If you believe in love, you believe in God

[Sand Dancer]

Self denial? Interesting, so you think you are god?

Atheist : a person who disbelieves or lacks belief in the existence of God or gods.

T?hereim are a lot of us around

Ask him if he believes in Zeus, Anubis or Loki. If he doesn't, he will know what being an atheist is like.

 

[Audie]

Perhaps "language" is over rated . Or do you think language is about "words" somehow ?
Language is not about words.....language is about "understanding". If you ask a native Japanese who doesn't speak any English
for a glass of water, they will not know what you speak of...
But they certainly do know what "water" is.....don't they ?

Whatevs

 

[Windwalker]

Come now. I am just using you guys' lingos as a matter of
custom and convenience.

A theist prob. is overthinking things.

Howsabout I just say this here supernatural monster you guys
keep talking about dont exist, being the opposite of infinite.

How long have we been talking, and you still think I'm a "you guys"? You know I don't believe that way about any of it.

 

[Polymath257]

What separates human imagination from reality? Isn't imagination part of reality? It is. You do realize that imagination is how doing science begins? It begins imagining what something must be, and sets forth to collect more data and confirm the hypothesis, or what the scientist imagined was going on?

OK, this seems to be either missing or avoiding the point. Yes, it is reality that we can imagine things that are not real. The things we imagine may or may not exist in reality.

For example, when I imagine a pink elephant in my room, I also know there isn't a pink elephant in my room. There is no actual pink elephant in my room. So, what I imagine is NOT reality, however real it is that I am imagining something.

I think what you mean to say is that God is nothing more than childish fantasy, with no basis in lived reality. Would that be fair to say?

It depends upon who is telling you, I suppose. If some crank on the street started blathering on about his ideas that God speaks to him through his dog, I'd consider the source, first of all. But if someone whom I knew to be a level-headed, responsible, intelligent, as well as a solid critical thinker, told me of a profound spiritual experience which changed their views on reality, I'd be interested in knowing more, and extend them an open mind. Were I to just dismiss out of hand something that challenged how I thought, I'd recognize that as a lack of intellectual and emotional integrity on my part.

I would take that as a personal testimony and maybe investigate what they were doing at the time that could cause hallucinations.

The human imagination is in the real world. I think this is where you, and a great many get tripped up. You see yourself as outside of this universe somehow. You are this world. You are this universe. You are. You. As you have an imagination, that is the universe imagining through you. YOU are the universe, imagining.

I am part of this universe, but I can imagine things that are NOT in this universe except in my imagination. We say such things are NOT reality. I am also NOT this universe; I am *part* of this universe, but there are many things in this universe that are not me. And yes, in a sense, what I imagine is the universe imagining through me, although I find that wording to be rather strange and distorted.

So, once again, is God imaginary, in the sense of only existing in people's imagination, or it is real, as in having some existence apart from the imaginings of people?

That takes a while to try to wrap the mind around that. I know. We are so accustomed to thinking dualistically, because of how in the West we have been conditioned towards that sort of dichotomy between how we categorize things. But as we are looking at the world, we are also the world looking. But we don't consider that. We just assume that how we see through our eyes, is unaffected by this conditioning. There is not humankind, and then nature. We are nature as humankind.

I don't find it a difficult concept at all. I almost find it a triviality, though and not much use for the discussion as I see it.

So where is this God then? Right here, in us. So as we reach with the imagination into the vastly more fluid landscape of symbolic reality, we experience a transcendence of the self, and in this transcendence we find that reality is more than just what we can taste and feel with the body's senses. There is an ineffable quality to existence itself, and we realize that quality within our own bodies and minds, as well as all other life. It's the experience of reality on that level, which the human imagination grants us wings into, which affords us a glimpse into the true nature of who and what we and everything else is.

OK, so it *is* imaginary. It doesn't exist apart from our ability to imagine.

Some call that nature, God. And it found in everything that exists. That means, it is the real world. God is not outside the human imagination. It's within everything that makes us human.

OK, imagination is important *as a first step* towards finding truth. But I can imagine a great number of things that are not true.

