If There are More Than One God, Then How Do We Know That There are More Than One God?

[beenherebeforeagain]

Let me emphasize that this thread is in the Interfaith Discussion forum; No Debating!

This thread/question was inspired by @Sunstone 's similarly-titled thread elsewhere. His exiting question had to do with multiple rather than a singular god--but efforts to insert pluralism into the discussion didn't seem to work well, so...

This is primarily for members of the Indigenous, Neopagan/Revival, Syncretic, and the Pantheism/Panentheism DIRs (as well as to others who have belief in multiple gods, such as Hindus) to discuss the multiplicity of deity…or if you prefer the term, Polytheism. Others are of course welcome to ask questions and provide respectful observations--but again, this is DISCUSSION and NOT DEBATE.

For this discussion, the meaning of the term "god" is the first usage in the Oxford English Dictionary:

1a. A superhuman person regarded as having power over nature and human fortunes; a deity…Chiefly applied to the divinities of polytheistic systems; … in Greek mythology, the gods are distinguished from the daemons or supernatural powers of inferior rank… (emphasis added)

Notice, too, that the definition summarizes the first sentence by providing the term “deity,” as a functional equivalent (the two terms use each other in their definitions):

1. a. The estate or rank of a god; godhood; the personality of a god; godship; esp. with poss. pron.

b. The divine quality, character, or nature of God; Godhood, divinity; the divine nature and attributes, the Godhead.

2. a. concr. A divinity, a divine being, a god; one of the gods worshipped by a people or tribe.

b. fig. An object of worship; a thing or person deified.

So, the word “god” means:

-The estate or rank of A superhuman person regarded as having power over nature and human fortunes

-Any person (or other equivalent entity) who is regarded as having power over nature and human fortunes

-The personality of any superhuman person regarded as having power over nature and human fortunes

-The divine quality, character, or nature of A superhuman person regarded as having power over nature and human fortunes

-Any superhuman person regarded as having power over nature and human fortunes worshiped by a people or tribe

So, the questions for discussion here:

Does this definition make sense to you? How does your understanding differ?
What is your experience with deities?
How do you know there is more than one, what their nature is, etc.?

 

[metis]

I'm sticking with "I don't know" as I don't think there's any way of knowing.

 

[beenherebeforeagain]

I'm sticking with "I don't know" as I don't think there's any way of knowing.

But someone ALWAYS has answers for questions like this!

 

[buddhist]

Can't it be said that, as humans, are like deities to animals, insects, etc.? And that there are many of us?

 

[Quintessence]

Does this definition make sense to you? How does your understanding differ?

I have a problem with the "power over" language in those definitions, because it presumes a separation between the category called "gods" and the category called "nature." This is simply not the case in many theologies (including my own), where the gods are essentially mythopoetic renditions of various forces of nature. When polytheistic folks sing of gods like Phobos, Phobos is not a "power over" fear, Phobos is fear - it's a deification or personification of fear itself, not a "puppeteer behind the curtain" that transcends it. This is a very important thing to keep in mind about polytheistic theologies, I think, because the prevailing understanding of the gods outside of polytheism is quite the opposite of this - their one-god is a sort of puppeteer behind the curtain who has "power over" nature without actually being nature. As such, that type of god is supernatural, whereas the gods of polytheistic religions are... well... it's more debatable, we'll say.

What is your experience with deities?

In a word? Varied.

As noted above, it's my understanding that gods are the various aspects of the reality we live in, so in a sense, everything I experience is an experience of the gods. I don't usually frame this into any particular cultural mythology or what get described as "pantheons" with a historical precedent. My tradition focuses on the aspects of reality that *I* experience on a day-to-day basis, which means it is grounded in my local area. I'm too mindful of the issues with Native American cultural appropriation to want to borrow from indigenous traditions, so I am left re-creating something like that from scratch and developing a relationship with the lands here. Some of that takes the form of academic study, particularly in the natural sciences. Some of that takes the form of studying folklore. Some of that takes the form of simply experiencing living life directly.

