If you could talk to a rioter.

[SomeRandom]

It sounds like the upshot of this is that
talking to rioters would be useful.

I’m still not sure.
I mean the debates I had, everyone sort of knew the ground rules. There wasn’t a lot of investment in the positions as a sort of “identity.”
With Trumpers, that’s kind of all there is. I’m sure some could be talked to. A lot learned from and common ground to share. I’m not saying it is folly. Anyone from any position can find common ground with their “opponents.
But the conspiracy theorists? The ones who rally behind the cult of personality and nothing else?
I mean the former won’t listen to reasonable evidence. I’ve tried, numerous times to no avail.
The latter don’t seem to even know what they’re truly supporting. Only that their team is righteous and winning against the evil leftists. It’s so very cult like. That’s just my exposure to it so far. Although on here there seems more reasonable heads on both aisles. Elsewhere it’s just a screaming match devoid of progress.
I mean it’s one thing to get into a scrap over policy positions and politics. To try to discuss someone’s preferred leader seems to be another ball game entirely. Though if you think you can make headway with someone, by all means have at it

 

[Revoltingest]

I’m still not sure.
I mean the debates I had, everyone sort of knew the ground rules. There wasn’t a lot of investment in the positions as a sort of “identity.”
With Trumpers, that’s kind of all there is. I’m sure some could be talked to. A lot learned from and common ground to share. I’m not saying it is folly. Anyone from any position can find common ground with their “opponents.
But the conspiracy theorists? The ones who rally behind the cult of personality and nothing else?
I mean the former won’t listen to reasonable evidence. I’ve tried, numerous times to no avail.
The latter don’t seem to even know what they’re truly supporting. Only that their team is righteous and winning against the evil leftists. It’s so very cult like. That’s just my exposure to it so far. Although on here there seems more reasonable heads on both aisles. Elsewhere it’s just a screaming match devoid of progress

Is there anything to lose by civil conversation with one's political foes?

 

[SomeRandom]

Is there anything to lose by civil conversation with one's political foes?

Possibly one’s life, depending on the positions of your opponents.

Just ask all the Jews who bent over backwards to appease Hitler.

A little hyperbolic, perhaps. Or perhaps not, given the amount of literal neo Nazi iconography allegedly found at the riot. (Trump’s other rallies I cannot comment on, though.)

 

[Revoltingest]

Possibly one’s life, depending on the positions of your opponents.

Just ask all the Jews who bent over backwards to appease Hitler.

A little hyperbolic, perhaps. Or perhaps not, given the amount of literal neo Nazi iconography found at the riot. (Trump’s other rallies I cannot comment on, though.)

Do you really believe the civil conversation
with political foes is "appeasement"?

I offer a positive example...
Daryl Davis - Wikipedia

 

[9-10ths_Penguin]

I’m still not sure.
I mean the debates I had, everyone sort of knew the ground rules. There wasn’t a lot of investment in the positions as a sort of “identity.”
With Trumpers, that’s kind of all there is. I’m sure some could be talked to. A lot learned from and common ground to share. I’m not saying it is folly. Anyone from any position can find common ground with their “opponents.
But the conspiracy theorists? The ones who rally behind the cult of personality and nothing else?
I mean the former won’t listen to reasonable evidence. I’ve tried, numerous times to no avail.
The latter don’t seem to even know what they’re truly supporting. Only that their team is righteous and winning against the evil leftists. It’s so very cult like. That’s just my exposure to it so far. Although on here there seems more reasonable heads on both aisles. Elsewhere it’s just a screaming match devoid of progress.
I mean it’s one thing to get into a scrap over policy positions and politics. To try to discuss someone’s preferred leader seems to be another ball game entirely. Though if you think you can make headway with someone, by all means have at it

Reasoning with them won't work because the position isn't based on reason.

Truth is irrelevant. They have their desired end goal in mind - that Trump should be President - and they picked a narrative that fits that end goal. The truth or falsehood of the narrative doesn't matter because they aren't following it because they think it's true; they're following it because they consider it convenient. Often, IMO, they know it isn't true, but they just don't care.

