If the Rich needs to pay their fair share in taxes, Biden needs a mirror then.

[Subduction Zone]

I've been doing my research and I've come up with three possibilities.

1. They are so truly ignorant and uneducated that they actually believe everything that the Orange Clown says and truly believe that the election was stolen and that the My Pillow guy is a genius. They're also likely to be QAnon followers
2. After January they finally realized that their Great Leader was genuinely a psychotic moron who attempted to overthrow our nations legitimate election, but after 4 years of supporting the idiot their egos are too fragile to admit it, so now they try and down-play his traitorous activities or pretend like they didn't even happen.
3. They are among the Anti-American fascists who adore the Orange Clown because he helped legitimize their bigotry and hatred and are looking forward to eventually having their armed insurrection.

I was going to add a fourth, but "Being too embarrassed to admit that they were wrong" appears to fin in number 2 of your list.

 

[Twilight Hue]

I've been doing my research and I've come up with three possibilities.

1. They are so truly ignorant and uneducated that they actually believe everything that the Orange Clown says and truly believe that the election was stolen and that the My Pillow guy is a genius. They're also likely to be QAnon followers
2. After January they finally realized that their Great Leader was genuinely a psychotic moron who attempted to overthrow our nations legitimate election, but after 4 years of supporting the idiot their egos are too fragile to admit it, so now they try and down-play his traitorous activities or pretend like they didn't even happen.
3. They are among the Anti-American fascists who adore the Orange Clown because he helped legitimize their bigotry and hatred and are looking forward to eventually having their armed insurrection.

Well, that explains why they act that way.

Wonder who it was whom pushed them to that?

 

[QuestioningMind]

Well, that explains why they act that way.

Wonder who it was whom pushed them to that?

I didn't see many supporters of the Orange Clown get 'pushed' into following him... for the most part they gleefully ran towards their Great Leader and sadly far too many still do.

Here's an idea, instead of desperately searching for someone else to blame, how about suggesting that people take personal responsibility for their own actions? Of course I shouldn't be surprised, since their hero the Orange Clown ALWAYS blames someone else for his misfortunes and NEVER takes personal responsibility, why should they be any different?

 

[Kenny]

Debt can be a complex issue. And it is not all bad. What we need to do is to avoid excessive debt. It all relies upon the cost of money.

Let me explain. If housing prices are increasing by 15% a year but the cost of a loan is only 5% a year it makes more sense to continually get into more debt as long as one can make the payments. One's wealth will grow faster than one's debt does. I do believe that quite a few millionaires understand this concept. Once one starts investing in housing as a method of making money plowing more money back into it, often in the form of loans, only increases one's wealth.

So just claiming that "debt is bad" is naive. Due to the pandemic our debt increased too quickly. That could easily result in some strong inflation. Which many do not realize is actually a tax. It is a tax on wealth when it is just held as money and not goods and property.

I can understand how people freak out about debt, but if managed it is not a problem, it is an asset. If our government did not have the debt that it has our standard of living would actually be lower. I am far from being an expert so I have no idea what the ideal annual deficit would be. But we actually want a deficit for optimal growth.

You can play now and pay later or pay now and play later. Whatever you do later you do with interest.

The housing example doesn't apply to government debt. You can start with a lower standard of living that ends up with a higher standard of living or you can start with a higher standard of living and end up with a comparative lower standard of living in the long run.

"When Steven turned 21, he decided to start investing $200 a month every year for nine years. At age 30, he decided to stop investing altogether. But his friend John started when Steven stopped, investing $200 a month every month starting at age 30, all the way until the ripe old age of 68.

So at age 68, who do you think had more money in their account? Let’s do the math.

At the end of nine years, Steven invested $21,600, didn’t invest another dime, and ended up with close to $2.35 million at age 68. Let’s say that again—$2.35 million! That’s the power of compound interest, friends." David Ramsey.

He started at a lower standard of living but ended up on the high end over time.

The debt we have will end up bitting us in the rear end.

 

[Shadow Wolf]

Here's an idea, instead of desperately searching for someone else to blame, how about suggesting that people take personal responsibility for their own actions? Of course I shouldn't be surprised, since their hero the Orange Clown ALWAYS blames someone else for his misfortunes and NEVER takes personal responsibility, why should they be any different?

That is a height in what baffles me in people thinking him an alpha male, or even anyone of good character. He takes responsibility for nothing. It is always someone else's fault, and it's always accompanied by insults we'd expect from children.

