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If religion is a placebo...

Windwalker

Veteran Member
Premium Member
This is as far as I've read, so I don't know what's been said. But I agree with what both of you are saying.

If each religion is a separate pill, and is claimed to be the remedy, they all work... for those that believe they are the real thing. But they all fail to work if not believed in. To overly simplify religions, if they were meant to get people to obey rules and be nice to one another, how would we get people to actually do that? Some religions say there is an invisible God that is watching and will punish the person that does not obey. It kind of works... If people believe. It's just that there's so much "bathwater" that goes along with believing in that invisible God.
This is all true. It's complicated. External rule/role is a developmental stage, and exoteric religions at their best are good at that with a goal towards internalizing the principles and developing into an esoteric religion where genuine spirituality and transformation comes online. However, it's quite easy for the religion to be nothing but extoric rule/role and no esoteric interior developmental.

Fundamentalism then takes the extoric aspects of religion to an extreme and uses fear to force compliance and keeping everyone dependent upon their control over them. Their bathwater is the most polluted, where the Baby is barely still alive in it at all from being held underneath the water by the guardians of religious purity. If it's alive, its gasping for air.
 

PearlSeeker

Well-Known Member
When you exist as just your soul, it automatically "reads" the energy of all the other entities, including when God makes his presence known, and his love energy is overpowering. It takes a LOT of practice to filter it down and take in what he's trying to impart to me.
So there is a special love (energy) that is from God? This means we can't just identify every love between people as God?

Why is God so hidden any so many are unable to communicate with him? I haven't been able to enter silence/soul and hear anything. I have just found my own thoughts and no feedback...
 

CG Didymus

Veteran Member
This is all true. It's complicated. External rule/role is a developmental stage, and exoteric religions at their best are good at that with a goal towards internalizing the principles and developing into an esoteric religion where genuine spirituality and transformation comes online. However, it's quite easy for the religion to be nothing but extoric rule/role and no esoteric interior developmental.

Fundamentalism then takes the extoric aspects of religion to an extreme and uses fear to force compliance and keeping everyone dependent upon their control over them. Their bathwater is the most polluted, where the Baby is barely still alive in it at all from being held underneath the water by the guardians of religious purity. If it's alive, its gasping for air.
Also, because each pill/religion works somewhat, the believers in each tend to think their pill is better or even the only "real" pill. I'm talking mostly about "organized" religions and mostly Christian religions, though. But even a religion like the Baha'i Faith, that says they accept all religions as being true, they too seem to act as if their "pill" is the only that works. To them, the others no longer have the right medicinal/spiritual ingredients to work properly.

But, since most religions depend on people believing some things on faith, meaning no proof, all of them are possibly wrong about some of their spiritual teaching and their beliefs about the Gods or God. And if they are wrong, then I don't see how their religion can be anything other than a placebo. One thing for sure, though... I enjoyed religion much more before I became skeptical of them really having and telling the truth. My ignorance was a sort of spiritual bliss.
 

Windwalker

Veteran Member
Premium Member
Also, because each pill/religion works somewhat, the believers in each tend to think their pill is better or even the only "real" pill. I'm talking mostly about "organized" religions and mostly Christian religions, though.
That is not necessarily so. There are a great many followers in all of the different religions who recognize that other religions offer the same benefits to others as theirs does to them, and even more so than their own in some cases. What you are describing is not some common characteristic of religions, which it is not, but rather of certain types of believers in where they are at in their faith development.

It is very common for human beings when they discover something that works for them, to assume that it will work the same for everyone else. It doesn't matter if it's religion or a program of physical fitness. "This is great, you should do it too!". But those who have been around awhile longer and looked a little deeper begin to recognize that the same benefits they get from their practice, others get the same benefits from their different practices. This is a matter of maturity, not religion.

But even a religion like the Baha'i Faith, that says they accept all religions as being true, they too seem to act as if their "pill" is the only that works. To them, the others no longer have the right medicinal/spiritual ingredients to work properly.
Well yes, that is something that I've readily observed myself. What it is that I see is that they take this idea of a "universal religion", but hold it in that earlier stage of faith development that they have the "one true religion", and the rest is trying to make "universal", fit "one right religion" mindset. It may have at one point in its history in the mid 1800's have some higher insight, but it stopped there and gets interpreted down into "ours is the best, and theirs needed fixing". This is not actually a higher level of insight. That is not actually pluralism. It's ethnocentrism calling itself pluralistic.

