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Featured If Vishnu lectured El

Discussion in 'General Religious Debates' started by Kelly of the Phoenix, Mar 22, 2018.

  1. Kelly of the Phoenix

    Kelly of the Phoenix Well-Known Member

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    I am currently writing a novel. The state of the world today has the "Houses" (pantheons) in a panic. The House of El has summoned other Houses to convene in order to figure out a solution. They are more than happy to give Their opinions, which El will not necessarily enjoy.

    However, I need help. I wish to be respectful and homage the mentioned pantheons correctly. Below is an excerpt where Vishnu lectures El:

    The blue-skinned One was first to speak. “The Trimurti is pleased the House of El has chosen Dharma, for the world surely cannot exist without it. I, Vishnu, have lived many lives. I am everywhere. I am all things.” Seeing El chafe at this, He continued with a slight nod, “Feel not offense, for ‘there was never a time when you and I and all the kings gathered here have not existed and nor will there be a time when we cease to exist.’” He stood, His arms folded against His chest so that the weapons may not be seen to be threatening. “Great El, Bull of Canaan and Father of the House of El, We have debated on Our journey here where Your tribulations may lie.” He nodded towards the One with the crescent moon crown. “Lord Shiva declared that destruction has not been utilized for quite some time. Your House flooded its enemies once. Your House has participated in either word or deed the decimation of Your own followers. Here We are, though, thousands of years later, such a pittance of time for Us all, but to mortals an endless desert of time from which there appears to be no escape. They have spent that time voiding waste upon their own houses, turning their beds to dust and their water to slime and their food to compost. They are suffering, House of El. Suffering is only temporary, as is happiness and peace, as your own Kingdom has seen, for even Your paradises are dotted with tales of woe. This state of affairs must be accepted, but inaction must never be. ‘You have control over doing your respective duty, but no control or claim over the result. Fear of failure, from being emotionally attached to the fruit of work, is the greatest impediment to success because it robs efficiency by constantly disturbing the equanimity of mind.’”

    El raised His hand and Vishnu allowed Him to speak. “My own Sons have accused Me of inaction, Lord Vishnu. On several occasions They berate Their own Father for ignoring the cries of the suffering. They claim They shall be better wards of Our followers, but centuries pass and They squabble like hungry nestlings waiting for the next worm, ignoring the cries Themselves whilst They attend to Their own sense of pride. They act and yet You claim that We are still guilty of inaction.”

    Vishnu nodded, a gentle smile constantly on His face. “ ‘Lust, anger, and greed are the three doors to hell,’” He replied.

    “And yet You tell me Lord Shiva is of the opinion We must in Our anger kill Our followers to punish them and to restore the rightful nature of things.”

    The divine Guest shrugged. “You are attached to the fruit, not the action,” He countered. “I have experienced this before, in the war in northern India named Kurukshetra.” He nodded towards the Others. “Lords Shiva, Brahma, and Myself found Ourselves participating in the deaths and lives of millions. My friend, the archer Arjun, would not raise his Gandiva bow at the start of the war. He and the others had frequently made choices that created that war. Suddenly, he balked at doing his duty as a warrior, for the simple reason that his opponents were family. And yet, that did not stop him and his brothers and his cousins from insulting each other and their wives. They did not stop trying to best each other. I, Myself, had to keep poor Draupadi clothed as the brothers watched while cousins tried to disrobe her publicly at court.”

    “If We are not to care for the outcomes of such things, then what right does the House of Expansion dare accuse Us?”

    Vishnu sighed. “It has been over two thousand years since Your Son came to Me to learn how to be human. In less than a decade, Yahweh found Himself killed. Karma can be quite distressing, as Yahweh discovered, for had He not ignored His people for so long, His avatar’s ministry would’ve lasted longer. Had He listened to His people as a God, He would not have been rejected as a human. Had He not threatened His people with death, He would not have been executed. Had He been kinder to the foreigner, foreigners would not have killed Him. How many millennia must it take for the House of El to understand the nature of Dharma? It is not the action that is sin, but the expectation of the action’s reward. That is what I tried to explain to My friend. For ‘selfish action imprisons the world. Act selflessly, without any thought of personal profit.’ All the thoughts of the House of El blossom from the weed of attachments to reward. This weed will very well grow and spread, giving the appearance of success, and Your fields will be green and lush, but it is choking the life out of the crops meant to sustain You. ‘Our mistake is in taking this for ultimate reality, like the dreamer thinking that nothing is real except his dream.’ You sit on a stone seat, high above Our heads, in a sprawling tent, but should a human attempt to come here, how will they? Do their satellites know of Your location? The very forms We all take in this tent are but manifestations of Our desires. Should any of Us attack, Our wounds will bleed, and these forms will die, but even that is not Our reality. What is it about Your Sons Baal and Yahweh, that They attempt to kill each other endlessly and yet awaken anew after every death? How many times must One reawaken to realize the dream is still going on? ‘The doors of this knowledge are open for everyone. No one is barred out.’ How often must the other Houses hear from the House of El that only the chosen may hear of God? Why grant action for some and inaction for others? ‘Therefore the doubts which have arisen in your heart out of ignorance should be slashed by the weapon of knowledge.’ From Your own stories, ignorance is blessed. The first followers are condemned for desiring knowledge.” He shook His head. “Such things lead only to despair."

