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If you don't believe that Jesus is God, then who is the deity in Genesis?

Desert Snake

Veteran Member
In
Hebrews 1:10
We encounter the 'father', calling the 'son', /Jesus,, the creator of heavens and earth. Now, we know that the 'creator', in Genesis, is usually thought to be the one God, /the Godhood. If you do not believe that Jesus is God, then how do you square this direct inference?
 

Skwim

Veteran Member
......The trinitarian answer.

images



.
 

Unveiled Artist

Veteran Member
In
Hebrews 1:10
We encounter the 'father', calling the 'son', /Jesus,, the creator of heavens and earth. Now, we know that the 'creator', in Genesis, is usually thought to be the one God, /the Godhood. If you do not believe that Jesus is God, then how do you square this direct inference?

Hebrews 1:1-4 is a good foundation to understand the verse you're using. It seems like god the Father gave permission for the angels to refer to the Father's Son as god (same nature) of the Father himself. It doesn't talk about Jesus as the creator of the earth. The angels seem to be happy that Jesus was born and god the Father gave them permission to worship the son and the father.

If Jesus were god, there would not need to be plural pronouns in Genesis.

God/Father and Jesus/Son. Christians feel in order to be close to god they need to go through Jesus. It makes more sense to see him as a son rather than as god. One, because god/father is an entity not flesh. Two, Jesus can't die for someone's sins as an entity only as flesh-human.

Unless there is a different definition of human and god, (which I'm still waiting for), that verse doesn't prove Jesus as god. There are stronger verses that shows the relationship between the Father and Son. That doesn't mean they are each other.
 

popsthebuilder

Active Member
Both can be logically seen as alpha and omega.

GOD is the utter beginning and the utter end.

Christ, being formed before the foundation of the earth is the first begotten, indeed the alpha of God's creation. He too is the omega as GOD has set Him as the judge of the quick and the dead. This judgement is at the end of creation, or existence as we know it, making the Christ the omega.

Who was GOD in genesis?

GOD

Peace
 

Desert Snake

Veteran Member
Hebrews 1:1-4 is a good foundation to understand the verse you're using. It seems like god the Father gave permission for the angels to refer to the Father's Son as god (same nature) of the Father himself. It doesn't talk about Jesus as the creator of the earth. The angels seem to be happy that Jesus was born and god the Father gave them permission to worship the son and the father.
Great, however, in the light of Hebrews 1:10, we are then encountering a further, inference. That of Jesus being the creator. Once you have that verse/inference, you have to correlate it to other verses. The verse that you're presenting is not the verse in question, and in fact, the verses in question, affects that verse you presented. You can have two or more verses, that agree with each other; however, you cannot have a contradictory verse to another one. So, if it contradicts, it's wrong.

If Jesus were god, there would not need to be plural pronouns in Genesis.
As in multiple deities? Are you stating that Jesus is another deity?

God/Father and Jesus/Son. Christians feel in order to be close to god they need to go through Jesus. It makes more sense to see him as a son rather than as god. One, because god/father is an entity not flesh. Two, Jesus can't die for someone's sins as an entity only as flesh-human.
I don't know, I'm not a Christian. If some are worshipping /in that manner, that's their problem.

Unless there is a different definition of human and god, (which I'm still waiting for), that verse doesn't prove Jesus as god. There are stronger verses that shows the relationship between the Father and Son. That doesn't mean they are each other.
Is Scriptural, or just your belief? The Scripture hardly presents an average Rabbi, so forth. Can't go by your personal theories; first off, I don't share them, and if they aren't Scriptural, then, there's no way to present an argument in that manner, or refute one.
 
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Windwalker

Veteran Member
Premium Member
God/Father and Jesus/Son. Christians feel in order to be close to god they need to go through Jesus. It makes more sense to see him as a son rather than as god. One, because god/father is an entity not flesh. Two, Jesus can't die for someone's sins as an entity only as flesh-human.

Unless there is a different definition of human and god, (which I'm still waiting for),
Have you ever heard of the hypostatic union? This is a term in Christian theology which speaks of the dual-nature of Jesus as being both fully divine and fully human.

that verse doesn't prove Jesus as god.
It does seem pretty odd then to have Paul quoting the psalmist from Psalm 102:25 singing praises to God how he laid the foundations of the earth, echoing Psalm 8 where he sings,

"When I consider your heavens,
the work of your fingers,
the moon and the stars,
which you have set in place,"

And that he attributes this directly to Jesus, since he is saying it to the Son, it's seems hard to interpret that any other way. Why should Paul say he is saying this to Jesus when clearly the psalmist was saying this to YHWH? (see Psalm 102:24).

