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"If there was a good guy with a gun" argument

columbus

yawn <ignore> yawn
Since the basis for guns rights isn’t “If everyone is armed, everyone will be polite", you have no point. The basis is that the right to bear arms is inalienable. Gun rights don’t require justification. It is a right.
That's only true here in violence wracked USA.
But more to the point, it's irrelevant. I'm not talking about the 2nd Amendment, I talking about the "An armed society is a polite society" nonsense that I hear quite frequently.
Tom
 

Shaul

Well-Known Member
Premium Member
That's only true here in violence wracked USA.
But more to the point, it's irrelevant. I'm not talking about the 2nd Amendment, I talking about the "An armed society is a polite society" nonsense that I hear quite frequently.
Tom
No. Although it is the U.S. Constitution that put it into writing, the concept of a inalienable right is that it must apply universally. There are many inalienable rights. There is the right to speak freely and the right to personal property. There is also a universal right to bear arms. Yes, these rights are trampled upon in sundry times and places. But they still exist. Everywhere. These rights exist independent of those that choose not to acknowledge them.

Again, since rights need no justification, the right to bear arms does rely on your “An armed society is a polite society” argument whatsoever.
 

Father Heathen

Veteran Member
In other words, because you have a vivid imagination people should give up their guns.

I never said that anyone "should give up their guns", so perhaps it's you with the "vivid imagination". I was just shooting down people's Hollywood hero action flick fantasies with logic, that's all.
 

Salvador

RF's Swedenborgian
I never said that anyone "should give up their guns", so perhaps it's you with the "vivid imagination". I was just shooting down people's Hollywood hero action flick fantasies with logic, that's all.

Texas church shooting hero left his shoes, picked up a gun


Armed Bystanders Shoot, Kill Gunman Who Opened Fire at Oklahoma City Restaurant




 

Shaul

Well-Known Member
Premium Member
I never said that anyone "should give up their guns", so perhaps it's you with the "vivid imagination". I was just shooting down people's Hollywood hero action flick fantasies with logic, that's all.
So then what was the point of your reductio ad absurdum? Don’t be disingenuous.
 

Salvador

RF's Swedenborgian
So then what was the point of your reductio ad absurdum? Don’t be disingenuous.

I've provided real live instances where a good guy with a gun stopped a bad guy with a gun, so now nobody here should think good guys stopping bad guys with guns is just Hollywood fantasy.

Edited: Typo of guy guy corrected to good guy.
 
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Salvador

RF's Swedenborgian
In 2016 there were 71 mass shooting deaths, 49 of them happened when Islamic extremist Omar Mateen slaughtered people at an Orlando nightclub frequented by gays. This same year, there were 331 justifiable homicides. The number of justifiable homicides where an armed criminal is killed by an well-armed private citizen is far greater than the number of people shot by a mass shooter.
 

Shaul

Well-Known Member
Premium Member
I've provided real live instances where a guy guy with a gun stopped a bad guy with a gun, so now nobody here should think good guys stopping bad guys with guns is just Hollywood fantasy.
Live instances? There has been gun fights here at RF?
What’s a “guy guy”?
 

Twilight Hue

Twilight, not bright nor dark, good nor bad.
I feel guns are mostly useless. Just because you have a gun, doesn't mean you won't get overpowered, or the criminal won't have a much better gun.
It never is or was the gun. The best or worst weapon will always be the human mind.
 

Salvador

RF's Swedenborgian
This is not the norm and would not be the norm if everyone was armed.

Justifiable homicides are far more the norm than are mass-shooting homicides.

In 2016 there were 71 mass shooting deaths, 49 of them happened when Islamic extremist Omar Mateen slaughtered people at an Orlando nightclub frequented by gays. This same year, there were 331 justifiable homicides. The number of justifiable homicides where an armed criminal is killed by an well-armed private citizen is far greater than the number of people shot by a mass shooter.
 

Salvador

RF's Swedenborgian
Define "good guy with a gun?"

I'd consider a good guy with a gun to be any non-psychopathic non-psychotic gun owner, who would use his gun with the intent of hunting , self defense, or protecting the lives of people against being slaughtered by homicidal criminals.

 
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Dan From Smithville

What's up Doc?
Staff member
Premium Member
The idea of "good" is highly subjective. Of course gun owners (myself included) would believe that someone who owns an instrument that has the ability to take life is responsible, intelligent, just, would be definitively and demonstrably good. However like anything when pushed to its limit, goodness can have its own fatigue where a person can incorrectly judge a situation where use of deadly force which originally thought was necessary became unnecessary. I take into account the recent example of Michael Drejka who was recently convicted of killing a man over a handicap spot. His argument of course was the stand your ground law, because he felt he was in imminent danger. Viewing the video footage, jurors saw after Drejka was pushed to the ground, the victim step back after Drejka displayed the weapon indicating that he was not advancing and therefore not a threat, but the victim was still shot and ultimately died in front of his son and girlfriend (see source).

I take also another example of a man by the name of George Meyer who pulled his gun in a Church by the name of Grace Christian Academy who did so under the pretense to show the martial arts instructor that martial arts isn't necessary when one has a weapon in a confrontation. So, to demonstrate that Meyer pulls out his gun and says "bang you're dead." In his defense Meyer claims to not have pointed the weapon, only to demonstrate his position regarding the argument (see source).

Most certainly all of us who respond to mass shootings wish that there was some reconditioning of gun legislations, some on the other side believe that there ought to be more people with weapons to defend against mass shootings. As @ChristineM (or @Saint Frankenstein maybe??) once said in a discussion "if everyone had a weapon then how could police discern between friendly and villian? It would appear that having more guns is not the solution to our modern problem involving mass shootings. What I'm more concerned about is the individual who believes guns and not diplomacy is the answer. I'm concerned about the drunkard who is carrying a concealed weapon legally who gets into an argument and decides to use his weapon. I'm concerned about the racist who hates this or that culture and decides to pull out his weapon because he cannot stand the sound of rap lyrics.

I'm concerned about these so-called pretentious good guys who are lawfully carrying weapons but do not exercise good judgment. I'm also concerned with the idea that the "good guy" argument is not allocated to everyone. When people of color carry weapons it is a problem as we saw in the banning of assault weapons (called the Mulford Act) in California's capital of Sacramento. It wasn't banned because assault weapons caused deaths it was banned because of the Black Panthers exercising their second amendment rights (see
source). Or when a good guy like the security officer stopping a criminal but happened to be carrying a weapon himself, shot and killed by a police officer (see source).

I firmly believe the idea of 'good guy' fails because we don't know every single person walking on this earth nor their intentions. I understand we wont be able to prevent mass shootings or criminal activity involving guns, but what we don't need are people being judge, jury, and executioner in these streets.
The idea occurred to me in the aftermath of the Las Vegas shooting that individual citizens running around the crowd could do more harm than good and even end with some shooting at each other. There is not much a person with a handgun could have done in the chaos at night to stop a shooter from a superior position 400 yards away anyhow.
 
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