 

[Subduction Zone]

You can play now and pay later or pay now and play later. Whatever you do later you do with interest.

The housing example doesn't apply to government debt. You can start with a lower standard of living that ends up with a higher standard of living or you can start with a higher standard of living and end up with a comparative lower standard of living in the long run.

"When Steven turned 21, he decided to start investing $200 a month every year for nine years. At age 30, he decided to stop investing altogether. But his friend John started when Steven stopped, investing $200 a month every month starting at age 30, all the way until the ripe old age of 68.

So at age 68, who do you think had more money in their account? Let’s do the math.

At the end of nine years, Steven invested $21,600, didn’t invest another dime, and ended up with close to $2.35 million at age 68. Let’s say that again—$2.35 million! That’s the power of compound interest, friends." David Ramsey.

He started at a lower standard of living but ended up on the high end over time.

The debt we have will end up bitting us in the rear end.

It actually does. What we are doing as a country is investing in America. The same as a business person investing in housing. If the rate of increase in value is greater than the interest rate of the loan it makes sense to go into debt whether you are a country or a business or even an individual. What one has to do is to make sure that the debt is not too great to maintain payments.

I know that a balanced budget sounds like a good idea, but it is bad economics. Your attempt to apply compound interest fails because you forgot that applies to growth as well. You can't use that argument just for the debt. in fact that very same argument applies to the simple growth model I was talking about, but if I forgot the interest on the debt you would have cried foul.

 

[Kenny]

It actually does. What we are doing as a country is investing in America. The same as a business person investing in housing. If the rate of increase in value is greater than the interest rate of the loan it makes sense to go into debt whether you are a country or a business or even an individual. What one has to do is to make sure that the debt is not too great to maintain payments.

I know that a balanced budget sounds like a good idea, but it is bad economics. Your attempt to apply compound interest fails because you forgot that applies to growth as well. You can't use that argument just for the debt. in fact that very same argument applies to the simple growth model I was talking about, but if I forgot the interest on the debt you would have cried foul.

I guess we will have to agree to disagree.

I personally invest and, yes, when I bought a home I added debt with a purpose. However, my assets were greater than my liabilities. When my house was payed for, it increased my capacity to invest. When I had an equal amount of debt and income, my capacity to invest was nil.

As time goes by, my liabilities decreased while my assets increased. As assets increased, investment capacity increased. It is sound foundational principles.

The United States is increasing liabilities but the assets are not increasing. If it were a business, it would have filed for bankruptcy. The fact they are forced to raise the debt level is a sure sign they have poor fiscal management. If you were to make a poll, you would probably (IMO) find that the vast majority would agree that the management of the assets fail the test of proper management.

To suggest that it isn't a good thing to have compounding interest is to violate the reality that every successful person uses that principle.

 

[Subduction Zone]

I guess we will have to agree to disagree.

I personally invest and, yes, when I bought a home I added debt with a purpose. However, my assets were greater than my liabilities. When my house was payed for, it increased my capacity to invest. When I had an equal amount of debt and income, my capacity to invest was nil.

As time goes by, my liabilities decreased while my assets increased. As assets increased, investment capacity increased. It is sound foundational principles.

The United States is increasing liabilities but the assets are not increasing. If it were a business, it would have filed for bankruptcy. The fact they are forced to raise the debt level is a sure sign they have poor fiscal management. If you were to make a poll, you would probably (IMO) find that the vast majority would agree that the management of the assets fail the test of proper management.

To suggest that it isn't a good thing to have compounding interest is to violate the reality that every successful person uses that principle.

When you bought a house your assets were greater than your liabilities? What do you mean by that? Did you have the case to but the house outright if you liquified all of your assets If so it sounds as if you started out with far more wealth than the average buyer. If the cost of your home and your assets including the value of your home were greater than your liabilities then you have the government's position on debt. Do you not think that their is great value within this country itself? You were only doing on a small scale what the government is doing on a large scale.

Also the value of your home grew while you earned money. You could have used that value to invest in more homes if you wanted to get into real estate. The US government is essentially investing in America continually. You would have the country live in almost poverty and there would be much less growth and at a much greater cost.


Debt can be worrisome. But it si a good thing. You should have a little more trust in the worth of the country that you live in

 

[Kenny]

When you bought a house your assets were greater than your liabilities? What do you mean by that? Did you have the case to but the house outright if you liquified all of your assets If so it sounds as if you started out with far more wealth than the average buyer. If the cost of your home and your assets including the value of your home were greater than your liabilities then you have the government's position on debt. Do you not think that their is great value within this country itself? You were only doing on a small scale what the government is doing on a large scale.

