• Welcome to Religious Forums, a friendly forum to discuss all religions in a friendly surrounding.

    Your voice is missing! You will need to register to get access to the following site features:
    • Reply to discussions and create your own threads.
    • Our modern chat room. No add-ons or extensions required, just login and start chatting!
    • Access to private conversations with other members.

    We hope to see you as a part of our community soon!

"IF The Big Bang Is True Then How.....?"

TrueBeliever37

Well-Known Member
.

Posted without comment.



But feel free to offer yours. ;)

.

According to Eric Lerner, Chief Scientist at LPP Fusion. The Real Crisis in Cosmology is that The Big Bang Never Happened.

The underlying model of the BB theory is not valid. - Not scientifically validated. The theory has to be valid in terms of its predictions. Which it is not. See his youtube video if you dare. The Real Crisis in Cosmology - The Big Bang Never Happened

I would like to hear from you members of the Church of the Big Bang Theory.

Why are the BB theory's prophecies(predictions) off so badly?
1. Helium prediction off by a factor of 2
2. Lithium 20x lower than predicted by the BB theory.
3. Density of matter in the Universe about 100 Billion times off
4. No Proton decay found - Another failing grade for the Big Bang theory.
 
Last edited:

The Anointed

Well-Known Member
According to Eric Lerner, Chief Scientist at LPP Fusion. The Real Crisis in Cosmology is that The Big Bang Never Happened.

The underlying model of the BB theory is not valid. - Not scientifically validated. The theory has to be valid in terms of its predictions. Which it is not. See his youtube video if you dare. The Real Crisis in Cosmology - The Big Bang Never Happened

The supposed Big Bang started the Universe as a hot murky soup of extremely energetic photons, which are the quantum of electromagnetic energy that was spewed out in the trillions upon trillions of degrees. Those photons are generally regarded as discrete elementary particles and are also called wave particles, but they are not particles at all, having zero mass and no electric charge, and yet carrying angular and linear momentum.

As this infinitely hot energy spread out, it cooled. One would expect, that those wave particles which are the quantum of the liquid like electromagnetic energy, would have continued to expand further and further away from each other in the expansion of the universal building material. But with the angular momentum of those waves, they collided with each other in nuclear fusion in the creation of the first basic sub-atomic particles. As the universal temperature dropped to some billions of degrees, the dark energy which was the expansion’s acceleration force, began to form into dark matter, hydrogen and helium, with trace quantities of lithium, beryllium, and boron.

The Universe stayed dark, without any luminous sources, until gravity, condensed the mainly hydrogen, with helium, and the trace quantities of lithium, beryllium, and boron, into the first stars. All stars, including these first- generation stars, act as chemical factories, synthesizing almost all of the elements that make up the world around us.

And God said, “Let there be light.” Which was not the light from the sun of this minor solar system within our Milky Way galaxy, which solar system would not be created for some nine billion years after the creation of those first massive stars that lit up the darkness of the bottomless pit, in which massive nuclear reactors the heavier elements were created.

When the original stars exploded as supernovae, and collapsed into a black hole, they spewed out much of the elements that those massive nuclear reactors had created, seeding the surrounding galactic gas cloud.

Subsequent generations of stars that formed in the surrounding Gas cloud, which were created from those elements, incorporated the elements that were created within them, and steadily increased the chemical abundances of their surroundings, which was the evolving Galaxy, that was anchored in space by the central Black Hole, around which, THE GALACTIC NEBULA had begun to revolve.

In 1935, Einstein and physicist Nathan Rosen used the theory of general relativity to elaborate on the idea of black holes and worm holes, proposing the existence of "bridges" through space-time. These bridges connect two different points in space-time, theoretically creating a shortcut that could reduce travel time and distance; Billions of light years to mere kilo-metres.

According to general relativity, the gravitational collapse of a sufficiently compact mass forms a singular Schwarzschild black hole. In the Einstein–Cartan–Sciama–Kibble theory of gravity, however, it forms a regular Einstein–Rosen bridge.