There are stronger verses that shows the relationship between the Father and Son. That doesn't mean they are each other.
Most people do not understand the Trinitarian formulation. They assume it means separate entities or "persons" in the literal human sense of the word. In fact, most people imagine God as some sort of "entity", which distorts understanding in and of itself. You start there with that image, and you end up with something wholly unsustainable in speaking of divinity.
 

Windwalker

Veteran Member
Premium Member
Both can be logically seen as alpha and omega.

GOD is the utter beginning and the utter end.
I think this way of talking about Alpha and Omega as "utter beginning and utter end" places God in a linear timescale. I don't see it that way. The choice of words of course are metaphorical, since all we have are words describing the experience of our reality within our reality. God however is Eternal.

So think of the Beginning and the End more in terms of a Mobius strip. Where is the beginning and where is the end? The reality of it is the beginning and the end exists at all points along its surface where we live and experience time. It is projected onto it in linear time by us because that is our reality. It is projected from our own relative position along it, imagining the past, and imagining the future.

Christ, being formed before the foundation of the earth is the first begotten, indeed the alpha of God's creation. He too is the omega as GOD has set Him as the judge of the quick and the dead. This judgement is at the end of creation, or existence as we know it, making the Christ the omega.
Understood in light of what I just said about the Mobius strip analogy, our creation, our timeline is drawn out upon the surface of this eternal reality with no beginning and no ending. To say then that Christ exists before and beyond creation, this says he is God of course. I would not imagine that the "end of creation" (meaning our reality in this universe), means that Christ ends. Again, we speak of God from our own earth-bound perspectives in a progression of linear time. Our language projects onto God our reality, creating an image of ourselves on the reality of God. At best the language is metaphorical, trying to apprehend some pattern upon the face of the Infinite. To literalize God is to make God an image of ourselves.

Who was GOD in genesis?

GOD

Peace
Rather, who is God in all time?
 

Unveiled Artist

Veteran Member
Have you ever heard of the hypostatic union? This is a term in Christian theology which speaks of the dual-nature of Jesus as being both fully divine and fully human.


It does seem pretty odd then to have Paul quoting the psalmist from Psalm 102:25 singing praises to God how he laid the foundations of the earth, echoing Psalm 8 where he sings,

"When I consider your heavens,
the work of your fingers,
the moon and the stars,
which you have set in place,"

And that he attributes this directly to Jesus, since he is saying it to the Son, it's seems hard to interpret that any other way. Why should Paul say he is saying this to Jesus when clearly the psalmist was saying this to YHWH? (see Psalm 102:24).


Most people do not understand the Trinitarian formulation. They assume it means separate entities or "persons" in the literal human sense of the word. In fact, most people imagine God as some sort of "entity", which distorts understanding in and of itself. You start there with that image, and you end up with something wholly unsustainable in speaking of divinity.

I understand it. Its not complicated. The issue I come accross is like the Eucharist, using IS rather than representation of, etc like in the bible.

Jesus shares attributes of his father because they both share in the same nature. That doesnt make them each other. Im out the house, but just that one sentence, how can Jesus be god only because he shares the attributes with his father?

Cont..
 

Unveiled Artist

Veteran Member
Ima do these in questions; because, I think ya missing my points.
Great, however, in the light of Hebrews 1:10, we are then encountering a further, inference. That of Jesus being the creator. Once you have that verse/inference, you have to correlate it to other verses. The verse that you're presenting is not the verse in question, and in fact, the verses in question, affects that verse you presented. You can have two or more verses, that agree with each other; however, you cannot have a contradictory verse to another one. So, if it contradicts, it's wrong.

I think you are all over the place with your points. Honestly, no offense.

The verses I posted Hebrew 1-14 I believe are for context.

Where does it say that Jesus IS the creator of heaven and earth?

Since the angels are talking about bith god "and" Jesus why woule you assume that because jesus was born, god is no longer the father, jesus is?

God gave the angels permission to call his son jesus. How does that make jesus god?

Jesus and the father share the same attributes. Except jesus is Not the creator, he is not all knowing, and he is not all powerful. There are a lot of scriptures somewhere I posted on RF that says otherwise.

