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Featured If the Abrahamic faiths are culturally designated, where do I fit in?

Discussion in 'Religious Debates' started by Epic Beard Man, May 21, 2019.

  1. Epic Beard Man

    Epic Beard Man Bearded Philosopher

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    I did, but the Noahide tradition at least in my mind regardless of it being considered a "gentile" tradition, would be considered a step brother to Judaism just as Islam is a cousin of the two. I just thought Noahide is more closely aligned to Judaism than anything therefore I sought no real philosophical distinction outside of that (of course aside from observing the other laws in the Torah).

    Correct.
     
  2. Epic Beard Man

    Epic Beard Man Bearded Philosopher

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    Now this is new to me actually. I learn something new everyday. So as a non-Jew in my own time it is against some law for me to study the Torah on a scholarly level? Rival you ought to know me well enough to know that I encourage study and that I believe it is essential to understand all legal and spiritual works that come from divine providence.
     
  3. Rival

    Rival Noachide Counter-Revolutionary
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    Look, I can't pretend not to see where you are coming from, and if I awoke as a Yeshivah boy tomorrow it would be a dream come true, something I daydream about; but as it stands I am neither a Jew nor a boy and yes, this is from the Mishneh Torah. I believe the phrasing is 'obligated to die' in English.
     
    #83 Rival, May 22, 2019
    Last edited: May 22, 2019
  4. shunyadragon

    shunyadragon Veteran Member
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    The origins do not determine the cultural designation. The nature of the religion determines the degree of cultural designation. Every religion in the world has a place of origin. Essentially the origin of the Baha'i Faith is the Middle East from Iran to Palestine. Even though the scripture was first in Arabic and Persian, the Baha'i writings appeal to no single language for interpretation as do Judaism, Christianity and Islam. They also reject any specific cultural attributes as types of dress for believers and leaders, ie clergy. There has always been a distinct effort to embrace a more diverse world cultural perspective, and the humanities relationship with God, and the nature of God cannot be defined in any one cultural perspective.
     
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  5. Tumah

    Tumah Veteran Member

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    Noahidism is not a separate religion from Judaism. I think your mis-perception stems from a misconception about Judaism. For one thing, the Noahide Laws are found in the Talmud, so it is just as authentically Jewish as is the rest of Judaism. For another, it's not two separate strains here. I think you perceive as Jewish Law as being monolithic, when in reality there are different Laws for slaves of Gentile origin, children, women, men, Levites, Priests and kings. These all fit under the banner of Judaism. I don't see why it should be difficult to see Laws for Gentiles as being under that banner as well.

    To put it another way, "Judaism" doesn't exist. What we have is bunch of sets of Laws, with different sets being applicable to different parts of societies all over the world. Those sets that are specific to people of Jewish descent are what most people refer to as "Judaism". But internally, our sources really don't make any distinction and you're just as likely to come across a discussion in a Jewish text comparing a child's Law to an adults Law as you are to a Gentiles Law to a Jewish person's Law.
     
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  6. dybmh

    dybmh Terminal Optimist
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    New to me too... and so I started looking it up. this what I found, seems reasonable.

    @Tumah, what do you think about the quotes below? it comes from AskNoah.org. Do you know anyone over there?

    hyperlink >>> asknoah.org - Noahide Torah Study
     
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  7. Tumah

    Tumah Veteran Member

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    I've heard of the site, but I don't think I've ever been to their forum.
    In regards to what the poster wrote, I'm not really sure on whose authority (if any), they're making those statements. There's a lot of disagreement between Rabbis about what a non-Jew may study: some say only the Pentateuch, some say everything but the Pentateuch, some say the entire Written Torah, but not the Oral Torah and I believe still others allow study of parts of the Talmud that are relevant to the Noahide Laws. Some say the problem is for a Jew to teach a non-Jew but not for the non-Jew to study for themselves and still others say that even that is prohibited (outside study of the 7 Noahide Laws). Since there's not really a lot of demand for these types of questions to be answered, I don't know of any final positions on this.
    I don't believe there are opinions that say it's permitted to study Kabbalah or Hassidic works and I've seen for myself that the Zohar speaks strongly against it.
     
