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If Science were a woman, would it be smart one?

I have quoted you scripture all along. And I also take history into account ─ as those fictions in Matthew show. Are you going to address them? You don't have to, of course. If you don't know the answers, just say, "I don't know."
Already answered them at the beginning except Matthew 10:23, your personal interpretations have been wrong about Jesus. You said that Jesus isn’t mentioned in the Old Testament, gave you a bunch of examples. You still keep saying you can’t see them. Why continue?
 

blü 2

Veteran Member
Premium Member
Already answered them at the beginning except Matthew 10:23, your personal interpretations have been wrong about Jesus. You said that Jesus isn’t mentioned in the Old Testament, gave you a bunch of examples. You still keep saying you can’t see them. Why continue?
So you can learn that not one of your examples from the Tanakh is about Jesus. So you can see that whatever Jesus was, he was nothing like the concept of a Jewish messiah, and instead the medium for two millennia of antisemitism. So you can learn that the Suffering Servant was the nation of Israel. So you can learn that the authors of the gospels wrote fictions based on treating particular sayings from the Tanakh as "messianic prophecies" of Jesus and then writing their stories by moving their Jesus through fictions of such prophecies ─ as in the examples I gave you, and which despite your claims, you've never addressed. If you disagree, produce historical evidence of an empire-wide Roman census which required each citizen to return to his village of birth to register. That requirement is irrelevant and absurd, just on the face of it. Produce evidence of a "massacre of the innocents", an event so shocking when done by a head of state that no way could it have escaped history's notice.

And that's just the start.
 
So you can learn that not one of your examples from the Tanakh is about Jesus. So you can see that whatever Jesus was, he was nothing like the concept of a Jewish messiah, and instead the medium for two millennia of antisemitism. So you can learn that the Suffering Servant was the nation of Israel. So you can learn that the authors of the gospels wrote fictions based on treating particular sayings from the Tanakh as "messianic prophecies" of Jesus and then writing their stories by moving their Jesus through fictions of such prophecies ─ as in the examples I gave you, and which despite your claims, you've never addressed. If you disagree, produce historical evidence of an empire-wide Roman census which required each citizen to return to his village of birth to register. That requirement is irrelevant and absurd, just on the face of it. Produce evidence of a "massacre of the innocents", an event so shocking when done by a head of state that no way could it have escaped history's notice.

And that's just the start.
The whole Bible is about Jesus and how God was going to restore the relationship that was broken in the Garden. He was going to do this through His Son, who came and died for our sins ACCORDING TO THE SCRIPTURES (for the hard of hearing) he was buried, rose from the dead ACCORDING TO THE SCRIPTURES. So you are just like those people who didn’t recognize the Messiah when He came, even the priests knew where the Messiah would be born. If you can’t see Jesus in the 47 I gave you, when I get a chance I’m sure I can get hundreds together for you. If you still can’t see those you will have to wait to meet Jesus when you die or He returns.
 

blü 2

Veteran Member
Premium Member
The whole Bible is about Jesus
No, there is no mention, no concept, of Jesus in the Tanakh. Jesus is only found in the NT, and the reports are full of problems.
and how God was going to restore the relationship that was broken in the Garden.
I point out again that your interpretation of the Garden story simply does not appear in the text of the Garden story, which ─ check it for yourself ─ never once mentions sin, original sin, the fall of man, death entering the world, spiritual death, the need for a redeemer &c. Read it. Pay particular attention to Genesis 3:22-23 where God states [his] ONLY reason for chucking Adam and Eve out:

Genesis 3:22 Then the LORD God said, “Behold, the man has become like one of us, knowing good and evil; and now, lest he put forth his hand and take also of the tree of life, and eat, and live for ever”─ 23 therefore the LORD God sent him forth from the garden of Eden​
He was going to do this through His Son, who came and died for our sins ACCORDING TO THE SCRIPTURES (for the hard of hearing) he was buried, rose from the dead ACCORDING TO THE SCRIPTURES.
THAT is a Christian claim. Is it correct? No, it's not. Ask your Jewish friends ─ after all, the Tanakh is their book, not a Christian book.
So you are just like those people who didn’t recognize the Messiah when He came
How could anyone recognize someone who was never a civil, military or religious leader of the Jews and was never anointed by the priesthood as a Jewish messiah?

How could anyone recognize Jesus, founder of Christianity, and thus generator of two millennia of antisemitism, as a savior or benefactor of the Jews?
If you still can’t see those you will have to wait to meet Jesus when you die or He returns.
If he's returning, he's running two thousand years late already, so I hope you're not holding your breath.
 