Where did you find the idea that jesus talks more about himself than his father?

As in multiple deities? Are you stating that Jesus is another deity?

Where did you get that one? If jesus is god and the father is only one god, then there are two deities.

My point is because there is only one creator/deity, how can jesus be god without making him a second deity?

In other words, whats what you are prooving. Im prooving the opposite.

I don't know, I'm not a Christian. If some are worshipping a /human, that's their problem.

How is it a problem? And because its a scriptural debate, can you address that point in scripture or knowledge of?

Is Scriptural, or just your belief? The Scripture hardly presents an average Rabbi, so forth. Can't go by your personal theories; first off, I don't share them, and if they aren't Scriptural, then, there's no way to present an argument in that manner, or refute one.

No. Iy is not my belief. It was -my experience-. Beliefs fly in the wind. People interpret the bible in thousands of ways. We know ourselves the most. So this is coming from scripture, what I studied, and experienced.
 

Windwalker

Veteran Member
Premium Member
I understand it. Its not complicated.
Actually, it is quite complicated to understand using the logical mind. It's highly esoteric. To hear someone say the Trinity doctrine is easy to understand, says to me they haven't begun to attempt to penetrate it. It's like I said in my post just now to popsthebuilder, we project our earth-bound reality using our language to attempt to describe the Infinite. How deeply or how little we understand the metaphorical nature of language, and how deeply or how little we allow ourselves to imagine beyond our highly restrictive finite realities, determines how much God looks just like us as we see ourselves in our reality. (That may take a minute to sink in a little).

Jesus shares attributes of his father because they both share in the same nature.
Let me demonstrate the problem of your language here and what it projects onto the divine. You use the term "share in the same nature". That creates this image of say God and Jesus sitting in a swimming pool sharing the same water, or sitting at the same table and sharing the same wine. The problem with this is that you make the Father's nature outside of the Father, that both Jesus and he share in. This imagines two separate beings sharing something in common, and that something would therefore be something that exists beyond both of themselves. You make the nature of God something God himself shares in with Jesus, or with us.

There is no sharing. God IS. No beginning, no end, no boundaries. "In him we live and move and have our being", describes the reality of God and our reality fairly well to me. No boundaries.

That doesnt make them each other. Im out the house, but just that one sentence, how can Jesus be god only because he shares the attributes with his father?
What you don't see in Paul's expression of Christ in Hebrews is that he doesn't simply share attributes, he is the very expression of the divine itself. He is the attributes! That's is considerably beyond sharing qualities. It is the very Manifestation of God itself. That is the Christ, the Logos. Logos expresses the Divine, Logos is the Divine expressing, manifesting, revealing. There is no "sharing" which takes place with separate individuals. There is simply Manifestation of the Divine. That is what Paul is saying (as well as Gospel John). "The Son is the radiance of God’s glory and the exact representation of his being".

Paul speaks in terms of the distinction between the Father and the Son here is because he is trying to speak about who Jesus as a man was to them. This man who lived among them, is the eternal Manifestation of God, the Creator of the world, become flesh and Manifesting God as man as he has as the eternal image of God, the power of God, the expression of God. God in flesh, revealing God as a man. This is exactly what John was saying about the Logos, who manifested God eternally, and how that the whole of creation was through this Manifestor, this Revealer of the Eternal into time. "All things were created by him." And then, John 1:14, "The Logos became flesh and dwelt among us". Jesus was the human embodiment of the Eternal Logos, continuing in human flesh who and what he has always been since before the creation of this world. God manifesting.

Pause to let you process that.
 
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Unveiled Artist

Veteran Member
Actually, it is quite complicated to understand using the logical mind. It's highly esoteric. To hear someone say the Trinity doctrine is easy to understand, says to me they have begun to attempt to penetrate it. It's like I said in my post just now to popsthebuilder, we project our earth-bound reality using our language to attempt to describe the Infinite. How deeply or how little we understand the metaphorical nature of language, and how deeply or how little we allow ourselves to imagine beyond our highly restrictive finite realities, determines how much God looks just like us as we see ourselves in our reality. (That may take a minute to sink in a little).