How do you know there is more than one, what their nature is, etc.?

Mentioned this in the other thread, but when your gods are basically the aspects of reality around you, it's mostly a commonsense conclusion. We know trees are not rocks, rocks are not humans, humans are not thunderstorms. You get to know the natures of the gods through study and experience - science, folklore, direct experience.

 

[beenherebeforeagain]

Can't it be said that, as humans, are like deities to animals, insects, etc.? And that there are many of us?

Well, don't all humans look alike (to say, a small insect)? Maybe there aren't a lot of us, just one that appears mysteriously in different places at different times, sometimes even in two places at the same time....

 

[beenherebeforeagain]

I have a problem with the "power over" language in those definitions, because it presumes a separation between the category called "gods" and the category called "nature." This is simply not the case in many theologies (including my own), where the gods are essentially mythopoetic renditions of various forces of nature. When polytheistic folks sing of gods like Phobos, Phobos is not a "power over" fear, Phobos is fear - it's a deification or personification of fear itself, not a "puppeteer behind the curtain" that transcends it. This is a very important thing to keep in mind about polytheistic theologies, I think, because the prevailing understanding of the gods outside of polytheism is quite the opposite of this - their one-god is a sort of puppeteer behind the curtain who has "power over" nature without actually being nature. As such, that type of god is supernatural, whereas the gods of polytheistic religions are... well... it's more debatable, we'll say.



In a word? Varied.

As noted above, it's my understanding that gods are the various aspects of the reality we live in, so in a sense, everything I experience is an experience of the gods. I don't usually frame this into any particular cultural mythology or what get described as "pantheons" with a historical precedent. My tradition focuses on the aspects of reality that *I* experience on a day-to-day basis, which means it is grounded in my local area. I'm too mindful of the issues with Native American cultural appropriation to want to borrow from indigenous traditions, so I am left re-creating something like that from scratch and developing a relationship with the lands here. Some of that takes the form of academic study, particularly in the natural sciences. Some of that takes the form of studying folklore. Some of that takes the form of simply experiencing living life directly.



Mentioned this in the other thread, but when your gods are basically the aspects of reality around you, it's mostly a commonsense conclusion. We know trees are not rocks, rocks are not humans, humans are not thunderstorms. You get to know the natures of the gods through study and experience - science, folklore, direct experience.

Very good reply, Q! While I used the OED, I too noted how tainted by monotheism it was...that's why there are ellipses...

Yeah, to me (because I don't do gods right now), the spirits are natural, are nature...and that's a different perspective than the dualist Western views of matter and spirit, or mind and matter. And its definitely different than the monist views of everything either being (part of the one) spirit, or matter/energy.

I'm really hoping to hear from some of those who follow traditional or reconstruction pantheons in their practices!

 

[metis]

But someone ALWAYS has answers for questions like this!

I hear ya.

 

[George-ananda]

If There are More Than One God, Then How Do We Know That There are More Than One God?

In my non-dual (God and creation are not-two) Advaita school of thought, there is only one God/Brahman with a capital 'G' but an unlimited number of gods with a lower-case 'g'. Lower-case gods are beings on the higher planes. God/Brahman is the all.

 

[Quintessence]

Very good reply, Q! While I used the OED, I too noted how tainted by monotheism it was...that's why there are ellipses...

Huh... that's what those were. Pretty much all discussion about religion/theism in the West assumes classical monotheism. Various Christian and Islamic traditions were quite successful in their warsome purge to wipe out other points of view in many parts of the world, for better or worse. What I find particularly striking is how utterly blind people in these cultures are to that bias. It's that powerful. We very much have to go out of our way to get rid of that bias, and it's hard. Most have neither the motivation nor inclination to do so.

