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If you would consider having an abortion (or consider wanting your wife/girlfriend to have one) why?

Discussion in 'General Religious Debates' started by justbehappy, Mar 7, 2010.

  1. MSizer

    MSizer MSizer

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    Ok so what you're suggesting then is that might is right? Hitler's buddies agreed with him, does that mean it was morally permissible for him to kill 6 million Jewish people? Of course not. Large groups of people can be simultaneously morally misguided. This does not change the fundamental principle that all sentient beings can suffer. If you start excusing moral violations on the grounds of popularity, wow, look out christianity, islam is going to wipe you out at this rate, and becuase there are so many of them, it's "morally permissible" due to popular opinion.

    Not.

    Moral permissibility can be justified on logical expressed principles, not on popularity!
     
  2. justbehappy

    justbehappy Active Member

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    Woah hold up! I did NOT say that it made it right - because it doesn't. Yes, large groups of people can be misguided into ignorance. Hopefully in the future people will be more protected, become more aware of their options, and stop using abortion as an easy answer to their problem.
     
  3. Storm

    Storm ThrUU the Looking Glass

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    Just realized I never answered the question of the title.

    The first reason that springs to mind is if I had warning that my child would be born with a crippling disability, such as Down's Syndrome.

    Also, I honestly don't know what I would do if I became pregnant by rape.
     
  4. MSizer

    MSizer MSizer

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    I wouldn't call it just nor unjust, as there is no reciprocity invloved. I would consider it morally permissible, although I see no reason to do it. For the record, if it were my relative or myself, my desire would be that the plug had been pulled previously and my organs donated to an accident victim.
     
  5. MSizer

    MSizer MSizer

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    It seems to me that whether you became pregnant by choice or not would not actually matter from a moral perspective. The principles of whether the child could be afforded a satisfying life (or whatever your criterion for choice) remain unaffected, no?
     
  6. justbehappy

    justbehappy Active Member

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    May I ask you to explain why you might consider it in both situations?
     
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  7. justbehappy

    justbehappy Active Member

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    What if, though, you desired to live? Or say it was your daughter or mother, etc. and even if you would wish them not to be in that situation, they desired to be live even if that happened to them. Would you want someone to have the permission to end their life (and do so) when they wanted to live?
     
  8. MSizer

    MSizer MSizer

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    Yes. It is unjustifiable to allow one's personal biases to interfere with one's moral deliberations.
     
  9. justbehappy

    justbehappy Active Member

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    I don't understand what you're trying to say
     
  10. MSizer

    MSizer MSizer

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    Let's use a different example. Let's say you're a young Jewish mother hiding in the basement from Nazi soldiers upstairs who will kill you and the other 20 people hiding with you if they find you. Now, your 6 month old baby in your arms starts to scream. If you don't smother the child to death, all of you will be found and killed. Is it fair to the others for me as the mother to say "I don't care about all of your lives, since my child is involved, we're all going to die now, as I won't smother her?"

    No, it's not fair. My personal biases don't outweigh those of others.
     
  11. Just_me_Mike

    Just_me_Mike Well-Known Member

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    Ah my nobel friend Msizer.

    Let me chime in. Personally I think your nobility is stronger on screen than it would be in real life. :yes:

    Personally I think if I was in that situation we would probably all die. Is that what I would prefer, no, but I couldn't kill the baby :no:
     
  12. MSizer

    MSizer MSizer

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    I'm not so sure of that. I have no children, but if it were me who were going to expose the group, i'd expect my wife to kill me and vice versa (as disgusting as it is).

    I can just hear it now "listen to that sick atheist, he admit's he'd kill his own wife". Life's a ***** sometimes.
     
  13. justbehappy

    justbehappy Active Member

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    I still don't really understand what your point. That to me is simply putting 20 lives over the lives of 1
     
  14. MSizer

    MSizer MSizer

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    OK, let's raise the risks then. What if it were 500 000 000 lives? Would that be any different? If so, why do 500 000 000 lives override 1, yet 20 don't?
     
  15. justbehappy

    justbehappy Active Member

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    No you understood me wrong. I WOULD kill the baby because 20 lives > 1 life
     
  16. Storm

    Storm ThrUU the Looking Glass

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    In the case of rape, it's not about morality. It's about whether I could bear the reminder. I will point out that it's highly unlikely at any rate. I use birth control regardless of my sexual activity, and even so, I'd take the morning after pill.

    Certainly.

    In the case of disability, it's rather complex, but the nutshell is that I couldn't bear to inflict such suffering on my child when I could prevent it. My religious beliefs come into play in that I believe the "soul" would go on to another, presumably better life.

    You might ask why I wouldn't just give the child up for adoption, and the answer is that I believe abortion to be morally superior in disability cases. Mostly because it prevents unnecessary suffering for the child, but there are also social factors at play. As mentioned upthread, there's no shortage of unwanted children in the world. The wait lists for adoption are because people want perfectly healthy (usually white) newborns. An infant with a major disability would not be in such high demand, and that only leads to more suffering.

    As for adoption with a rape case, it's much less clear. As I said to MSizer, the morality takes a backseat to my own emotional capacity. I honestly don't know if I could love a child of rape, and I think I would be at war with myself. If I didn't love it (maybe even if I did), the pregnancy itself would mostly likely be a 9-month extension of the violation, and I don't know that I could handle that. If I did love it, could I love it enough to raise it fairly? Because I know I couldn't handle an adoption. I'm not saying it's right, but it might be necessary, for me.

    BTW, you're doing a great job keeping such a hot topic civil. Frubals.
     
  17. Just_me_Mike

    Just_me_Mike Well-Known Member

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    I still think you are screen/type righteous.

    When death comes for you in such a fashion, things change. You realize life isn't as valuable as you thought, and the group would rather die together than kill the little baby. The group would stop you from killing the baby, and then they would all gladly die together.

    Yeah there might be the oddball in the group, but that is the way it would happen.
     
  18. Just_me_Mike

    Just_me_Mike Well-Known Member

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    I think it is utter BS for someone to claim they would kill the baby. It would never happen, and if you COULD bring yourself to do such a thing, you are no better than the Nazis.
     
  19. MSizer

    MSizer MSizer

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    Oh, sorry, yes, I did misunderstand you.

    So then, to back up to my previous claim, my personal biases should not be allowed to affect my moral deliberations, so whether the person in the coma is my mother or Jerry Fallwell, each is a non-concious being whose organs could be put to use to allieve the suffering of other concious beings. Yes I admit that it would be much easier to pull the plug on Jerry Fallwell than my own mother, but Jerry Fallwell was somebody else's father, so I have no justification for letting my personal biases play a role in my moral deliberation (deciding whether it's ok to kill and carve either of them).
     
  20. MSizer

    MSizer MSizer

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    Maybe. I'm not convinced myself. Even if so, the collective decision to go together would be an appeal to emotion, not logic, which I think is a mistake.
     
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