The gravitational collapse of a single star such as the minor star of our solar system, can only form a White Dwarf, Our sun will eventually burn up all its lighter elements and move on to the heavier material and blow out as a Red Giant, when this happens, it will expand outward and get so large that the orbit of the earth will actually be inside the sun, and the earth’s crust will be melted into an ocean of lava.

Eventually, there will be nothing there to burn and all that will be left of our sun will be a compact White dwarf of carbon and oxygen about the size of today’s earth, and a thimble full of material from the White Dwarf would weigh anything up to a ton.

A neutron star is what is left over when a very heavy star explodes. This explosion is called a Supernova, the gravitational collapse of those bigger stars, create a fast spinning body no bigger than the earth, which is so dense that even a thimble full of their material, would weigh anything up to about 100 million tons.

Atoms have a certain weight, but the weight is almost all in the nucleus. The nucleus inside an atom is so small that if you made a model of an atom that was the size of a large house, the nucleus would still only be the size of a grain of salt. An atom, apart from its nucleus, is almost all space.

In a neutron star, all of the atoms have been crushed together so tightly by the force of gravity that their nuclei are touching. If you can imagine the amount of space needed for a billion large houses to occupy, then reduce that to the space needed to house a billion grains of salt, which still weigh almost the same as the billion houses, then you have some idea as to what a neutron star is. But unlike a Black Hole neutron stars, which are also called 'Pulsars' do radiate beams of energy.

As previously stated, according to general relativity, the gravitational collapse of a sufficiently compact mass forms a regular Schwarzschild black hole, which is a non-rotating black hole as opposed to a rotating Kerr black hole. Nothing can escape from a black hole, not even light, the mass within a black hole warps the fabric of space, as the internal mass increases by the objects falling into and being devoured by that gravitational anomaly, it begins to form a funnel like tunnel in space.

Any object going into a black hole would be ripped apart by the intense gravitational force inside the black hole and reconverted to the photons from which it was originally created.

In 1963, New Zealand mathematician Roy Kerr, calculated an exact solution for Einstein’s field equations representing a Kerr black hole. The special feature of a Kerr black hole is that it rotates. So far as scientists know, all objects in the universe rotate, including stars, so when the star collapses into a black hole, it’s likely that it too will rotate.

In Kerr’s solution, it’s actually possible for the electromagnetic energy from which this universe and all herein was created, the quantum of that energy, being photons, to travel through the rotating black hole and could come out of the white hole at the other side.

A worm Hole could theoretically be used as a method of sending information or travelers through space, unfortunately, physical matter which includes humans journeying through the space tunnels would appear to be an impossibility as there are strong indications that material objects travelling through a worm hole is forbidden by the law of physics.

But now that it has been discovered that Physical matter is but an illusion, and all is, but the eternal energy, perhaps one day new technology may develop a way to teleport bodies of energy along light beams and reconstruct them to their original form, with no damage done: ‘Beam me up Scotty?’ (The great rapture.)

Wormholes may not only connect two separate regions within the universe, they could also connect two different universes.
 
Last edited:

TrueBeliever37

Well-Known Member
The supposed Big Bang started the Universe as a hot murky soup of extremely energetic photons, which are the quantum of electromagnetic energy that was spewed out in the trillions upon trillions of degrees. Those photons are generally regarded as discrete elementary particles and are also called wave particles, but they are not particles at all, having zero mass and no electric charge, and yet carrying angular and linear momentum.

As this infinitely hot energy spread out, it cooled. One would expect, that those wave particles which are the quantum of the liquid like electromagnetic energy, would have continued to expand further and further away from each other in the expansion of the universal building material. But with the angular momentum of those waves, they collided with each other in nuclear fusion in the creation of the first basic sub-atomic particles. As the universal temperature dropped to some billions of degrees, the dark energy which was the expansion’s acceleration force, began to form into dark matter, hydrogen and helium, with trace quantities of lithium, beryllium, and boron.