    My question is, would this be accurate in how Hindus, particularly those who worship Vishnu, would see things? Am I close or way off base? I would greatly appreciate your help. <3 :)
     
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  2. Orbit

    Orbit I'm a planet

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    Some Hindus believe Christ was a manifestation of Vishnu. That's all I've got for you.
     
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  3. Sunstone

    Sunstone De Diablo Del Fora
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    Good luck with the novel! :)
     
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  4. Terese

    Terese Mangalam Pundarikakshah
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    I am pleased with your interpretation of Lord Vishnu in your story. Elegant, dispassionate, kind, strong, these are a few of the attributes that are present in him, and has found its way in your story too :D
     
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  5. Axe Elf

    Axe Elf Prophet

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    I don't know about the Hindu stuff, but I think it would be really cool at this point if the Kool-Aid man were to burst through the wall, bellowing his iconic "OH YEAAAAAHHHHHH!!!"
     
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  6. wizanda

    wizanda One Accepts All Religious Texts
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    We need a plot twist, as great novels always have one...

    So here is the plot twist based on the religious texts, El is working with Vishnu; thus tho it seems they've done many things that seem contrary to the Dharma, it is Lila to catch out the demons at the end of it.

    In my opinion. :innocent:
     
  7. atanu

    atanu Member
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    Yeah. Great. If you could provide a little background for us who are not clear of the hierarchy of El, His house, and all related.

    In my opinion, however, a talk with Vishnu is an inner talk.
     
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  8. Buddha Dharma

    Buddha Dharma Dharma Practitioner

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    I like how you depicted El as a father god with Yahweh as his son, which not many people are aware used to be one view.
     
  9. wizanda

    wizanda One Accepts All Religious Texts
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    This needs to be more specific to match Hebraic texts; else it is the Canaanite belief.

    El Shaddai (God Almighty) is made manifest in the form of YHVH Elohim (Exodus 6:2-3).

    El Elyon (God Most High) is more like equal to the concept of Brahman.

    EL Elyon 'and' Elohim are seen as separate in multiple places (2 Samuel 22:14 & Psalms 18:13 Yahweh thundered from heaven 'and' The Most High uttered his voice. + Psalms 50:14 + Psalms 78:35 + Psalms 92:1).

    In my opinion. :innocent:
     
  10. Vinayaka

    Vinayaka devotee
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    Totally depends on which Hindus you talk to. Hindus generally don't have pack mentality. Usually nobody gets offended.
     
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  11. Kelly of the Phoenix

    Kelly of the Phoenix Well-Known Member

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    Thanks. I've watched BR Choppra's Mahabharata a couple of times on Youtube, as well as an anime of the Ramayana. I mean no disrespect to the other deities, but Vishnu seems pretty epic. If anyone has some stories centering on the others in the Trimurti, that'd be helpful. :)

    As they're all in a tent, he'd just get tangled up in the fabric. "OOOOOH, SSSHHHHHH ..."

    This is actually a rewrite of my first book, which I pulled from Amazon to rewrite after Blu was nice enough to critique it. <3

    The twist there was that the God everyone assumes they've been worshipping was not Yahweh, who was asleep in the ocean, but Baal, and the two constantly try to kill each other take credit for each other's actions.

    There will be twists and subterfuge in this story as well. :)

    I am going to devote an entire chapter to each House that convenes in this Council. Next up is the Jade Emperor's pantheon, but I don't know a lot about Taoism. I have watched a 2011 version of Journey to the West, but He's kind of a dick in that story and I need an opinion native to the deity. The last will be the Council of El, hinted at in the bible but largely a pre-Jewish/Canaanite pantheon. Native Americans don't seem to have an organized hierarchy of beings, so they aren't invited, but that will come to bite Them in the butt later (the entire series will be called The Trickster Wars).

    Well, I get it, and that's why Vishnu in my story tries to tell El that this isn't really real anyway, a show for the ego of El, who prefers humanoid appearances and cultural quirks. Also, Vishnu, as Krishna anyway, would be considered a Trickster at least in personality, and in my books Tricksters will be able to break the 4th wall at times, realizing this is just a story, because I find it thematically important that only those who ignore social niceties will be able to see things clearly. :)

    Yeah, I've been in a Pre-Jewish mood lately. I find the ancient "Canaanite" texts fascinating because their texts have Baal winning the position of King of Kings while in the bible Yahweh does. I guess it's like how Jews say Isaac was nearly sacrificed while Muslims say it was Ishmael.