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  8. dybmh

    dybmh Terminal Optimist
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    I'm just now reading Tumah's reply. I don't think it's inappropriate to share this article. I think it is a good reliable source. I say reliable, because the sources are footnoted.

    hyperlink >>> etzion.org - Shiur #08: Talmud Torah for Non-Jews

    According to this article, the prohibition is discussed in the Talmud. Talmud probably gets it from The Mishnah, not be confused with the Rambam's Mishneh Torah.

    i think it's important to point out that there is a discussion here. If the Mishneh Torah you are referencing is correct: Rambam is giving 1 opinion which is part of a larger discussion.

    Another important note about the Rambam: The Vilna Gaon, one of the greatest Talmudic Scholars ever to grace the planet, was extremely critical of Rambam's conclusions. I can find the source for this if you want.

    Also... "obligated"... I think "liable" is a better word. But I can look it up if you wish.

    The thing is... virtually all of these texts are available online. And I am guessing many of them are supported by Orthodox Rabbis. I find it very hard to believe that Orthodox Rabbis, Rabbis whose opinion you would respect ( presumably, forgive the assumption ) would support the idea that Studying Torah obligates death for a non-Jew.
     
    #88 dybmh, May 22, 2019
    Last edited: May 22, 2019
  9. Rival

    Rival Noachide Counter-Revolutionary
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    I was going by memory and possibly some personal opinions. You are welcome to provide sources and I'm not arguing with you, albeit the thread might be derailed. I think Tumah has basically answered this question.
     
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  10. dybmh

    dybmh Terminal Optimist
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    I really appreciate that you raised the issue. I certainly do not want to offend you or any other Noahides or Jewish people.

    Also, in this thread I recommended that an observer spend time learning. Turns out, this may not be the best advice. If in the process of learning they find out that what they are learning is prohibited. That would potentially cause heart-ache and confusion.

    So, it's good that you brought it up.
     
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  11. Tumah

    Tumah Veteran Member

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    I didn't read the article, but the Talmud doesn't get it from the Mishnah, as the adjacent Mishnah is talking about a different subject altogether. That being said, there is a Tosefta (two actually) that mentions it.

    It's true that he's only one opinion in a discussion, but it should also be noted that Maimonides' opinion holds a lot of weight. Especially on subjects not generally covered by others.

    I do not believe that the Vilna Gaon was critical of Maimonides. The Raava"d was extremely critical of Maimonides for a number of reason. The Vilna Gaon might have disagreed - and he may be unique in regards to being allowed to do so - but I don't think he was actually critical. I don't think he wrote any glosses on Maimonides. His glosses are on the Shulchan Aruch (16th century) and they're really terse. Which is not to say you can't write terse glosses and still be critical, the Raava"d's glosses on Maimonides are full of remarks like "I don't know what this crazy person was thinking", but still...

    I think both are fine translations of the word, depending on the context. But it's important to note what that he also writes a few lines later that we would not actually kill that person (actually there is disagreement over whether we would ever kill a non-Jew for breaking the Noahide covenant or if that's something on the non-Jewish courts to work out). So you're right that the person would not be obligated to die.
     
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  12. dybmh

    dybmh Terminal Optimist
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    Just FYI, This part comes from "The Vilna Gaon" part of the Art Scroll History series. I read it recently, and this part about the Gaon's criticism stuck out in my mind, like, "Whoa". I was really surprised to read it. But to be fair, the book also makes it very clear that the Gaon's students consistently reported that the he never wished his own innovations/discoveries in Jewish Law to supercede accepted practices.
     