The Universe stayed dark, without any luminous sources, until gravity, condensed the mainly hydrogen, with helium, and the trace quantities of lithium, beryllium, and boron, into the first stars. All stars, including these first- generation stars, act as chemical factories, synthesizing almost all of the elements that make up the world around us.

And God said, “Let there be light.” Which was not the light from the sun of this minor solar system within our Milky Way galaxy, which solar system would not be created for some nine billion years after the creation of those first massive stars that lit up the darkness of the bottomless pit, in which massive nuclear reactors the heavier elements were created.

When the original stars exploded as supernovae, and collapsed into a black hole, they spewed out much of the elements that those massive nuclear reactors had created, seeding the surrounding galactic gas cloud.

Subsequent generations of stars that formed in the surrounding Gas cloud, which were created from those elements, incorporated the elements that were created within them, and steadily increased the chemical abundances of their surroundings, which was the evolving Galaxy, that was anchored in space by the central Black Hole, around which, THE GALACTIC NEBULA had begun to revolve.

In 1935, Einstein and physicist Nathan Rosen used the theory of general relativity to elaborate on the idea of black holes and worm holes, proposing the existence of "bridges" through space-time. These bridges connect two different points in space-time, theoretically creating a shortcut that could reduce travel time and distance; Billions of light years to mere kilo-metres.

According to general relativity, the gravitational collapse of a sufficiently compact mass forms a singular Schwarzschild black hole. In the Einstein–Cartan–Sciama–Kibble theory of gravity, however, it forms a regular Einstein–Rosen bridge.

The gravitational collapse of a single star such as the minor star of our solar system, can only form a White Dwarf, Our sun will eventually burn up all its lighter elements and move on to the heavier material and blow out as a Red Giant, when this happens, it will expand outward and get so large that the orbit of the earth will actually be inside the sun, and the earth’s crust will be melted into an ocean of lava.

Eventually, there will be nothing there to burn and all that will be left of our sun will be a compact White dwarf of carbon and oxygen about the size of today’s earth, and a thimble full of material from the White Dwarf would weigh anything up to a ton.

A neutron star is what is left over when a very heavy star explodes. This explosion is called a Supernova, the gravitational collapse of those bigger stars, create a fast spinning body no bigger than the earth, which is so dense that even a thimble full of their material, would weigh anything up to about 100 million tons.

Atoms have a certain weight, but the weight is almost all in the nucleus. The nucleus inside an atom is so small that if you made a model of an atom that was the size of a large house, the nucleus would still only be the size of a grain of salt. An atom, apart from its nucleus, is almost all space.

In a neutron star, all of the atoms have been crushed together so tightly by the force of gravity that their nuclei are touching. If you can imagine the amount of space needed for a billion large houses to occupy, then reduce that to the space needed to house a billion grains of salt, which still weigh almost the same as the billion houses, then you have some idea as to what a neutron star is. But unlike a Black Hole neutron stars do radiate beams of energy.

As previously stated, according to general relativity, the gravitational collapse of a sufficiently compact mass forms a regular Schwarzschild black hole, which is a non-rotating black hole as opposed to a rotating Kerr black hole. Nothing can escape from a black hole, not even light, the mass within a black hole warps the fabric of space, as the internal mass increases by the objects falling into and being devoured by that gravitational anomaly, it begins to form a funnel like tunnel in space.

Any object going into a black hole would be ripped apart by the intense gravitational force inside the black hole and reconverted to the photons from which it was originally created.

In 1963, New Zealand mathematician Roy Kerr, calculated an exact solution for Einstein’s field equations representing a Kerr black hole. The special feature of a Kerr black hole is that it rotates. So far as scientists know, all objects in the universe rotate, including stars, so when the star collapses into a black hole, it’s likely that it too will rotate.