If he's returning, he's running two thousand years late already, so I hope you're not holding your breath.
You’re part of this group:
“knowing this first of all, that scoffers will come in the last days with scoffing, following their own sinful desires. They will say, “Where is the promise of his coming? For ever since the fathers fell asleep, all things are continuing as they were from the beginning of creation.” For they deliberately overlook this fact, that the heavens existed long ago, and the earth was formed out of water and through water by the word of God, and that by means of these the world that then existed was deluged with water and perished. But by the same word the heavens and earth that now exist are stored up for fire, being kept until the day of judgment and destruction of the ungodly. But do not overlook this one fact, beloved, that with the Lord one day is as a thousand years, and a thousand years as one day. The Lord is not slow to fulfill his promise as some count slowness, but is patient toward you, not wishing that any should perish, but that all should reach repentance. But the day of the Lord will come like a thief, and then the heavens will pass away with a roar, and the heavenly bodies will be burned up and dissolved, and the earth and the works that are done on it will be exposed.”
‭‭2 Peter‬ ‭3:3-10‬ ‭ESV‬‬
 
How could anyone recognize someone who was never a civil, military or religious leader of the Jews and was never anointed by the priesthood as a Jewish messiah?

The Jews will recognize Him:
““And I will pour out on the house of David and the inhabitants of Jerusalem a spirit of grace and pleas for mercy, so that, when they look on me, on him whom they have pierced, they shall mourn for him, as one mourns for an only child, and weep bitterly over him, as one weeps over a firstborn.”
‭‭Zechariah‬ ‭12:10‬ ‭ESV‬‬
 
THAT is a Christian claim. Is it correct? No, it's not. Ask your Jewish friends ─ after all, the Tanakh is their book, not a Christian book.

Here are some of my Jewish family and friends
Preaching a message from the Tanakh, 3000 Jews are saved and the birth of the Jewish Church:

“And they were all filled with the Holy Spirit and began to speak in other tongues as the Spirit gave them utterance. Now there were dwelling in Jerusalem Jews, devout men from every nation under heaven. And at this sound the multitude came together, and they were bewildered, because each one was hearing them speak in his own language. And they were amazed and astonished, saying, “Are not all these who are speaking Galileans? And how is it that we hear, each of us in his own native language? Parthians and Medes and Elamites and residents of Mesopotamia, Judea and Cappadocia, Pontus and Asia, Phrygia and Pamphylia, Egypt and the parts of Libya belonging to Cyrene, and visitors from Rome, both Jews and proselytes, Cretans and Arabians—we hear them telling in our own tongues the mighty works of God.” And all were amazed and perplexed, saying to one another, “What does this mean?” But others mocking said, “They are filled with new wine.” But Peter, standing with the eleven, lifted up his voice and addressed them: “Men of Judea and all who dwell in Jerusalem, let this be known to you, and give ear to my words. For these people are not drunk, as you suppose, since it is only the third hour of the day. But this is what was uttered through the prophet Joel: “‘And in the last days it shall be, God declares, that I will pour out my Spirit on all flesh, and your sons and your daughters shall prophesy, and your young men shall see visions, and your old men shall dream dreams; even on my male servants and female servants in those days I will pour out my Spirit, and they shall prophesy. And I will show wonders in the heavens above and signs on the earth below, blood, and fire, and vapor of smoke; the sun shall be turned to darkness and the moon to blood, before the day of the Lord comes, the great and magnificent day. And it shall come to pass that everyone who calls upon the name of the Lord shall be saved.’ “Men of Israel, hear these words: Jesus of Nazareth, a man attested to you by God with mighty works and wonders and signs that God did through him in your midst, as you yourselves know— this Jesus, delivered up according to the definite plan and foreknowledge of God, you crucified and killed by the hands of lawless men. God raised him up, loosing the pangs of death, because it was not possible for him to be held by it. For David says concerning him, “‘I saw the Lord always before me, for he is at my right hand that I may not be shaken; therefore my heart was glad, and my tongue rejoiced; my flesh also will dwell in hope. For you will not abandon my soul to Hades, or let your Holy One see corruption. You have made known to me the paths of life; you will make me full of gladness with your presence.’ “Brothers, I may say to you with confidence about the patriarch David that he both died and was buried, and his tomb is with us to this day. Being therefore a prophet, and knowing that God had sworn with an oath to him that he would set one of his descendants on his throne, he foresaw and spoke about the resurrection of the Christ, that he was not abandoned to Hades, nor did his flesh see corruption. This Jesus God raised up, and of that we all are witnesses. Being therefore exalted at the right hand of God, and having received from the Father the promise of the Holy Spirit, he has poured out this that you yourselves are seeing and hearing. For David did not ascend into the heavens, but he himself says, “‘The Lord said to my Lord, “Sit at my right hand, until I make your enemies your footstool.”’ Let all the house of Israel therefore know for certain that God has made him both Lord and Christ, this Jesus whom you crucified.” Now when they heard this they were cut to the heart, and said to Peter and the rest of the apostles, “Brothers, what shall we do?” And Peter said to them, “Repent and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the forgiveness of your sins, and you will receive the gift of the Holy Spirit. For the promise is for you and for your children and for all who are far off, everyone whom the Lord our God calls to himself.” And with many other words he bore witness and continued to exhort them, saying, “Save yourselves from this crooked generation.” So those who received his word were baptized, and there were added that day about three thousand souls.”
‭‭Acts‬ ‭2:4-41‬ ‭ESV‬‬
 