I don't consider it as a matter of belief for me. If it was just an interesting concept, then not so much. But to me, God is what I choose to call the whole thing. And that whole thing, is a lot more than just the basic ideas that we hold as truths to us without any really true deep penetration beneath the programming of that "mundane" reality. For me, it includes the mind in wonder of it's own being in the world. It is a self-examination of existential questions, big questions, that leads to see that there is in fact more than just our programmed ideas of what is real and what is truth.

God to me describes the experience of Reality. Reality is God. Wholly connected, and fully Awake, vibrant, pulsating, and alive. It's seeing beyond the veil of the conditioned mind, that looking through a glass darkly, and expresses being at a whole different level of reality, one which creates absolute peace and connection with all Reality. God describes Reality, beyond all definitions and descriptions.

Reality is what we can perceive by looking around us. Yes, our senses only get a piece of this. But it is only through their dim, dusty window that we can see at all. Otherwise, we are just pushing around our own fantasies. And that is NOT reality, as I see it.

 

[Polymath257]

Please Poly....spare me the drama, lol
there are REASONS WHY you "either like/love them OR YOU DON'T "...
and each of these little reasons make up the big CHOICE...

I do not make a choice. Those reasons may be going into the unconscious processing, but there is no conscious choice. Often, it is far from clear to me why I have the reactions I do.

Is really a choice for you?

 

[Audie]

How long have we been talking, and you still think I'm a "you guys"? You know I don't believe that way about any of it.

What guys did you think I meant? Seems to
me Americans / Canadians/ Ozarians / Brits
routinely speak of "god" as if it exists and
refer to same as "he".

For me to speak the same way just means
theres been some cultural assimilation.

 

[Audie]

Im not good at articulating the following but will try.
Belief and faith in God is more interesting.
I dont choose a legalistic narrow Christian view. More the faith Jesus was getting at. He was trying to get the Jews to think outside their narrow paradigm.
Anyway I find the NT view more interesting. It allows for the artist's view of life.
Interesting is important. We dont want to be strangled by Christian legalism or Scientific legalism.
To choose atheism for me is a cop out. Caving in to a dull claustrophobic view of life.

Ifn ya think your imagination beats reality, gopher it.
Me, Id rather not put some artificial construct beteeen
myself and whats real.

 

[sciatica]

Ifn ya think your imagination beats reality, gopher it.
Me, Id rather not put some artificial construct beteeen
myself and whats real.

you love facts. go for it. just make sure they are facts though.

 

[Audie]

you love facts. go for it. just make sure they are facts though.

Of course

 

[Tiberius]

(a little secret)……"THOUGHT", is the most powerful energy of ALL

What type of energy is that? How do you measure it?

 

[Twilight Hue]

Because God is love.
So all the atheists who believe in love?

Thats regarded as a prerequisite for love?

 

[Windwalker]

What guys did you think I meant? Seems to
me Americans / Canadians/ Ozarians / Brits
routinely speak of "god" as if it exists and
refer to same as "he".

For me to speak the same way just means
theres been some cultural assimilation.

You were lumping me in with traditional theists who view God as a person in the sky. You've done this multiple times in the past, and I thought you had finally gotten that is not how it works. Not everyone who speaks of God, is imagining Noah's Ark really happened, and that God is a person in the sky watching your every move in order to determine if you are on the nice or naughty list. No, not all Americans are fundamentalist Christians. I thought you knew this.

 

[Audie]

But how do you define that "him" you just cited, in order to claim that "him" is non-existent? You have to start somewhere. You have a gender pronoun applied to it, so clearly there is an idea in your mind. Generally him, means a person other than yourself, and one of male gender. So that's two ideas already, both make God an external entity from yourself. Where did you get those ideas from?

"opposite of infinite"

I referred to "god" as "him" and you chose to
overthink that. "You guys", theists as a whole,
tend to use names other than "the universe and
everything in it"

I sometimes refer to "god" as "it", which seems
to offend people.

In reality, God is considered Infinite.

Your use of the passive voice for
your particular belief is a bit odd,
but ne'er mind that. I said "he" (sorryah,
I will say "it" if that seems better)
is the opposite of infinite, being non
existent.

Where did I get the idea of "god" as
external? From people who express ideas
about god.

I am no more original in my definitions or
ideas about "god" than a creationist is
with its arguments against evolution.