In Kerr’s solution, it’s actually possible for the electromagnetic energy from which this universe and all herein was created, the quantum of that energy, being photons, to travel through the rotating black hole and could come out of the white hole at the other side.

A worm Hole could theoretically be used as a method of sending information or travelers through space, unfortunately, physical matter which includes humans journeying through the space tunnels would appear to be an impossibility as there are strong indications that material objects travelling through a worm hole is forbidden by the law of physics.

But now that it has been discovered that Physical matter is but an illusion, and all is, but the eternal energy, perhaps one day new technology may develop a way to teleport bodies of energy along light beams and reconstruct them to their original form, with no damage done: ‘Beam me up Scotty?’ (The great rapture.)

Wormholes may not only connect two separate regions within the universe, they could also connect two different universes.

So did you watch the video to see all the problems with the Big Bang Theory?
 

The Anointed

Well-Known Member
So did you watch the video to see all the problems with the Big Bang Theory?

My friend, I do not believe the Big Bang theory as it stands today. I do not believe that there ever was an infinitely dense, Infinitely hot, Infinitesimally, small singularity, that was spatially separated, releasing the electromagnetic energy which has become our supposedly physical universe.

And I am flat out finding the time to even respond to certain posts, let alone time to watch every video that people want me to waste my time viewing.

If you have something that you believe is important for me to know, then tell me in your own words/
 

TrueBeliever37

Well-Known Member
My friend, I do not believe the Big Bang theory as it stands today. I do not believe that there ever was an infinitely dense, Infinitely hot, Infinitesimally, small singularity, that was spatially separated, releasing the electromagnetic energy which has become our supposedly physical universe.

And I am flat out finding the time to even respond to certain posts, let alone time to watch every video that people want me to waste my time viewing.

If you have something that you believe is important for me to know, then tell me in your own words/

Sounds like maybe we are in some agreement. The Big Bang Theory is a farce.
 

Polymath257

Think & Care
Staff member
Premium Member
According to Eric Lerner, Chief Scientist at LPP Fusion. The Real Crisis in Cosmology is that The Big Bang Never Happened.

The underlying model of the BB theory is not valid. - Not scientifically validated. The theory has to be valid in terms of its predictions. Which it is not. See his youtube video if you dare. The Real Crisis in Cosmology - The Big Bang Never Happened

I would like to hear from you members of the Church of the Big Bang Theory.

Why are the BB theory's prophecies(predictions) off so badly?
1. Helium prediction off by a factor of 2
2. Lithium 20x lower than predicted by the BB theory.
3. Density of matter in the Universe about 100 Billion times off
4. No Proton decay found - Another failing grade for the Big Bang theory.

A criticism of Lermer's previous book:

Errors in the "The Big Bang Never Happened"

A more recent overview of the standard model:
http://pdg.lbl.gov/2020/reviews/rpp2020-rev-bbang-cosmology.pdf

"The resulting D/H abundance is in excellent agreement with that found in quasar absorption systems. It is in reasonable agreement with the helium abundanceobserved in extragalactic HII regions (once systematic uncertainties are accounted for), but is in poor agreement with the Li abundance observed in the atmospheres of halo dwarf stars [64]. Seethe review on BBN – Sec. 24 of thisReviewfor a detailed discussion of BBN or references [65–68]."

A much more detailed treatment is:
http://pdg.lbl.gov/2020/reviews/rpp2020-rev-bbang-nucleosynthesis.pdf

His description of the matter abundance is simply wrong. In particular, we do know of asymmetries between matter and anti-matter and are, in fact, quite common and understood.

And proton decay is not relevant to the BB model.
 

The Anointed

Well-Known Member
Sounds like maybe we are in some agreement. The Big Bang Theory is a farce.

Maybe we are in some agreement, if you change the singularity to a white hole at the end of a Super Hyper Black Hole into which the previous universe fell and was ripped apart and reconverted to the electromagnetic energy from which it was created and accelerated along the Einstein Rosen bridge (Worm Hole) to speeds far, far in excess to the speed of light and spewed out of the white hole in the trillions upon trillions of degrees.

