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Featured If the Bible was first discovered in the Qumran caves near the Dead Sea...

Discussion in 'Religious Debates' started by Nowhere Man, Mar 3, 2019.

  1. BilliardsBall

    BilliardsBall Well-Known Member

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    Why did Paul say that--there is more to the story than "eat whatever", and this from a Pharisee who ate according to the then-kosher laws.

    The rest, again, is you specifying prophecy fulfillment that is not possible--since the NT scriptures are still scriptures:

    How was Paul "gathered out"? Don't 99.999% of us read Paul, even secular commentators?

    Did the age end, since Jesus said He would return at its end?

    The sun shines daily, and worship is not for Sunday OR Saturday only...
     
  2. BilliardsBall

    BilliardsBall Well-Known Member

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    I was the tour photographer several weeks ago in Israel, when we read Matthew 5-7 aloud just outside the CHURCH OF THE BEATITUDES. Please don't say silly things!

    Let's rather say this--you feel strongly that Jesus is giving proscriptive WORKS here, WORKS by which I MIGHT be saved, if I DO THEM. Do you want several hundred other verses on salvation APART from works?
     
  3. Nowhere Man

    Nowhere Man Bompu Zen Man with a little bit of Bushido.

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    You make a very valid point. Determining which one is older would make a very good topic. It seems the history gets very murky at this point.
     
  4. 2ndpillar

    2ndpillar Well-Known Member

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    Constantine, the instituter of your mother Roman church, instituted the day of rest, in the year 321 AD, to be on the day of the sun, in order to try and change the times and the law, as dictated in Daniel 7:24-25, by the "another king/beast", which would be the 7th head of the beast of Revelation 17:10. 2/3 of the NT is Paul and his associates, which would make the NT a majority of tare seed, and the leader of the "many" of Matthew 7:13. The tares are to be gathered out first (Matthew 13:30), but when harvest time arrives, the tares are not protected. That means anyone can do what that may with them, for they are the foundation of sand, and require a bit of little wind, rain, and flooding to take down their house (Matthew 7:24-27). The "end of the age" as determined by Daniel 12:10-13, is when "they finish shattering the power of the holy people", which was finished when "Jerusalem", and "Judah", were "restored" in 1967, when those with insight will understand, but the "wicked"/lawless, will not. Those that think they are wise and intelligent, will not understanding (Matthew 11:25). The fact that the unholy Roman church determined that your NT canon was holy, should have thrown up red flags. You can read Paul all you want, and eat things sacrificed to demons, but don't think someone is going to come and give you a gold star for it, and then say Paul is simply conveying the message given to him by James, for he is not. If you read Matthew 24:29, it is "immediately after the tribulation of those days" that "the son of man will appear". No life would have survived the great tribulation unless it had been cut short (Matthew 24:22).
     
  5. 2ndpillar

    2ndpillar Well-Known Member

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    History is written by the victors. That would be the Romans of the time, and their Roman church, instituted by the Roman emperor Constantine in 325 AD , and officialized by the Roman emperor Theodosius in 380 AD.. The rest are mostly dead bodies in their wake.
     
  6. 2ndpillar

    2ndpillar Well-Known Member

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    The problem is that you must twist or undermine the whole of the testimony of Yeshua to make your point, or as 99% of your verses will be from the false prophet Paul, I will have to deduct points. Now listing several hundred quotes from Yeshua, which actually support your point, might be a good start, and then go on to explain what you are saved from. And then explain the "kingdom of heaven at hand, and what one must do to enter. Please give chapter and verse, and know you will be graded after you hand in your homework.
     
  7. Terrywoodenpic

    Terrywoodenpic Oldest Heretic

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    Then it is strange that they continue to exist and are going strong.
     
  8. 2ndpillar

    2ndpillar Well-Known Member

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    "Going strong", relative to what? Relatively strong in numbers compared to approximately 1.2 billion Roman Catholics, or 800,000 million Protestants? Hurrah for them for keeping their identity, but they survived because they didn't wake the lion.
     
