Unless you have more than this declaration, I will be going with what I have already concluded from scripture.
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If Science were a woman, would it be smart one?
- Thread starter questfortruth
- Start date
Actually, I am pretty impressed with his knowledge of the Bible and other sources. He isn't going to change my beliefs, but have learned from his perspective and knowledge.
from the...Tree of Life. They were not created immortal and the fruit of that tree would have made them so. God did not want them to do that.
In what sense wrong? It's exactly what the text says. You acknowledge that in the Garden story there's not a single word about death entering the world, and I've shown you God's only reason for expelling them from the Garden, namely to prevent them from becoming immortal like [him].
Why is it that you don't want to admit the text says exactly what it says ─ no sin, no death entering the world, no redeemer needed ─ and want to insist it says the opposite? Does your faith allow you to rewrite ancient texts so they suit you?
At least I read what the words say. You might try that some time.
Oh, really? I must have missed it. Quote me the part that mentions "sin". Quote me the part that mentions "original sin". Quote me the part that mentions "the fall of man". Quote me the part that says "Death entered the world". Quote me the part that says "You're going to need a redeemer".
THEN you'll have shown me about death, sin and the redeemer, and not just pretended those words are there.
You can't have read it. The Tanakh is a collection of books of folktale, folk history, here and there real history, rules, genealogies, songs, poems, a play, wisdom, politics, polemic and so on. It's about the Jewish God.
The NT is a collection of stories and letters, and at the very least contains many fictions, three distinct Christologies, and attempts to reinterpret the Tanakh to suit the Christian view.
They aren't one story, they're a miscellany. If you believe they're one story then you'd be happy to own slaves, and you never keep company with menstruating women, you never suffer a witch to live, you support killing your firstborn son as an offering to god, and killing children who are rude to their parents, and so on ─ after all, as Matthew 5:18 says, "till heaven and earth pass away, not an iota, not a dot, will pass from the law until all is accomplished."
ElishaElijah
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And still wrong:
John 3 and the reason Jesus came and said if you don’t believe Him you will die in your sin.
ElishaElijah
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Did Adam and Eve die? Yes
ElishaElijah
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You know what that means? It means if you’re expecting to receive eternal life by the law you’re accountable to every jot and tittle, if you sin once you fail.
As for me I’m trusting in Jesus’ righteousness and sacrifice and have received Eternal Life and no longer in bondage to the Law. Jesus did the work.
ElishaElijah
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Happy Fathers Day! Later
That was never the issue ─ they were always going to die; and as I keep pointing out to you, God kicks them out of the Garden for the express purpose of preventing them from becoming immortal.
Dear oh dear. Get all that Christian retrofitting out of your head and read what the Tanakh actually says.
Not once have you faced up to the text, and not just for the Garden story. You haven't produced any evidence of a Roman census that required anyone to return to their native village to register (nor will you, the idea is too silly); nor have you produced any evidence of a "massacre of the innocents" because there wasn't one. Yet you try to make these matters go away by saying "I've already dealt with that" and so on ─ but you very plainly haven't.
You know what that means?
It means you should be following the Jewish law because it's still in force; you should observe the Sabbath on Saturday, kill the witches, avoid menstruating women, never shave your beard, and only bonk your slaves in the manner set out in Exodus.
ElishaElijah
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Where you miss it:
“Now when these things had been thus prepared, the priests always went into the first part of the tabernacle, performing the services. But into the second part the high priest went alone once a year, not without blood, which he offered for himself and for the people’s sins committed in ignorance; the Holy Spirit indicating this, that the way into the Holiest of All was not yet made manifest while the first tabernacle was still standing. It was symbolic for the present time in which both gifts and sacrifices are offered which cannot make him who performed the service perfect in regard to the conscience— concerned only with foods and drinks, various washings, and fleshly ordinances imposed until the time of reformation. But Christ came as High Priest of the good things to come, with the greater and more perfect tabernacle not made with hands, that is, not of this creation. Not with the blood of goats and calves, but with His own blood He entered the Most Holy Place once for all, having obtained eternal redemption. For if the blood of bulls and goats and the ashes of a heifer, sprinkling the unclean, sanctifies for the purifying of the flesh, how much more shall the blood of Christ, who through the eternal Spirit offered Himself without spot to God, cleanse your conscience from dead works to serve the living God? And for this reason He is the Mediator of the new covenant, by means of death, for the redemption of the transgressions under the first covenant, that those who are called may receive the promise of the eternal inheritance.”
Hebrews 9:6-15 NKJV
I’m free from sin with a clear conscience, worshipping and in fellowship with God my Father.
Sin no longer has a hold on me, I’m full of the Holy Spirit.
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That's again a Christian take, not something found in the Tanakh. As I've mentioned, the Tanakh is the Jewish bible and if you want to know what it's about, don't waste time asking Christians ─ they've felt free to retrofit it with their own ideas from early on.
If that's what you want, I'm pleased you're happy.
But you still haven't shown me historical evidence of a Roman census that demands people register in their native village, and you still haven't shown me historical evidence of any "massacre of the innocents" and you still haven't come to grips with the significance of such fictions in the gospels ─ and there are many many more examples.
ElishaElijah
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Not even concerned or interested in going down that path to nowhere. What is very clear is what I shared in Hebrews which is what the prophets saw in the Old Testament when the Holy Spirit was pointing to Jesus Christ. The New Covenant which I already shared from Jeremiah and fulfilled after Jesus rose from the dead and sent the Holy Spirit to live in all believers. The New Testament is the Old Testament revealed.
ElishaElijah
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@blü 2
“For I am not ashamed of the gospel of Christ, for it is the power of God to salvation for everyone who believes, for the Jew first and also for the Greek. For in it the righteousness of God is revealed from faith to faith; as it is written, “The just shall live by faith.””
Romans 1:16-17 NKJV
“For I am not ashamed of the gospel of Christ, for it is the power of God to salvation for everyone who believes, for the Jew first and also for the Greek. For in it the righteousness of God is revealed from faith to faith; as it is written, “The just shall live by faith.””
Romans 1:16-17 NKJV
Historical accuracy is "nowhere"? You astonish me! Is that what you mean by "living by faith"?
And as I now say for the third time, if you want to know what the Tanakh means, ask your Jewish friends ─ because the Christian claims about the Tanakh prophesying Jesus are, to put it politely, unsustainable.
ElishaElijah
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My Jewish friends are born again and are trusting Jesus Christ for Eternal life. In Him we live and move and have our being. He is very sustainable:
“He is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn over all creation. For by Him all things were created that are in heaven and that are on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or dominions or principalities or powers. All things were created through Him and for Him. And He is before all things, and in Him all things consist. And He is the head of the body, the church, who is the beginning, the firstborn from the dead, that in all things He may have the preeminence. For it pleased the Father that in Him all the fullness should dwell, and by Him to reconcile all things to Himself, by Him, whether things on earth or things in heaven, having made peace through the blood of His cross.”
Colossians 1:15-20 NKJV
That does not mean you are immune from sin. It means that you are aware and doing all you can to avoid sin.
That's to say, they're not Jewish, they're Christians. So they're not the people to ask about the Tanakh.
Go and find some real Jews and ask them. (Do I really have to tell you that?)
ElishaElijah
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“For he is not a Jew who is one outwardly, nor is circumcision that which is outward in the flesh; but he is a Jew who is one inwardly; and circumcision is that of the heart, in the Spirit, not in the letter; whose praise is not from men but from God.”
Romans 2:28-29 NKJV