So let me here repeat.

In 1935, Einstein and physicist Nathan Rosen used the theory of general relativity to elaborate on the idea of black holes and worm holes, proposing the existence of "bridges" through space-time.

These bridges connect two different points in space-time, theoretically creating a shortcut that could reduce travel time and distance; Billions of light years to mere Kilo-metres.

According to general relativity, the gravitational collapse of a sufficiently compact mass forms a singular Schwarzschild black hole. In the Einstein–Cartan–Sciama–Kibble theory of gravity, however, it forms a regular Einstein–Rosen bridge.

The gravitational collapse of a single star such as the minor star of our solar system, can only form a White Dwarf, Our sun will eventually burn up all its lighter elements and move on to the heavier material and blow out as a Red Giant, when this happens, it will expand outward and get so large that the orbit of the earth will actually be inside the sun, and the earth’s crust will be melted into an ocean of lava.

Eventually, there will be nothing there to burn and all that will be left of our sun will be a compact White dwarf of carbon and oxygen about the size of today’s earth, and a thimble full of material from the White Dwarf would weigh anything up to a ton.

A neutron star is what is left over when a very heavy star explodes. This explosion is called a Supernova, the gravitational collapse of those bigger stars, create a fast spinning body no bigger than the earth, which is so dense that even a thimble full of their material, would weigh anything up to about 100 million tons.

Atoms have a certain weight, but the weight is almost all in the nucleus. The nucleus inside an atom is so small that if you made a model of an atom that was the size of a large house, the nucleus would still only be the size of a grain of salt. An atom, apart from its nucleus, is almost all space.

In a neutron star, all of the atoms have been crushed together so tightly by the force of gravity that their nuclei are touching. If you can imagine the amount of space needed for a billion large houses to occupy, then reduce that to the space needed to house a billion grains of salt, which still weigh almost the same as the billion houses, then you have some idea as to what a neutron star is. But unlike a Black Hole neutron stars do radiate beams of energy.

As previously stated, according to general relativity, the gravitational collapse of a sufficiently compact mass forms a regular Schwarzschild black hole, which is a non-rotating black hole as opposed to a rotating Kerr black hole. Nothing can escape from a black hole, not even light, the mass within a black hole warps the fabric of space, as the internal mass increases by the objects falling into and being devoured by that gravitational anomaly, it begins to form a funnel like tunnel in space.

Any object going into a black hole would be ripped apart by the intense gravitational force inside the black hole and reconverted to the photons from which it was originally created.

In 1963, New Zealand mathematician Roy Kerr, calculated an exact solution for Einstein’s field equations representing a Kerr black hole. The special feature of a Kerr black hole is that it rotates. So far as scientists know, all objects in the universe rotate, including stars, so when the star collapses into a black hole, it’s likely that it too will rotate.

In Kerr’s solution, it’s actually possible for the electromagnetic energy from which this universe and all herein was created, the quantum of that energy, being photons, to travel through the rotating black hole and could come out of the white hole at the other side.

A worm Hole could theoretically be used as a method of sending information or travelers through space, unfortunately, physical matter which includes humans journeying through the space tunnels would appear to be an impossibility as there are strong indications that material objects travelling through a worm hole is forbidden by the law of physics.

But now that it has been discovered that Physical matter is but an illusion, and all is, but the eternal energy, perhaps one day new technology may develop a way to teleport bodies of energy along light beams and reconstruct them to their original form, with no damage done: ‘Beam me up Scotty?’ (The great rapture.)

Wormholes may not only connect two separate regions within the universe, they could also connect two different universes.
 