  9. Terrywoodenpic

    Terrywoodenpic Oldest Heretic

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    There are an awful lot of Orthodox Christians in the world.
     
  10. 2ndpillar

    2ndpillar Well-Known Member

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    Yes, there are plenty of "Orthodox Christians" but they basically have they have the same canon, and are pretty much a mirror image of the Roman church, and numbered among Catholics. List of Christian denominations by number of members - Wikipedia

    Should they have gone the way of Marcion, or Luther, they would have been excommunicated. Luther's translated bible excluded James, Revelation, Jude and Hebrews. The Orthodox push the limits, but not to the breaking point. Although on this forum, I seem to hear echos of Marcion, but seemingly from Protestants. I think the Protestants are the losers for excluding Maccabees and the others. Removing them from the apocryphal, is their loss. It is all kind of moot, for 2/3 of the NT is the tare seed, founded on the false prophet Paul's false gospel of grace. Without Maccabees, it seems some structure is lost, if just from a historical perspective.

    Why does the Orthodox Bible have more books than the Catholic Bible?
    the Carthaginian Biblical canon, which is thus TECHNICALLY binding on the modern Eastern Orthodox Church. :) Yet, in terms of practice, the Antiochian (and thus Byzantine) parts of the Eastern Orthodox Church continued to use pre-Carthaginian books in their local canons
     
  11. metis

    metis aged ecumenical anthropologist

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    I'm not at all being "silly" as the Sermon On the Mount contains myriads of "works" prescribed by Jesus. On top of that, it's not "works" by themselves that saves but "works" along with "belief".

    What you are conflating is what Paul refers to as "works under the [Jewish] Law", which he says won't save. OTOH, "works" under Jesus' teachings clearly are to be done, and the Sermon contains the single longest list of them.

    BTW, I was at that church as well.
     
  12. 2ndpillar

    2ndpillar Well-Known Member

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    And yet, Elijah, John the Baptist, was to come to restore the hearts of the children to their fathers, "remember the law of Moses My servant, even the statutes and ordinance which I commanded him in Horeb for all Israel. (Malachi 4:4-6). The sermon on the mount, simply states one must be more righteous than the Pharisees, even if means tearing out your right eye (Matthew 5:29) to do so. It does not negate the Law, it simply requires more. When king David rules on "the land I gave to Jacob", Israel will be given a new hear and spirit, and keep the statutes and ordinances (Ezekiel 36:26-28) & (Ezekiel 37:24-25).

    Malachi 4:4-6 "Remember the law of my servant Moses, the decrees and laws I gave him at Horeb for all Israel. 5"See, I will send the prophet Elijah to you before that great and dreadful day of the LORD comes. 6He will turn the hearts of the parents to their children, and the hearts of the children to their parents; or else I will come and strike the land with total destruction."
     
  13. metis

    metis aged ecumenical anthropologist

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    It says a LOT more than that.

    The 613 Laws were and are only for Jews, not Gentiles, and the latter became gradually more dominant during the latter part of the 1st century by all indications.
     
  14. BilliardsBall

    BilliardsBall Well-Known Member

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    My "mother Roman church..."?

    I'm a JEWISH CHRISTIAN. I can NEVER be Roman. NEVER. This besides the fact that Rome's (awful, heretical) doctrine would be obliterated if they actually listened to Paul!

    You are consistently quoting prophecies out of context. Suggest you review articles online detailing the errors of current anti-Pauline "scholarship".
     
  15. BilliardsBall

    BilliardsBall Well-Known Member

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    Why are you speaking to me rudely, not as a brother? ("know you will be graded after you hand in your homework")

    I don't "owe you" homework, there are millions of saved people in America alone, and 99.99% of them read the New Testament, not four books of it only.

    Yeshua saves us from perishing (John 3:16) via trust in Yeshua, not law-keeping (John 3:16).
     