Yeah, to me (because I don't do gods right now), the spirits are natural, are nature...and that's a different perspective than the dualist Western views of matter and spirit, or mind and matter. And its definitely different than the monist views of everything either being (part of the one) spirit, or matter/energy.

Gods... spirits... potayto, potahto to me. And yeah, it is rather distinctive. Good way to frame it is to talk about gods/spirits like human persons. If you ask a question like "do you believe there is only one person?" (monism/monotheism) you will probably get really strange looks thrown your way. Likewise if you ask a question like "do you believe there are only two persons that are complete opposites of each other?" (dualism/duotheism).

I'm really hoping to hear from some of those who follow traditional or reconstruction pantheons in their practices!

I hope so too. I've honored some of those gods on and off (benefit of polytheism is you don't have to pick teams), but I certainly can't lay claim to following such a thing with that level of dedication.

 

[beenherebeforeagain]

Bump.
I'm really hoping to get more polytheist feedback, please!

 

[GoodbyeDave]

Well, here's some for you!

I don't think you can put a precise definition on the concept of god. Gods come in many varieties and the only thing you can say about gods is that people have found them worshipful. In my variety of paganism, we distinguish "gods", who have always been such, from "heroes", who were once human, but in Japan the term "kami" does for both.

For me, a basic philosophical tenet is that things are what they seem unless and until they are proved to be otherwise: I'm a realist. If people experience multiple gods, then that's evidence for multiple gods. If some-one — Wiccan or Advita Hindu — is going to say they're all manifestations of something else, I want some very good evidence, just as I'd want it to persuade me that the tree outside the window and the computer I'm using are manifestations of something else!

 

[beenherebeforeagain]

Well, here's some for you!

I don't think you can put a precise definition on the concept of god. Gods come in many varieties and the only thing you can say about gods is that people have found them worshipful. In my variety of paganism, we distinguish "gods", who have always been such, from "heroes", who were once human, but in Japan the term "kami" does for both.

For me, a basic philosophical tenet is that things are what they seem unless and until they are proved to be otherwise: I'm a realist. If people experience multiple gods, then that's evidence for multiple gods. If some-one — Wiccan or Advita Hindu — is going to say they're all manifestations of something else, I want some very good evidence, just as I'd want it to persuade me that the tree outside the window and the computer I'm using are manifestations of something else!

thanks for the reply! As a Hellenic Pagan, how do you experience the deities? How do you know there are more than one, what their nature is, and so on?

I suspect that non-polytheists might suspect that, "oh, David just really liked the myths in the books and decided to pretend that they really exist." or, that David is a nut for believing in all these Greek gods and myths and whatnot...

And, how do you differentiate between the gods, the demigods, Heroes, etc.?

 

[GoodbyeDave]

As I said, I accept the evidence of multiple witnesses. I've never experienced Odin or Ganesha, but lots of people have and that's good enough for me. I've never experienced a naked mole-rat for that matter. If people want to say anyone who accepts such teaching is a nut, they might want to stop and ask what evidence there is for the things they believe in, whether the divinity of Jesus or the truth of atheism. How many who believe in evolution could set out all the evidence?

My own experience includes direct awareness and answered prayer, but I don't pretend to have an intense spiritual life. Perhaps that's what I like about the Hellenic gods: I don't think I want something as intense as Vodun.

I don't think a classification of divinities is important or useful. Some Greeks considered Asklepios a god, others a hero: I'm not concerned.

 

[syo]

-The estate or rank of A superhuman person regarded as having power over nature and human fortunes

-Any person (or other equivalent entity) who is regarded as having power over nature and human fortunes

-The personality of any superhuman person regarded as having power over nature and human fortunes

-The divine quality, character, or nature of A superhuman person regarded as having power over nature and human fortunes

-Any superhuman person regarded as having power over nature and human fortunes worshiped by a people or tribe

if god is one who controls people's lives then this one god must be pleased. so people naturally want an alternative god to help them if that one god isn't pleased. so many gods are created.