Last edited:

TrueBeliever37

Well-Known Member
A criticism of Lermer's previous book:

Errors in the "The Big Bang Never Happened"

A more recent overview of the standard model:
http://pdg.lbl.gov/2020/reviews/rpp2020-rev-bbang-cosmology.pdf

"The resulting D/H abundance is in excellent agreement with that found in quasar absorption systems. It is in reasonable agreement with the helium abundanceobserved in extragalactic HII regions (once systematic uncertainties are accounted for), but is in poor agreement with the Li abundance observed in the atmospheres of halo dwarf stars [64]. Seethe review on BBN – Sec. 24 of thisReviewfor a detailed discussion of BBN or references [65–68]."

A much more detailed treatment is:
http://pdg.lbl.gov/2020/reviews/rpp2020-rev-bbang-nucleosynthesis.pdf

His description of the matter abundance is simply wrong. In particular, we do know of asymmetries between matter and anti-matter and are, in fact, quite common and understood.

And proton decay is not relevant to the BB model.


Did you watch his video? Proton decay was a prediction related to BB theory.
 

TrueBeliever37

Well-Known Member
Not even close. The farce is the plasma theorists that ignore vast stretches of data.


The scientists have thrown out data that didn't move them in the direction they wanted. They have not been totally honest with us. I believe the BB theory to be a farse based on what I have seen so far. But I will try to check out some of the links you have included.
 

Polymath257

Think & Care
Staff member
Premium Member
Did you watch his video? Proton decay was a prediction related to BB theory.

No, it was not. Is it predicted from some versions of the standard model of particle physics, but it is NOT a prediction of the BB. I'm not even sure why the guy in the video claims that.
 

TrueBeliever37

Well-Known Member
No, it was not. Is it predicted from some versions of the standard model of particle physics, but it is NOT a prediction of the BB. I'm not even sure why the guy in the video claims that.

Ok, well what about the other predictions regarding Lithium and Helium that were so far off?
 

TrueBeliever37

Well-Known Member
Maybe we are in some agreement, if you change the singularity to a white hole at the end of a Super Hyper Black Hole into which the previous universe fell and was ripped apart and reconverted to the electromagnetic energy from which it was created and accelerated along the Einstein Rosen bridge (Worm Hole) to speeds far, far in excess to the speed of light and spewed out of the white hole in the trillions upon trillions of degrees.

So let me here repeat.

In 1935, Einstein and physicist Nathan Rosen used the theory of general relativity to elaborate on the idea of black holes and worm holes, proposing the existence of "bridges" through space-time.

These bridges connect two different points in space-time, theoretically creating a shortcut that could reduce travel time and distance; Billions of light years to mere Kilo-metres.

According to general relativity, the gravitational collapse of a sufficiently compact mass forms a singular Schwarzschild black hole. In the Einstein–Cartan–Sciama–Kibble theory of gravity, however, it forms a regular Einstein–Rosen bridge.

The gravitational collapse of a single star such as the minor star of our solar system, can only form a White Dwarf, Our sun will eventually burn up all its lighter elements and move on to the heavier material and blow out as a Red Giant, when this happens, it will expand outward and get so large that the orbit of the earth will actually be inside the sun, and the earth’s crust will be melted into an ocean of lava.

Eventually, there will be nothing there to burn and all that will be left of our sun will be a compact White dwarf of carbon and oxygen about the size of today’s earth, and a thimble full of material from the White Dwarf would weigh anything up to a ton.

A neutron star is what is left over when a very heavy star explodes. This explosion is called a Supernova, the gravitational collapse of those bigger stars, create a fast spinning body no bigger than the earth, which is so dense that even a thimble full of their material, would weigh anything up to about 100 million tons.

Atoms have a certain weight, but the weight is almost all in the nucleus. The nucleus inside an atom is so small that if you made a model of an atom that was the size of a large house, the nucleus would still only be the size of a grain of salt. An atom, apart from its nucleus, is almost all space.