There's a line I've seen attributed to several different sources, but it seems to be applicable here: "you can't wake a person who's pretending to be asleep." That's what's going on here. The actual believers are very, very rare, IMO.

 

[SomeRandom]

Do you really believe the civil conversation
with political foes is "appeasement"?

I offer a positive example...
Daryl Davis - Wikipedia

No. It’s always a good idea to first offer civil discourse as the first option. I think it can do wonders to pull people together. Even the simple act of acting human to another person has the potential to be profound.
But there are limits.

Running with the Hitler scenario, because it’s the easiest illustration in the modern west. At first people didn’t take him that seriously. He lost, went home and licked his wounds. After he was released from prison he tried again just with more success. And at first it seemed okayish. Political leaders from the UK and US, desperate to avoid a second world conflict tried to mediate with him. They offered resolution and came back home hailing themselves as heroes. Because they averted WWII.
Literally weeks (I think) before Germany invaded Poland. Some didn’t take his threat seriously. Jews for Hitler was a thing. I think it was even something of a joke at the time. Others thought they could avoid the consequences if they were the perfect token. Representing the fatherland with pride and earning their lives through bringing glory to Germany.
History proved them all fools. There are just some people you can’t reckon with.

 

[Stevicus]

Heated debate is pretty useless in my experience.
Things must be civil & friendly. People are more
open during that.

 

[SomeRandom]

Reasoning with them won't work because the position isn't based on reason.

Truth is irrelevant. They have their desired end goal in mind - that Trump should be President - and they picked a narrative that fits that end goal. The truth or falsehood of the narrative doesn't matter because they aren't following it because they think it's true; they're following it because they consider it convenient. Often, IMO, they know it isn't true, but they just don't care.

There's a line I've seen attributed to several different sources, but it seems to be applicable here: "you can't wake a person who's pretending to be asleep." That's what's going on here. The actual believers are very, very rare, IMO.

Exactly. I’m not against finding common ground. I’m all about civil discourse. It’s the best way forward, imo. Even if it can get a little “spirited.”

But there are just some mindsets that won’t always allow that. I was in one and like I said, I had to be the one to change. Not anyone around me.
I don’t like to say a political position is a lost cause. But if I’m trying to bend over backwards for someone who refuses to even flex, I don’t think fruitful discourse can occur. Even if it’s just about the weather.

 

[Revoltingest]

No. It’s always a good idea to first offer civil discourse as the first option. I think it can do wonders to pull people together. Even the simple act of acting human to another person has the potential to be profound.
But there are limits.

Running with the Hitler scenario, because it’s the easiest illustration in the modern west. At first people didn’t take him that seriously. He lost, went home and licked his wounds. After he was released from prison he tried again just with more success. And at first it seemed okayish. Political leaders from the UK and US, desperate to avoid a second world conflict tried to mediate with him. They offered resolution and came back home hailing themselves as heroes. Because they averted WWII.
Literally weeks (I think) before Germany invaded Poland. Some didn’t take his threat seriously. Jews for Hitler was a thing. I think it was even something of a joke at the time. Others thought they could avoid the consequences if they were the perfect token. Representing the fatherland with pride and earning their lives through bringing glory to Germany.
History proved them all fools. There are just some people you can’t reckon with.

Sounds like detente.
Alas, some people justify refusing to talk at all because "Hitler!".
I like talking. I'm a non-aggressionist.
But I also worked on weapon design.
Hope for the best, but plan for the worst, eh.

 

[9-10ths_Penguin]

One thing that's kind of flabbergasted me with all this is the pictures. They can't all possibly be stupid. Sure, some of them are, but most are probably of at least average intelligence. What I'd say is:

"You're committing a crime. You seem to have your reasons, but why on earth are you taking pictures? And then posting them on public forums? Is your five minutes of fame worth the years in prison?"

Though this sentiment goes to more than just the protestors... I don't know how many people I see in the paper caught because of their own need for recognition.