  13. adrian009

    adrian009 Well-Known Member
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    The capacity to ponder these very questions distinguishes us from the animal kingdom. There is no question we absorb values from our community. Growing up our main influences may include our families, schools, peers, media and those in the wider community around us. However, we clearly have capacity to reflect on, accept or reject those influences. So while I agree we absorb values we clearly have the capacity to ponder and reflect as to which values to accept.
     
  14. dianaiad

    dianaiad Well-Known Member

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    (grin) because Mormon missionaries have been doing 'just that' for years. That is, introducing one culture/religion to another, and getting everybody on the same page. Sort of. The folks of the south Pacific can tell you all about that.
     
  15. dybmh

    dybmh Terminal Optimist
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    I would second this, as the Mormons seem to have struck a very nice balance protecting and supporting the indigenous Polynesian culture.
     
  16. siti

    siti Well-Known Member

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    Then why did you suggest that America did not exist until someone named it after Amerigo Vespucci? That's just a label, a cultural label resulting from conquest and colonialism.

    And ignoring the fact that even as the United States of America was being established - under a declaration that included statements about the freedom and equality of all humans - and yet during the very period this "Christian" country was being established, the population of indigenous (non-Christian obviously) peoples declined from about 50 or 60 million to about 2 million in three centuries. Its not about "superior technology" - its about "white man speak with forked tongue" - "We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal..." ...but of course those savages are not equal - probably not even truly men...and they're occupying the land we want - let's get rid of 'em...that's what it was about. Of course the technology helped, but the motivation was neither that nor the desire to become more "Christ-like" was it? And are you seriously trying to claim that before the 21st century, such "Christian" people had not had sufficient time to understand the teachings of Christ properly? Were they really that dumb in the 1760s? Or were they in reality just savage "Christians" who had no real regard for the equality of "all men" than the average "Christian" seems to have today? Christianity was established as the religion of the "New World" exactly as it was established as the religion of the old a thousand years earlier - by conquest and subjugation.
     
  17. Hockeycowboy

    Hockeycowboy Well-Known Member
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    But for Christian religion, that's just it (if I understand you correctly)....their perspective should match God's, i.e., the God of the Bible. And Jesus' perspective, too.That is how it should be presented.

    Most groups have fallen far short...and willfully, at that!

    IMO..if it doesn't match the Greek Scriptures (what's commonly called the NT, the part containing guidelines for Christians), then they're not really obeying Jesus, 'remaining in his love'. John 15 10,14

    Take care.
     
  18. shunyadragon

    shunyadragon Veteran Member
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    This does negate the fact that the Mormon Church represents a designated culture in and of itself, and separate from traditional Christianity.
     
  19. TagliatelliMonster

    TagliatelliMonster Well-Known Member

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    ...and that somewhere is human imagination.
    This is, seems to me, necessarily the case - EVEN if we assume that one of them didn't and is actually true.

    Consider christianity, ancient egyptian beliefs, hinduism and mayan beliefs.
    Those are all vastly different stories, set in vastly different worlds, featuring vastly different "gods".

    They can't all be correct. For one to be correct, all the others must necessarily be wrong.
    So those that are wrong... well, people had to come up with them first, right? They had to have a story to be wrong about.

    ????

    Why on earth would that be "impossible"?
    Like said above: the quran and the gita can not both be right. At least one of them is necessarily human made.

    Why would it be impossible for multiple creative human minds, and in many cases even stretched over centuries, to come up with these stories?

    A single author wrote the Lord of the Rings. Or Star Wars. Or the Harry Potter series. That last one was a even conjured up by a toilet cleaning lady.

    If a single person in only a couple years at most, is able to come up with such epic stories and even inenting complete societies and "worlds", in some cases filled with magic.... why on earth would dozens, perhaps hundreds, of people stretched out over many generations not be able to do exactly that?
     
  20. dybmh

    dybmh Terminal Optimist
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    These were American Mormon Missionaries, I think. And they supported the indigenous culture.
     
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