In a neutron star, all of the atoms have been crushed together so tightly by the force of gravity that their nuclei are touching. If you can imagine the amount of space needed for a billion large houses to occupy, then reduce that to the space needed to house a billion grains of salt, which still weigh almost the same as the billion houses, then you have some idea as to what a neutron star is. But unlike a Black Hole neutron stars do radiate beams of energy.

As previously stated, according to general relativity, the gravitational collapse of a sufficiently compact mass forms a regular Schwarzschild black hole, which is a non-rotating black hole as opposed to a rotating Kerr black hole. Nothing can escape from a black hole, not even light, the mass within a black hole warps the fabric of space, as the internal mass increases by the objects falling into and being devoured by that gravitational anomaly, it begins to form a funnel like tunnel in space.

Any object going into a black hole would be ripped apart by the intense gravitational force inside the black hole and reconverted to the photons from which it was originally created.

In 1963, New Zealand mathematician Roy Kerr, calculated an exact solution for Einstein’s field equations representing a Kerr black hole. The special feature of a Kerr black hole is that it rotates. So far as scientists know, all objects in the universe rotate, including stars, so when the star collapses into a black hole, it’s likely that it too will rotate.

In Kerr’s solution, it’s actually possible for the electromagnetic energy from which this universe and all herein was created, the quantum of that energy, being photons, to travel through the rotating black hole and could come out of the white hole at the other side.

A worm Hole could theoretically be used as a method of sending information or travelers through space, unfortunately, physical matter which includes humans journeying through the space tunnels would appear to be an impossibility as there are strong indications that material objects travelling through a worm hole is forbidden by the law of physics.

But now that it has been discovered that Physical matter is but an illusion, and all is, but the eternal energy, perhaps one day new technology may develop a way to teleport bodies of energy along light beams and reconstruct them to their original form, with no damage done: ‘Beam me up Scotty?’ (The great rapture.)

Wormholes may not only connect two separate regions within the universe, they could also connect two different universes.

Massive amounts of speculation and imagination involved here. So many complain about religion requiring faith, but look at what all you are asked to believe that can't be proven with this.
 

Polymath257

Think & Care
Staff member
Premium Member
Ok, well what about the other predictions regarding Lithium and Helium that were so far off?

helium isn't very far off. It is well within the error bars considering how it is made inside of stars. Lithium is more of an issue, the measurement of its abundances in the early universe also has huge error bars.
 

TrueBeliever37

Well-Known Member
helium isn't very far off. It is well within the error bars considering how it is made inside of stars. Lithium is more of an issue, the measurement of its abundances in the early universe also has huge error bars.

But the point is, the amount of Lithium predicted was based upon the Big Bang theory. The BB theory's prediction for lithium is so far off, the BB has to be a bogus theory. That was an underlying basis for the Big Bang theory.
 

Polymath257

Think & Care
Staff member
Premium Member
But the point is, the amount of Lithium predicted was based upon the Big Bang theory. The BB theory's prediction for lithium is so far off, the BB has to be a bogus theory. That was an underlying basis for the Big Bang theory.

No, that isn't correct *if* there are other sources and sinks of lithium (which there are). The amount that existed after nucleosynthesis isn't the same as what we see now because of production in stars, for example.
 

TrueBeliever37

Well-Known Member
No, that isn't correct *if* there are other sources and sinks of lithium (which there are). The amount that existed after nucleosynthesis isn't the same as what we see now because of production in stars, for example.

So you don't have a problem with the following?

They come up with the doctrine of the Big Bang Theory, and based on the theory predict that there should be certain amounts, or proportions of these 3 elements (Lithium, etc) in the Universe.

Then they supposedly found a way to measure one of the elements. Then proceed to Calculate the other 2 elements - based on the quantity of the element they have measured, and the predictions of the 3 elements based on the BB Theory. And when they have data that doesn't seem to back up their theory, they ignore or discard it. Then they foist the results off on the unwitting public as facts.

And then later when they find a better way to measure the first element they previously measured, it is found that the measured quantities aren't even close to being the same as the previously measured quantities.