Maybe that's our society's problem... no one's getting enough attention these days.

IMO, that's one of the tell-tale signs that they know their rhetoric is false.

Anyone who actually thought that they were fighting some shadow cabal that's powerful enough to rig US presidential elections would also worry that they'd be at personal risk if that shadow cabal found out their identity.

Anyone who "stormed the Capitol" without doing anything to hide their identity is someone who doesn't actually think the election was stolen. Heck - there was even that one guy who wore his work photo ID on a lanyard around his neck.

 

[SomeRandom]

Sounds like detente.
Alas, some people justify refusing to talk at all because "Hitler!".
I like talking. I'm a non-aggressionist.
But I also worked on weapon design.
Hope for the best, but plan for the worst, eh.

Talk is a powerful weapon. I do think one should wield it wisely. And that includes when to sheathe it.

 

[Stevicus]

Oh, well to me it was a heated debate. Maybe we’re just too laid back for what Americastans call “debate.”
A debate to me would be fervent disagreement and impassioned arguments on both sides. But to resort to attacking the opposing side would be in very poor taste. That’s when you lose, imo

I don't see that it's just a matter of debate or disagreement, at least not in how it's often manifested in America. Remember our conversation about "cancel culture." People are so passionate about politics that they can't just agree to disagree. They feel the need to call people out, doxx them, ruin their lives, or even kill them for having a view they don't like.

People aren't inclined to simply let things go. The reason for that, I think, has to do with how people are raised and conditioned to think about America - such as American Exceptionalism, the American Dream, Manifest Destiny, the Pledge of Allegiance/National Anthem, and many other aspects of the American mythos. They take all this stuff far too seriously.

 

[Revoltingest]

Talk is a powerful weapon. I do think one should wield it wisely. And that includes when to sheathe it.

I never said it's always successful.

 

[tytlyf]

Great quote. I feel like I’ve heard it before. Do you happen to have the link / source?

Oldie but a goodie. Still relevant today.
Dr. Cynthia Boaz: 14 propaganda techniques Fox "News" uses to brainwash Americans

 

[SomeRandom]

I don't see that it's just a matter of debate or disagreement, at least not in how it's often manifested in America. Remember our conversation about "cancel culture." People are so passionate about politics that they can't just agree to disagree. They feel the need to call people out, doxx them, ruin their lives, or even kill them for having a view they don't like.

People aren't inclined to simply let things go. The reason for that, I think, has to do with how people are raised and conditioned to think about America - such as American Exceptionalism, the American Dream, Manifest Destiny, the Pledge of Allegiance/National Anthem, and many other aspects of the American mythos. They take all this stuff far too seriously.

I’m Australian so I can’t say I can empathise much with the American position. I can certainly empathise with fuelling your beliefs with emotions and unable to just agree to disagree. I am very stubborn and very emotional. But I try to at least temper it with some form of empathy. And I may be odd in this respect, but any and all heated debates I have here is forgotten the mere second I log off. I have probably railed against many, but I ultimately don’t care. I treat it like backing your favoured sports team. You will be heated and emotional. But at the end of the day, who cares? We can bicker or we can drink and make merry. I know which outcome I infinitely prefer

 

[SomeRandom]

I never said it's always successful.

I never said it never was successful. Just that we all need to recognise limits. Some people have fewer limits than I. Some have more. It is what it is

 

[Revoltingest]

I never said it never was successful. Just that we all need to recognise limits. Some people have fewer limits than I. Some have more. It is what it is

And I've known people who shouldn't talk...to anyone...ever.

 

[SomeRandom]

And I've known people who shouldn't talk...to anyone...ever.

I shouldn’t talk to anyone. I don’t like people very much.

 

[tytlyf]

I shouldn’t talk to anyone. I don’t like people very much.

I avoid people mostly. I'm in a pretty red area. Confederate flags and the Klan right around the corner.

 

[SomeRandom]

I avoid people mostly. I'm in a pretty red area. Confederate flags and the Klan right around the corner.