ETA, if "god" is infinite, then its volume
and mass exceeds that of all the universes?

 

[Audie]

You were lumping me in with traditional theists who view God as a person in the sky. You've done this multiple times in the past, and I thought you had finally gotten that is not how it works. Not everyone who speaks of God, is imagining Noah's Ark really happened, and that God is a person in the sky watching your every move in order to determine if you are on the nice or naughty list. No, not all Americans are fundamentalist Christians. I thought you knew this.

Of course I do. I will leave your chosen misoverinterpretations
for you to work thru if you are so inclined.

 

[Windwalker]

Of course I do. I will leave your chosen misoverinterpretations
for you to work thru if you are so inclined.

"Misoverintepretation"? You lumped me in with others I have little in common with. You've done this many times, and continue to do this despite the facts. Any reason for that?

 

[Audie]

"Misoverintepretation"? You lumped me in with others I have little in common with. You've done this many times, and continue to do this despite the facts. Any reason for that?

In what way did I wrongly lumpulate you? You guys use the
word god. You guys n gals as in god-believers.
If you dont like to be associated with those who would reference
god as "he" I will take note, and try not to. Things that may
seem small to others may be pretty important to me. They may
not get it, but I'd as soon they respect my preference.

Any reason for you to make up this fact about me
thinking all god believers are fundys?
That is the misoverinterpretation I was referring to.

 

[WhyIsThatSo]

Yeah, whatevs.

Yeah, whatevs.

What type of energy is that? How do you measure it?

The "type" is creative, and it's measured by observation..

 

[Audie]

"Misoverintepretation"? You lumped me in with others I have little in common with. You've done this many times, and continue to do this despite the facts. Any reason for that?

Here, you can read you words here, if you think I am exaggerating this:

1. I am not a traditional theist.
2. I am not a "you guys", anymore than all Chinese run laundromats or Asian restaurants
3. I do not believe in a supernatural anything.
4. I do not overthink things when it comes to this.

Your stereotyping is an an example of your 'under-thinking'. Should I imagine this is something typical of "you guys', applying the same stereotyping you?

Wait, you think there is an infinite god, but it is not supernatural?

Any reason for you to make up this fact about me
thinking all god believers are fundys?
That is the misoverinterpretation I was referring to.

Earlier, bty, I confused you with someone who
goes by a name starting with "whirl".
The way I read I just kind of look at the shape of
words.

 

[WhyIsThatSo]

I do not make a choice. Those reasons may be going into the unconscious processing, but there is no conscious choice. Often, it is far from clear to me why I have the reactions I do.

Is really a choice for you?

I think I may understand your situation then......you are not consciously aware.
in other words you have no "self" consciousness. Which is understandable like I say, because MOST people don't.

 

[Windwalker]

In what way did I wrongly lumpulate you? You guys use the
word god. You guys n gals as in god-believers.

I had edited the response to add this, but you replied before you read it, so I'll add it here to explain:

Here, you can read you words here, if you think I am exaggerating this:

"Come now. I am just using you guys' lingos as a matter of
custom and convenience.

A theist prob. is overthinking things.

Howsabout I just say this here supernatural monster you guys
keep talking about dont exist, being the opposite of infinite."
​

1. I am not a traditional theist.
2. I am not a "you guys", anymore than you should be considered as an Asian that you run laundromats or Asian restaurants.
3. I do not believe in a supernatural anything.
4. I do not overthink things when it comes to this.

Your stereotyping is an an example of your 'under-thinking'.

If you dont like to be associated with those who would reference
god as "he" I will take note, and try not to.

It's not just a matter of a gender pronoun, but the entire externalized sky god idea of an anthropomorphic God.

Any reason for you to make up this fact about me
thinking all god believers are fundys?

I am not making this up. You are talking the ideas of God as held by American fundamentalists, and when you hear me say God, you lumped me in with them with the repeated "you guys" comment, despite the fact that there are many who don't think of God at all like that. Are all Asians a "you guys"? Are all blacks a "you guys"? Are all believers in God, a "you guys?" Hardly. This is under-thinking. It's intellectually lazy.

That is the misoverinterpretation I was referring to.

You have done this with me a least a dozen times, even after we have gone through this same exercise. Is this conceptually difficult?