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If the Universe Required a Creator ...
- Thread starter PackJason
- Start date
Per classical monotheist theology, their one-god is, by definition, the uncaused cause, or uncreated creator. With respect to that theology, this isn't really a valid question.
PackJason
I make up facts.
Of course it's a valid question ... As long as you don't do mental gymnastics to avoid answering it.
It must have been Super god.
Actually, this "God" fellow is just one of many gods, each of whom plays with universes.
We know very little about their society & its origins.
But some have postulated that they were created by "Ubergod", who is one of many ubergods.
Their society & origins would be even less amenable to study.
Some even say this "turtles" all the way up.....or down.
Sultan Of Swing
Well-Known Member
The classic Aristotelian argument is that there must be a first uncaused cause. There can't be an infinite line of causes going backwards, there has to be a first one. So by definition if there must be a first cause, it must be uncaused, and so if this is God there is nothing that created Him.
I'm just explaining the position. God is meant to answer what that first cause is according to the argument. I'm not throwing my hat in to defend the argument.
See what @Sultan Of Swing posted. The question you are asking doesn't make much sense if you understand the original argument and that particular god-concept. The one-god is, by definition, the uncaused cause. It has no creator, by definition. Period. Now, we can agree or disagree with that theological idea, but it is what it is.
buddhist
Well-Known Member
As I interpret early Buddhism, a creator (any being possessed with volitional will), in its ignorance, creates another who becomes born of ignorance, in an endless chain of creation.
PackJason
I make up facts.
Sultan Of Swing
Well-Known Member
It's so nice to see someone taking the study and understanding of theology seriously on a forum dedicated to such things.
PackJason
I make up facts.
Demonslayer
Well-Known Member
Then how can someone who holds this position say "everything has to have a cause" or "something can't just come from nothing?"
Those who say these things then have to immediately reverse their statement by saying "well, GOD doesn't have a cause" and "GOD can come from nothing."
If there is a first uncaused cause, who says it has to be called God? Why can't the universe be the first uncaused cause? Or a Cosmic Giraffe?
Demonslayer
Well-Known Member
Demonslayer
Well-Known Member
Yeah, that part not supposed to be inside the quote box:
Wrong, the universe has always existed.
Wrong, the universe has always existed.
Sultan Of Swing
Well-Known Member
Eh, I didn't want to defend the argument but you're misunderstanding it and I'd just like to clarify what the position actually says.Then how can someone who holds this position say "everything has to have a cause" or "something can't just come from nothing?"
Those who say these things then have to immediately reverse their statement by saying "well, GOD doesn't have a cause" and "GOD can come from nothing."
If there is a first uncaused cause, who says it has to be called God? Why can't the universe be the first uncaused cause? Or a Cosmic Giraffe?
People who properly hold the position would probably take a William Lane Craig approach of saying "Everything that begins to exist has a cause", which of course would not include God. The statement "something can't come from nothing" also only applies to things that have a beginning, if God always existed, there was no point in time where there was a 'nothing' that He had to come from.
And if there is an uncaused cause, you're right it doesn't have to be a specific God, not necessarily the Christian one, but based on a series of deductions it is said to have god-like qualities, and so maybe it is a "Cosmic Giraffe" but you'd have to concede a god-like being existed and caused all things.
The universe can't be the cause because the universe doesn't cause itself, and is argued it must have had a beginning, based both on philosophy (problem of infinities going into the past) and science (current big bang cosmology supporting a definitive beginning of the known universe)
Sultan Of Swing
Well-Known Member
You can edit your original post.
Demonslayer
Well-Known Member
Oh, dang I didn't realize that.
Demonslayer
Well-Known Member
I understand the idea, I've heard it before. The fatal flaw is you can replace the word "God" with "the universe" or "a Cosmic Giraffe" and it works just as well. The universe could have just always been, just as easily as "God" could have always been. Pantheists, if I'm not mistaken, believe the universe is God, which is one philosophy that would lend "god-like quailities" to the universe, and thus would allow anything this theory supposes about God to be true for the god-like universe as well.
In my humble opinion, of course.
Demonslayer
Well-Known Member
Actually, isn't that God I see in your avatar???