But yet just carry on as if everything is good.
 

Polymath257

Think & Care
Staff member
Premium Member
So you don't have a problem with the following?

They come up with the doctrine of the Big Bang Theory, and based on the theory predict that there should be certain amounts, or proportions of these 3 elements (Lithium, etc) in the Universe.

Then they supposedly found a way to measure one of the elements. Then proceed to Calculate the other 2 elements - based on the quantity of the element they have measured, and the predictions of the 3 elements based on the BB Theory. And when they have data that doesn't seem to back up their theory, they ignore or discard it. Then they foist the results off on the unwitting public as facts.

And then later when they find a better way to measure the first element they previously measured, it is found that the measured quantities aren't even close to being the same as the previously measured quantities.

But yet just carry on as if everything is good.

Well, one of the BIG issues is that the decay time of the neutron is a significant factor in these predictions. And the measured value for that decay time has changed a LOT in the last 50 years (the reason is another interesting matter). So the value used for this parameter in the original calculations was WRONG. This affects the predictions, as I am sure you can understand.

There are also uncertainties in the reaction cross-sections for some of the nuclear reactions involved in this. Once again, the original values and the modern values don't exactly match up (we have better estimates now) and that affected the values in the original calculations.

This invalidated the original predictions simply because the information fed into them was wrong.

The next BIG problem is making the observations of original abundances. One problem is that stars use deuterium and helium in their nuclear reactions, which thereby changes the amounts from their original values.

This means that we have to look in regions that are 'metal poor', which essentially means that there hasn't been a lot of change in those values because the stars haven't done that job yet. But these sources are also farther away, which means that 'contamination' of the light can happen in traveling to us. Getting a handle on this is very tricky and dependent on theory as well.

In particular, deuterium is destroyed in stars, so the observed abundances are *lower* bounds for the original amounts that are predicted by the BB theory. Even today, the number of observations from the metal poor regions is very low.

In spite of this, the D/H ratio is one of the better known values in this study.

The He4/H ratio is tricky because of the processing in stars (which increases the amount of He4), but the abundances seen are in very good agreement with the D/H values and the modern values for the parameters of the theory (decay rates, reaction cross sections, etc).

He3 is very problematic. We have very few observations and none are from the metal poor regions that are required. For closer stars, the *stellar* nucleosynthesis models don't seem to agree with observations, showing that we don't understand how He3 is being processed.

Li7 is the hardest one. Again, the observations give a lower bound. But we don't really understand the details of how it is processed in stars (there is a plateau that is not understood), so the data itself is problematic.

TL;DR: the original predictions used faulty values for many parameters and the observations of original abundances are trickier than was originally supposed. Getting precise values for the original abundances of Li7 and He3 has not been accomplished. For D and He4, the values are in agreement with the BB theory when the correct parameters are used.
 

Polymath257

Think & Care
Staff member
Premium Member
The upshot is that we can measure H, D, and He4 values and the results are in good agreement with the BB model.

Furthermore, the value of the baryon density obtained from curve fitting to the measured values is something we can also measure in other ways. In particular, there are peaks in the background radiation spectrum that are directly associated with the baryon density. And the value from H,D, He4 abundances and the value from the background radiation are in good agreement.

Given that He3 has not been accurately measured, the real problem is Li7. And that *is* an issue we do not understand.

However, the success of the BB model in other ways says that the lithium problem is NOT likely to be resolved by throwing out the BB, but rather by some new physics (which is quite exciting).
 

gnostic

The Lost One
In one form of superstring theory describing the universe as a calabai yu form with 11 dimensions with 7 of them folded up time was one of the dimensions unfolded. Could it have been folded pre big bang? And some other dimension was unfolded, if in fact 4 dimensions is even a requirement?
That’s M-theory. 11 dimensions for m-theory’s alternate reality.

From what I hear, the string cosmology is advocating 26 dimensions.
 
Top