  16. BilliardsBall

    BilliardsBall Well-Known Member

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    Do you have a Bible verse that works, not trust, are salvific? A clear verse, since I have several hundred I'd be happy to present, starting with John 3:16, "Whoever TRUSTS shall NEVER PERISH"?

    My comment regarding attendance at the Church of the Beatitudes was in response to your (misplaced) comment that "I never heard of the Beatitudes". The Beatitudes show we CANNOT be saved by works (be PERFECT as God, EXCEED Pharisees) not "here are works that save you when added to belief".
     
  17. 2ndpillar

    2ndpillar Well-Known Member

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    You make unverifiable claims, and yell ouch when called on it. And I certainly do not consider you a "brother". Your "brother" would be the false prophet Paul, or the "worthless shepherd", Peter (Zechariah 11:16-17), who will be dealt with in Matthew 13:39-42. As for "millions" of "saved people in America alone", you have still not defined what they are "saved" from. As for the reading the NT, well, as the NT is around 67% derived from the false prophet Paul and his associates, and is a mix of the tare seed, Paul's message of lawlessness, and the "good seed", the "word of the kingdom", I would think that the "many" (Matthew 7:13), who following the path of lawlessness (Matthew 7:23 & Matthew 13:41), are in for a rude awakening (Matthew 13:39-42). As for being graded on your homework, everyone is graded on what they say, for justification or condemnation. As for you and your "saved" "brothers", they deem the "unsaved" to hell, a judgment which will bite them on the tail. (Matthew 7:2)

    As for John 3:16, it would be addressing those who believe in him, the him being the "Word" made flesh, that would be those who believe in the Word, not those who nail the Word to the cross.
     
  18. 2ndpillar

    2ndpillar Well-Known Member

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    The "mother Roman Catholic church" (universal Christian church), is a "harlot" daughter of Babylon, and the mother of the "harlot" Protestant churches (Revelation 17:5), and the Jews are referred to as the "harlot" in Revelation 17:16, another harlot daughter of Babylon. Your "Christian" church, built on the teachings of Peter and Paul, the two horns like a lamb, was instituted by the Roman Emperor Constantine, the beast with two horns like a lamb (Revelation 13:11), in the year 325 AD. Your "leader", and "teacher", Paul claimed to be both a "Roman", a Gentile, and a Jew. Feel free to point out any "errors" I have presented. As for your "out of context", the Law and the prophets point to the "in that day", the day of the LORD, and what was will be again.(Ecclesiastes 1:9) And Matthew 27:9-10 specifically quotes from the prophet Zechariah 11:12-13 in respect to the shepherd Judas Iscariot. You might want to consider reading more from the Law and the prophets and less from "review articles".
     
  19. 2ndpillar

    2ndpillar Well-Known Member

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    Your number 613 comes from the Pharisees and the scribes. Both the "house of Israel", currently "scattered among the nations" (Ezekiel 36:24) and the "house of Judah" will keep "my statutes, and observe them after they are joined and ruled by "king" "David" (Ezekiel 37:15-14), on the "land I gave to Jacob". This happens after they are given a new heart and spirit (Ezekiel 36:26-27).

    Ezekiel 36: 26“Moreover, I will give you a new heart and put a new spirit within you; and I will remove the heart of stone from your flesh and give you a heart of flesh. 27“I will put My Spirit within you and cause you to walk in My statutes, and you will be careful to observe My ordinances.
     
  20. sooda

    sooda Veteran Member
    It's My Birthday!

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    The age did end.. No more Temple Judaism and animal sacrifices. The power of Jewish law in Palestine was finished. That may not seem like a big deal to us, but it was a very big deal to them. In fact.. it helps to know some first century history and try to put yourself in that world.

    They really did suffer a horrible tribulation of famine and sickness, war and death like they had never known before.. Except for Jesus's gang, they went to Pella and avoided the tribulation.
     
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