddesses, and religious being in the form of animals must represent the same thing ,then.

So, you want it both ways, SOME religious artifact exhibits get the seal of approval, but others, arbitrarily singled out, do not.

To end your hypocrisy, and in the spirit of how you want the establishment clause enforced, ALL religious artifacts of ALL religions must be avoided by students during school hours, or on school trips, period.

You, nor anyone else has the right to make exceptions, right ?

 

[Mindmaster]

Like a timeshare conference. Sit through the captive sales pitch you're not gonna buy into and enjoy the provided vacation they've wasted their money on.

They're getting wise to that these days, though.

Yeah, dunno, honestly these things don't bother me much. I'd probably find the creationist museum completely hilarious, so there is that.

But, I guess the worst of it is you have a laugh at their expense get a few nights out and only have to pick up the tab for the beers. Around that area it's pretty hard to get a hotel for less than $100 a night (and that's the budget stuff, I doubt they are staying at budget), so it's a pretty good deal on the hotels. Though, where it goes postal is if you have to bring two people -- essentially the hotel price doubles in that case and it's not worth it.

 

[Quintessence]

I still don't get why these ark stories get any traction, whatsoever. I suppose gullible people still have dollars that can be squeezed out of them.

Really? While this might be about gullibility for a few, let's not forget we live in an era of click-bait headlines and manufactured controversy. This is all about manipulating emotions and using that to market something. If it's weird and wild, shocking, or stupid, it gets attention.

 

[YmirGF]

Really? While this might be about gullibility for a few, let's not forget we live in an era of click-bait headlines and manufactured controversy. This is all about manipulating emotions and using that to market something. If it's weird and wild, shocking, or stupid, it gets attention.

Forgive me, but a 2000 year old story is too long in tooth to be weird, wild or particularly shocking anymore.

 

[Jose Fly]

Not stupid ace, alleged replicas of artifacts related to religion in one exhibit, real artifacts of religion in another.

King Tut and his artifacts are certainly based upon a specific religious viewpoint.

How do you know ant proselytizing goes on at this theme park ?

Oh, the exhibits themselves achieve this goal.

Wait, those Egyptian objects of gods and goddesses, and religious being in the form of animals must represent the same thing ,then.

So, you want it both ways, SOME religious artifact exhibits get the seal of approval, but others, arbitrarily singled out, do not.

To end your hypocrisy, and in the spirit of how you want the establishment clause enforced, ALL religious artifacts of ALL religions must be avoided by students during school hours, or on school trips, period.

You, nor anyone else has the right to make exceptions, right ?

So you really were serious with your comparison of a King Tut exhibit at a museum with Ken Ham's "Ark Park". Wow.

Tell me.....where's the proselytizing in the King Tut exhibit? Where are the attempts to persuade attendees to convert to an ancient Egyptian religion?

 

[9-10ths_Penguin]

Ah, yes, no doubt god is thankful to the atheists for awakening a small Illinois town to the error of its ways.

"The city of Charleston, Illinois cancelled its plans to visit the Creation Museum and Ark Encounter in Kentucky after the Freedom From Religion Foundation reminded them they would be violating the law by sponsoring such a trip.

[Obviously a promotional package created by the Ham organization to lure in much needed $$$$$ ]

​

The trip was planned by the town’s parks and recreation department and was scheduled for Sept. 30 through Oct. 4, 2019.

According to a flyer, the trip would have cost each resident who wanted to go $575. The price included transportation, lodging, admission to the “new” and “stunning” Ark Encounter and admission to the “famous” Creation Museum.

Both exhibits are brainchildren of prominent Australian-born Young Earth Creationist Ken Ham, the founder of Answers in Genesis.

In a letter sent to Charleston city attorney Rachel Cunningham on Monday, [FFRF’s] Ryan Jayne argued that the trip violated the Establishment Clause of the First Amendment to the U.S. Constitution.

Jane contended that it’s a “fundamental principle of Establishment Clause jurisprudence that the government may not promote, advance or otherwise endorse religion.”​

It took less than 24 hours for the city to cancel the planned trip.

Ken Ham has already denounced the cancellation, saying that the trip would’ve been a secular one since they wouldn’t be proselytizing. Even though that’s precisely the point of every evidence-free exhibit.

View attachment 25992​

source​

Interesting, and a big BRAVO to the city of Charleston, Illinois for immediately canceling its plans.

What I find amusing is Ham's continued mischaracterization of his folly.

"If such groups come to @ArkEncounter & @CreationMuseum in an objective fashion, to show people world-class exhibits & one group's interpretation re origin of earth history, the trip is fine as an exceptional & voluntary educational/cultural experience."​

.

I'm not sure I'm seeing the church-state violation.

If:

- there was proselytizing involved in the trip, or
- the people on it were solicited for donations, or
- the Parks Dept. was subsidizing the trip, or
- if the Parks Dept. only organizes trips like this to Christian destinations...

... then sure: I could understand how there's a church-state violation, but as long as the ticket-holders are paying their way (including the Parks Department's overhead) and it's part of a series of trips to see a range of tourist destinations... I'm not sure what the problem is.

It's not a trip that would appeal to me, but I'm not sure how it would be necessarily illegal for a government agency to offer it.

 

[Jose Fly]

I'm not sure I'm seeing the church-state violation.

If:

- there was proselytizing involved in the trip

Um.....that's kind of the entire point of the "creation museum" and "ark park".

 

[9-10ths_Penguin]

Um.....that's kind of the entire point of the "creation museum" and "ark park".

Is it?

I thought the point of them was mainly to cater to people who were already Christians and YECs.

Edit: if they really wanted to proselytize to non-Christians, Kentucky was probably a poor choice on their part.

 

[Skwim]

I'm not sure I'm seeing the church-state violation.

If:

- there was proselytizing involved in the trip, or
- the people on it were solicited for donations, or
- the Parks Dept. was subsidizing the trip, or
- if the Parks Dept. only organizes trips like this to Christian destinations...

... then sure: I could understand how there's a church-state violation, but as long as the ticket-holders are paying their way (including the Parks Department's overhead) and it's part of a series of trips to see a range of tourist destinations... I'm not sure what the problem is.

It's not a trip that would appeal to me, but I'm not sure how it would be necessarily illegal for a government agency to offer it.

As mentioned in the article,

"Jane contended that it’s a “fundamental principle of Establishment Clause jurisprudence that the government may not promote, advance or otherwise endorse religion.”​

For one thing, promoting the visit is, in essence, promoting the Christian religion. For another, in promoting the religion, it tries to advance it.

It shouldn't require outside groups to remind government employees what the law is, but this is what happens when dumb bumpkins elect dumb bumpkins.

It sure shouldn't, but unfortunately is.

.

 

[Jose Fly]

Is it?

Yes.

I thought the point of them was mainly to cater to people who were already Christians and YECs.

That's not mutually exclusive with evangelizing.

Edit: if they really wanted to proselytize to non-Christians, Kentucky was probably a poor choice on their part.

They stated they chose KY because of its proximity to east-coast cities as well as midwestern cities. The tax breaks didn't hurt either.

 

[Jose Fly]

CLICK HERE:

"Ken Ham stood outside his $27 million Creation Museum before its official opening on Monday (May 28) and declared its mission is not just to counter evolution.

He also wants to create a few Christians.

"We don't just want to see people converted to creationism,'' said Ham, president of the Answers in Genesis ministry, which built the museum on a site officials say is a convenient travel distance for two-thirds of all Americans.

"We do want to see people consider the claims of the Gospel, the claims of Christianity, to see people put their faith and trust in the Lord Jesus Christ.''"