I point out again that your interpretation of the Garden story simply does not appear in the text of the Garden story, which ─ check it for yourself ─

The Commandment from the Lord:

“The Lord God took the man and put him in the garden of Eden to work it and keep it. And the Lord God commanded the man, saying, “You may surely eat of every tree of the garden, but of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil you shall not eat, for in the day that you eat of it you shall surely die.””
‭‭Genesis‬ ‭2:15-17‬ ‭ESV‬‬

The Consequences of breaking the Commandment of the Lord:

“The Lord God said to the serpent, “Because you have done this, cursed are you above all livestock and above all beasts of the field; on your belly you shall go, and dust you shall eat all the days of your life. I will put enmity between you and the woman, and between your offspring and her offspring; he shall bruise your head, and you shall bruise his heel.” To the woman he said, “I will surely multiply your pain in childbearing; in pain you shall bring forth children. Your desire shall be contrary to your husband, but he shall rule over you.” And to Adam he said, “Because you have listened to the voice of your wife and have eaten of the tree of which I commanded you, ‘You shall not eat of it,’ cursed is the ground because of you; in pain you shall eat of it all the days of your life; thorns and thistles it shall bring forth for you; and you shall eat the plants of the field. By the sweat of your face you shall eat bread, till you return to the ground, for out of it you were taken; for you are dust, and to dust you shall return.””
‭‭Genesis‬ ‭3:14-19‬ ‭ESV‬‬

The rest of the Bible, Old and New Testament is the History and story of the redemption of man through Abraham, Israel, Church (Jew first then the Gentiles). For God So loved the world He gave His only Son that whoever Believes in Him shall not perish but have everlasting life. Through Jesus. Then Revelation of Jesus Christ when all things are made New and the final Judgement.
 

blü 2

Veteran Member
Premium Member
You’re part of this group:
“knowing this first of all, that scoffers will come in the last days with scoffing, following their own sinful desires. They will say, “Where is the promise of his coming? For ever since the fathers fell asleep, all things are continuing as they were from the beginning of creation.” For they deliberately overlook this fact, that the heavens existed long ago, and the earth was formed out of water and through water by the word of God, and that by means of these the world that then existed was deluged with water and perished. But by the same word the heavens and earth that now exist are stored up for fire, being kept until the day of judgment and destruction of the ungodly. But do not overlook this one fact, beloved, that with the Lord one day is as a thousand years, and a thousand years as one day. The Lord is not slow to fulfill his promise as some count slowness, but is patient toward you, not wishing that any should perish, but that all should reach repentance. But the day of the Lord will come like a thief, and then the heavens will pass away with a roar, and the heavenly bodies will be burned up and dissolved, and the earth and the works that are done on it will be exposed.”
‭‭2 Peter‬ ‭3:3-10‬ ‭ESV‬‬
What a pathetic excuse! The Kingdom was supposed to be set up in the lifetime of Jesus' hearers, AND NOTHING HAPPENED.

AND STILL NOTHING HAPPENED.

AND TWO THOUSAND YEARS LATER STILL NOTHING HAS HAPPENED.
The Jews will recognize Him:
““And I will pour out on the house of David and the inhabitants of Jerusalem a spirit of grace and pleas for mercy, so that, when they look on me, on him whom they have pierced, they shall mourn for him, as one mourns for an only child, and weep bitterly over him, as one weeps over a firstborn.”
‭‭Zechariah‬ ‭12:10‬ ‭ESV‬‬
That's the Tanakh. As I said, Jesus is nowhere in the Tanakh.

Nor was Jesus "poured out on the house of David". Christianity ceased to be Jewish from the moment Paul renounced the Covenant, if not earlier, when Paul and the author of John declared that because God was a gnostic God, you had to have a mediator between [him] and you. Up till then, you could pray directly to the Jewish God, as you still can.