Let me demonstrate the problem of your language here and what it projects onto the divine. You use the term "share in the same nature". That creates this image of say God and Jesus sitting in a swimming pool sharing the same water, or sitting at the same table and sharing the same wine. The problem with this is that you make the Father's nature outside of the Father, that both Jesus and he share in. This imagines two separate beings sharing something in common, and that something would therefore be something that exists beyond both of themselves. You make the nature of God something God himself shares in with Jesus, or with us.

There is no sharing. God IS. No beginning, no end, no boundaries. "In him we live and move and have our being", describes the reality of God and our reality fairly well to me. No boundaries in reality, only in illusion, the darkness of our own imaginations.


What you don't see in Paul's expression of Christ in Hebrews is that he does simply share attributes, he is the very expression of the divine itself. That's is considerably beyond sharing qualities. It is the very Manifestation of God itself, though Christ, through Logos. As Logos expresses the Divine, Logos is the Divine itself expressing, in expression, in manifestation, in revealing. There is no "sharing" which takes place with separate individuals. There is simply Manifestation of the Divine. That is what Paul is saying (as well as Gospel John). "The Son is the radiance of God’s glory and the exact representation of his being".

Paul speaks in terms of the distinction between the Father and the Son here is because he is trying to speak about who Jesus is to them. This man who lived among them, is the eternal Manifestor of God, the Creator of the world, become flesh and Manifesting God as man as he has as the eternal image of God, the power of God, the expression of God. God in flesh, revealing God as a man. This is exactly what John was saying about the Logos, who manifested God eternally, and how that the whole of creation was through this Manifestor, this Revealer of the Eternal into time. "All things were created by him." And then, John 1:14, "The Logos became flesh and dwelt among us". Jesus was the human embodiment of the Eternal Logos, continuing in human flesh what who and what he has always been since before the creation of this world.

Pause to let you process that.

Im bored at the bus stop so Ima do a brief reply and come back with a more detailed one.

The same nature means that god's nature Is Jesus and Jesus Is god's. It doesnt mean that their nature is separate. God is the creator: thats what he Is. Jesus shares in that because he is God's son. (Same blood/dna two people-mother and daughter).

Once you make Jesus his own deity regardless how its explaines theoretically, you make him another god. Since there are three "separate" people in the trinity, why make it mystical and make them each other when each person has their own role and place within the divine nature they all share-one of god (creator), one of human/son (savior), and one of holy -spirit- (comfortor)?

Im not saying jesus is like us because he is human. I am saying because he is human he can share in a christians pain but becauae he shares in gods nature, he can shed skin/sins but he wont die. Remember, no one dies. So, i dont see how him being human confuses who jesus is and his role.

If amything, it makes it more concrete. It makes a heck more sense.

That ans you are using mystical words that are really not needed. Christianity is not hard to understand.

All the verses you quote, I know them. Jesus being human doesnt contradict those versus.

What is your definition of human?
Is god only a spirit or is he human "too"?
If he is human, what is the nature of the father? Is he spirit?

If you said Jesus IS the father, son, and holy spirit and kept it one person, Id understand. As long as you maintain they are separate, theres a problem.
 

popsthebuilder

Active Member
I think this way of talking about Alpha and Omega as "utter beginning and utter end" places God in a linear timescale. I don't see it that way. The choice of words of course are metaphorical, since all we have are words describing the experience of our reality within our reality. God however is Eternal.

So think of the Beginning and the End more in terms of a Mobius strip. Where is the beginning and where is the end? The reality of it is the beginning and the end exists at all points along its surface where we live and experience time. It is projected onto it in linear time by us because that is our reality. It is projected from our own relative position along it, imagining the past, and imagining the future.


Understood in light of what I just said about the Mobius strip analogy, our creation, our timeline is drawn out upon the surface of this eternal reality with no beginning and no ending. To say then that Christ exists before and beyond creation, this says he is God of course. I would not imagine that the "end of creation" (meaning our reality in this universe), means that Christ ends. Again, we speak of God from our own earth-bound perspectives in a progression of linear time. Our language projects onto God our reality, creating an image of ourselves on the reality of God. At best the language is metaphorical, trying to apprehend some pattern upon the face of the Infinite. To literalize God is to make God an image of ourselves.


Rather, who is God in all time?
I agree that GOD is eternal. I believe the Crist in the form of what we know as the Holy Spirit was formed before the creation of the earth giving it a starting point. The Crist or Christ is also to be the judge, giving an ending point, not of GOD or the Holy Spirit, but of life as we know it. Surely GOD is eternal as is IT's Will.

Peace
 
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