Also the value of your home grew while you earned money. You could have used that value to invest in more homes if you wanted to get into real estate. The US government is essentially investing in America continually. You would have the country live in almost poverty and there would be much less growth and at a much greater cost.


Debt can be worrisome. But it si a good thing. You should have a little more trust in the worth of the country that you live in

Let me give an example... it has been about 40 years so the numbers aren't exactly correct...

Cost of house and land 50K... down payment 7K.

Balance sheet -
Assets: $50,000
Liab. $43,000

Net worth $7,000

Increased available cash flow.

Rental $800.00 - before house
House payment $690.00 - Payment with insurance and taxes.
Cash flow did $110.00

Good investment.

Bad investment is if after buying a house you are living on your credit card. Continued use of credit card will eventually put you in a bankruptcy court unless you increase your cash flow...

Now... look at the US GDP to Debt from 16% to 129% starting in 1929. These last years:

US National Debt by Year Compared to GDP and Major Events

This is a recipe for disaster.

 

[Subduction Zone]

Let me give an example... it has been about 40 years so the numbers aren't exactly correct...

Cost of house and land 50K... down payment 7K.

Balance sheet -
Assets: $50,000
Liab. $43,000

Net worth $7,000

Increased available cash flow.

Rental $800.00 - before house
House payment $690.00 - Payment with insurance and taxes.
Cash flow did $110.00

Good investment.

Bad investment is if after buying a house you are living on your credit card. Continued use of credit card will eventually put you in a bankruptcy court unless you increase your cash flow...

Now... look at the US GDP to Debt from 16% to 129% starting in 1929. These last years:

View attachment 55738

US National Debt by Year Compared to GDP and Major Events

This is a recipe for disaster.

And one needs to know why those numbers are those numbers. Obama inherited a recession. I do not blame Bush any more than I blame the Democrats for that recession. That causes increased spending and debt. That is supposed to be temporary. But our current over spending arose during the Trump years when there was no excuse for it. And then it was made worse by Covid19. Trump cannot be blamed for Covid19, he can be blame for his spending habits before it and his at times rather poor handling of the crisis. We are still in the midst of that so complaining about unwarranted spending is still improper. I would like to see the spending go down quite a bit, and it should. A lot of extra spending went into our current crisis. And some of the Trump tax breaks need to be ended. As was to be expected he gave too many breaks to the rich.

I am all for fiscal responsibility but it will probably take both parties working together again. Sadly the Republicans are still having a hissy fit about losing.

 

[Kenny]

And one needs to know why those numbers are those numbers. Obama inherited a recession. I do not blame Bush any more than I blame the Democrats for that recession. That causes increased spending and debt. That is supposed to be temporary. But our current over spending arose during the Trump years when there was no excuse for it. And then it was made worse by Covid19. Trump cannot be blamed for Covid19, he can be blame for his spending habits before it and his at times rather poor handling of the crisis. We are still in the midst of that so complaining about unwarranted spending is still improper. I would like to see the spending go down quite a bit, and it should. A lot of extra spending went into our current crisis. And some of the Trump tax breaks need to be ended. As was to be expected he gave too many breaks to the rich.

I am all for fiscal responsibility but it will probably take both parties working together again. Sadly the Republicans are still having a hissy fit about losing.

I wasn't pointing to any singular party... both are to blame. Yes, emergencies are always on the horizon and, thus, we should have an emergency fund.

Regardless... the numbers don't lie. We are in a crisis. Even when we weren't in a crises, spending increase and our ratio increased to our detriment.

This is what will happen. Either we bite the bullet now or the bullet will bite us later. It will be hard now, it will be harder later.

 

[Subduction Zone]

I wasn't pointing to any singular party... both are to blame. Yes, emergencies are always on the horizon and, thus, we should have an emergency fund.

Regardless... the numbers don't lie. We are in a crisis. Even when we weren't in a crises, spending increase and our ratio increased to our detriment.

This is what will happen. Either we bite the bullet now or the bullet will bite us later. It will be hard now, it will be harder later.

I would not call it a crisis. It is a behavior that cannot continue and I do believe that I agreed to that from the start. As of right now there is no bullet to bite.

 

[Kenny]

I would not call it a crisis. It is a behavior that cannot continue and I do believe that I agreed to that from the start. As of right now there is no bullet to bite.

Plenty of room for a difference of viewpoints.