And the same is exactly true of your quote from Acts‬ ‭2:4-41. They were not being taken in Judaism. They were be taken into Christianity.
 

blü 2

Veteran Member
Premium Member
The Commandment from the Lord:

“The Lord God took the man and put him in the garden of Eden to work it and keep it. And the Lord God commanded the man, saying, “You may surely eat of every tree of the garden, but of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil you shall not eat, for in the day that you eat of it you shall surely die.””
‭‭Genesis‬ ‭2:15-17‬ ‭ESV‬‬

The Consequences of breaking the Commandment of the Lord:

“The Lord God said to the serpent, “Because you have done this, cursed are you above all livestock and above all beasts of the field; on your belly you shall go, and dust you shall eat all the days of your life. I will put enmity between you and the woman, and between your offspring and her offspring; he shall bruise your head, and you shall bruise his heel.” To the woman he said, “I will surely multiply your pain in childbearing; in pain you shall bring forth children. Your desire shall be contrary to your husband, but he shall rule over you.” And to Adam he said, “Because you have listened to the voice of your wife and have eaten of the tree of which I commanded you, ‘You shall not eat of it,’ cursed is the ground because of you; in pain you shall eat of it all the days of your life; thorns and thistles it shall bring forth for you; and you shall eat the plants of the field. By the sweat of your face you shall eat bread, till you return to the ground, for out of it you were taken; for you are dust, and to dust you shall return.””
‭‭Genesis‬ ‭3:14-19‬ ‭ESV‬‬
You forgot to quote the parts of the Garden story that mention ─
sin
original sin
the fall of man
death entering the world
spiritual death
the need for a redeemer.

Tell me, is that because NONE of those words appear?
 
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What a pathetic excuse! The Kingdom was supposed to be set up in the lifetime of Jesus' hearers, AND NOTHING HAPPENED.

AND STILL NOTHING HAPPENED.

AND TWO THOUSAND YEARS LATER STILL NOTHING HAS HAPPENED.
You’re missing it and don’t understand what’s going on, here is Jesus first message after the wilderness:
“From that time Jesus began to preach, saying, “Repent, for the kingdom of heaven is at hand.””
‭‭Matthew‬ ‭4:17‬ ‭ESV‬‬
 
You forgot to quote the parts of the Garden story that mention ─
sin
original sin
the fall of man
death entering the world
spiritual death
the need for a redeemer.

Tell me, is that because NONE of those words appear?

What’s it called when a person breaks God’s Commandment?
What’s it called when men go from eternal life in the garden to dying?
Even brother sins against brother and God says in Genesis to Cain.

“If you do well, will you not be accepted? And if you do not do well, sin is crouching at the door. Its desire is contrary to you, but you must rule over it.” Cain spoke to Abel his brother. And when they were in the field, Cain rose up against his brother Abel and killed him.”
‭‭Genesis‬ ‭4:7-8‬ ‭ESV‬‬
 
Nor was Jesus "poured out on the house of David". Christianity ceased to be Jewish from the moment Paul renounced the Covenant
Who said?
““Behold, the days are coming, declares the Lord, when I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel and the house of Judah, not like the covenant that I made with their fathers on the day when I took them by the hand to bring them out of the land of Egypt, my covenant that they broke, though I was their husband, declares the Lord. For this is the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel after those days, declares the Lord: I will put my law within them, and I will write it on their hearts. And I will be their God, and they shall be my people.”
‭‭Jeremiah‬ ‭31:31-33‬ ‭ESV‬‬

Jesus institutes this New Covenant:
“Then He took the cup, and gave thanks, and gave it to them, saying, “Drink from it, all of you. For this is My blood of the new covenant, which is shed for many for the remission of sins.”
‭‭Matthew‬ ‭26:27-28‬ ‭NKJV

If you want to understand then read Hebrews
 
@blü 2
You remind me of a farmers neighbor yelling at the farmer as he plows his field saying where’s your crop? You can’t grow anything! It will fail.
Farmer plants the seed and every day the neighbor makes fun of the farmer saying nothing happening see
Then the crop grows and still no corn and the neighbor continues to yell at the farmer see no corn! Nothing happening.
Then harvest comes and the farmer gets his reward and the neighbor has nothing. Yet the farmer feeds the neighbor.
 

Dan From Smithville

What's up Doc?
Staff member
Premium Member
You forgot to quote the parts of the Garden story that mention ─
sin
original sin
the fall of man
death entering the world
spiritual death
the need for a redeemer.