    I'm actually going for the Canaanite versions, as the bible reeks of political "whitewashing" after the decision to have monotheism was made. Monotheism was never a thing since the beginning of Jewish history, especially the pre-Jewish "Hebrew" history. They were always henotheistic if not flat-out polytheistic. We don't start seeing "Judaism" until late in the monarchy, when the civil war happens and Israel splits with Judah (where we even get the term for the religion). It further cements during the Babylonian Exile. As the books of the bible were being formulated around the monarchy/exile period, we see the polytheistic past downplayed or even removed in favor of its current form. Plus, the bible itself becomes more and more agnostic, in a way, since God starts off able to walk in a garden physically to speaking from on High to speaking through angels to speaking through prophets who speak for angels to ...

    Eventually we're left with clergy speaking for authors who spoke for all of the above. Hardly any divine participation at all.

    Thanks. I don't want to offend. I realize whitewashing, eurocentrism, stereotyping, etc are huge problems and I'd like to avoid them. I was a big fan of Xena and after the Indian arc of her storyline, they essentially had to apologize to Hindus. It's a result I'd like to avoid. :)
     
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  12. Kelly of the Phoenix

    Kelly of the Phoenix Well-Known Member

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  13. Buddha Dharma

    Buddha Dharma Dharma Practitioner

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    I suggest that the Hebraic texts are rooted in Canaanite belief. Of course, one might ask: could I prove that? Not beyond some strong circumstantial evidence, as it were.
     
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  14. SomeRandom

    SomeRandom Still learning to be wise

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    I love Xena, but that arc was a bit "tugging at the sweaty shirt collar"
    They did something similar in Supernatural if I recall. Don't know if they had to apologize though.
     
  15. Kelly of the Phoenix

    Kelly of the Phoenix Well-Known Member

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    This isn't mine, but I find it useful:
    https://www.amazon.com/Early-Histor...5235&sr=8-1&keywords=the+early+history+of+god

    While I get it may have seemed blasphemous, it's like they never WATCHED the show. Both Hercules and Xena were super camp and not respectful at all. Both series went down the drain after Kevin Sorbo (at least, don't know about Lucy Lawless) went full fundy and the shows killed off nearly all the gods because there was One God who would be even BETTER.
     
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  16. SomeRandom

    SomeRandom Still learning to be wise

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    People are touchy, what can you do.
     
  17. wizanda

    wizanda One Accepts All Religious Texts
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    I used to think the same on a surface level, before questioning the Biblical text more:

    In Deuteronomy 32:7-9 El Elyon separated the nation between the Elohim, and gives YHVH Israel as his nation; which meant there were two characters in the original Hebraic understanding.

    Zechariah 14:21 says there will no longer be Canaanites in the land after Judgement day, and YHVH's name shall be one over the whole world (Zechariah 14:9).

    There are multiple occasions where El Elyon 'and' YHVH Elohim are seen as separate beings; i specifically like this verse as it is almost correcting the comprehension in theological understanding, and has been completely missed by most.

    Isaiah 46:9 *Remember the former things of old*: for I am El, and there is no other; Elohim ^and none^ are like me.

    *This is paraphrasing to remember back to Deuteronomy 32:7... ^This is poetic phrasing that is then found in Isaiah 47:8 - Isaiah 47:10, & Zephaniah 2:15.

    In my opinion. :innocent:
     
  18. Buddha Dharma

    Buddha Dharma Dharma Practitioner

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    @wizanda you're insisting on the monotheistic interpretation being correct though, and further assuming the Deuteronomist compilers of the traditions were faithful to them. The current Biblical material is likely heavily edited.

    The way we can show it is edited is because the editors were in places lazy with the editing. They left in certain hints like El having a daughter also, called Wisdom. Also, Samson as a certain Shamgar son of Anat has been retained in a few verses. This was an understanding of him as a demigod, and son of the goddess Anat.
     
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  19. Kelly of the Phoenix

    Kelly of the Phoenix Well-Known Member

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    How do your quotes not show a definite Canaanite relationship?
     
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  20. wizanda

    wizanda One Accepts All Religious Texts
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    There is a relationship by some of the same language, and names...

    Yet I understand the Hebraic texts to have a God Most High that creates reality, and then a council of Elohim (Psalms 82:1), with YHVH at its head.

    The Canaanites just had the physical council, and no God Most High creating reality.

    Which is the plot twist, as like in Revelation, there is God Almighty (El Shaddai), 24 Elders (Elohim) plus Yeshua as Lord of Lords, which means he is YHVH Elohim.

    Just the same as we find in Hinduism that Kalki is the 25th Avatar of Vishnu; with Brahman creating reality.

    In my opinion. :innocent:
     
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