Tell me, is that because NONE of those words appear?
I wonder about the presumed state of immortality of Adam and Eve. God removes them from the Garden in order to block access to immortality granted by eating of the Tree of Life. I think death was already a part of the picture before they sinned against God.
 

blü 2

Veteran Member
Premium Member
You’re missing it and don’t understand what’s going on, here is Jesus first message after the wilderness:
“From that time Jesus began to preach, saying, “Repent, for the kingdom of heaven is at hand.””
‭‭Matthew‬ ‭4:17‬ ‭ESV‬‬
You have the quotes I gave earlier. They promise the establishment of the Kingdom in the lifetime of some of Jesus' hearers.

That didn't happen and has never happened.
What’s it called when a person breaks God’s Commandment?
What’s it called when men go from eternal life in the garden to dying?
Ah, now we're getting somewhere! You admit that none of the words 'sin', 'original sin', 'fall of man', 'death entering the world', 'spiritual death' and 'redeemer' are NOT present at any point in the story.

They are, as I've already told you more than once, an interpretation that doesn't exist till late in the second century BCE, and isn't an active part of Christianity till Augustine of Hippo makes it a big deal c. 400 CE.

Now, let's go through Genesis 3:22-23 again. It's where God gives his reasons for chucking Adam and Eve out of the Garden. If ever God was going to mention sin, or death entering the world, &c &c. it would be here. But NO! God gives them the boot for the sole purpose of preventing them from eating from the tree of life and becoming immortal like him. You did read that part, didn't you?

Now to answer your question, which yet again I've answered previously, there is no mention of sin because there is no sin. And the reason there can't be sin is that ─

God has deliberately withheld from Adam and Eve any knowledge of good and evil.

Adam and Eve therefore not only can't tell right from wrong, they don't even know what right and wrong are.

Therefore it's impossible for them to intend to do wrong.

Therefore it's impossible for them to sin ─ until AFTER they've eaten the fruit.

So there was no sin, there was no original sin, there was no fall of man, in the Garden story.

Got it this time?
If you want to understand then read Hebrews
If you want to understand the Tanakh, read the Tanakh. Don't read the NT. It has no authority over the meaning of the Tanakh.
 
You have the quotes I gave earlier. They promise the establishment of the Kingdom in the lifetime of some of Jesus' hearers.

That didn't happen and has never happened.
Ah, now we're getting somewhere! You admit that none of the words 'sin', 'original sin', 'fall of man', 'death entering the world', 'spiritual death' and 'redeemer' are NOT present at any point in the story.

They are, as I've already told you more than once, an interpretation that doesn't exist till late in the second century BCE, and isn't an active part of Christianity till Augustine of Hippo makes it a big deal c. 400 CE.

Now, let's go through Genesis 3:22-23 again. It's where God gives his reasons for chucking Adam and Eve out of the Garden. If ever God was going to mention sin, or death entering the world, &c &c. it would be here. But NO! God gives them the boot for the sole purpose of preventing them from eating from the tree of life and becoming immortal like him. You did read that part, didn't you?

Now to answer your question, which yet again I've answered previously, there is no mention of sin because there is no sin. And the reason there can't be sin is that ─

God has deliberately withheld from Adam and Eve any knowledge of good and evil.

Adam and Eve therefore not only can't tell right from wrong, they don't even know what right and wrong are.

Therefore it's impossible for them to intend to do wrong.

Therefore it's impossible for them to sin ─ until AFTER they've eaten the fruit.

So there was no sin, there was no original sin, there was no fall of man, in the Garden story.

Got it this time?
If you want to understand the Tanakh, read the Tanakh. Don't read the NT. It has no authority over the meaning of the Tanakh.
You’re comments show a total lack of understanding of the Scriptures
 
They are, as I've already told you more than once, an interpretation that doesn't exist till late in the second century BCE, and isn't an active part of Christianity till Augustine of Hippo makes it a big deal c. 400 CE.

Now, let's go through Genesis 3:22-23 again. It's where God gives his reasons for chucking Adam and Eve out of the Garden. If ever God was going to mention sin, or death entering the world, &c &c. it would be here. But NO! God gives them the boot for the sole purpose of preventing them from eating from the
Ah, now we're getting somewhere! You admit that none of the words 'sin', 'original sin', 'fall of man', 'death entering the world', 'spiritual death' and 'redeemer' are NOT present at any point in the story.
Wrong, and already showed you about death, sin and the redeemer. Do you think there were chapters and verses in the Genesis story? The whole Bible is ONE STORY. The New Testament or Covenant is the Tanakh, Old Testament revealed.
 
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