But, since most religions depend on people believing some things on faith, meaning no proof,
That's not actually what faith is. Faith is not basically doing science without evidence. Faith at its core is about believing with the heart, not the cognitive mind. It's about intuition, not about head knowledge of facts and figures. That they may conflate faith with beliefs and ideas about God, is a problem of their understanding of what faith actually is. Faith is something felt, not thought.

I have a lot more I can say on that.

all of them are possibly wrong about some of their spiritual teaching and their beliefs about the Gods or God.
I gauge their legitimacy upon the authenticity of what the teachings and beliefs actually produce in the practitioners of those teachings. There are many different ways to speak symbolically about these things, but it's what is produced through those symbolic means that matters. Jesus said it perfectly when he was trying to distinguish between those who claim to be followers of the way, and those who actually are. "By their fruits you shall know them".

Truth in religion is about transformation. It's not the same as truth as you might think of it in terms of doing science.

And if they are wrong, then I don't see how their religion can be anything other than a placebo.
What do you mean by anything more than a placebo? If it acts as a symbolic system that engages self-healing and self-transformation, that is in fact its true power. Are you thinking it's something that is external to one's own internal processes that creates change by imposing itself upon you? In other words, you just take the pill and it does it for you and you don't have to do anything at all?

I think that is what people imagine when they think of things like God. God will do it for them, rather than understanding that they have to be participants in that process of healing and transformation. Religion is not a pharmaceutical drug. It requires your own belief in it, in order for this statement from Jesus to be actually true "Your faith has made you whole".

Make sense?

One thing for sure, though... I enjoyed religion much more before I became skeptical of them really having and telling the truth. My ignorance was a sort of spiritual bliss.
I think most of us here have been in the place. But I've been coming to understand it a lot more clearly from the other side of deconstructing it. There is a whole lot more to the picture, than just simply debunking mythology mistakenly read as scientific facts.
 
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CG Didymus

Veteran Member
What do you mean by anything more than a placebo? If it acts as a symbolic system that engages self-healing and self-transformation, that is in fact its true power. Are you thinking it's something that is external to one's own internal processes that creates change by imposing itself upon you? In other words, you just take the pill and it does it for you and you don't have to do anything at all?
Of course I'm just generalizing and basing a lot of this on the types of Christianity that bases its beliefs on a very literal interpretation of the Bible.

The pill... Adam listened to the serpent, who was really Satan, and sin and death entered the world. But Jesus paid the penalty. Believe in him and you will have eternal life and go to heaven instead of hell.

But to prove you are really sincere and you do believe in Jesus, you need to live a righteous, loving, humble, etc. kind of life. I don't know if any of the stuff about Adam, Satan and Jesus is true. I have my doubts and consider it myth. But those that swallow all those beliefs then have to show that they truly believe by applying the teachings of loving your neighbor and living by a strict moral code and all the other stuff. But they are also obligated to go out and spread the "good news" about this magic pill...
 

Windwalker

Veteran Member
Premium Member
The pill... Adam listened to the serpent, who was really Satan, and sin and death entered the world. But Jesus paid the penalty. Believe in him and you will have eternal life and go to heaven instead of hell.

But to prove you are really sincere and you do believe in Jesus, you need to live a righteous, loving, humble, etc. kind of life. I don't know if any of the stuff about Adam, Satan and Jesus is true. I have my doubts and consider it myth. But those that swallow all those beliefs then have to show that they truly believe by applying the teachings of loving your neighbor and living by a strict moral code and all the other stuff. But they are also obligated to go out and spread the "good news" about this magic pill...
I'm not seeing this as truly the placebo effect. Rather what you are describing is more along the lines of behavioral modification through a externalized system of rewards and punishments. Be good, you get an apple. Be bad, you get a stick. All of that has the ego and its own self-preservation as the motivating factor.

The placebo effect has more to do with self-healing, curing an internal ailment and a desire for relief from suffering. The placebo effect is what happens when you place faith in an external agent to help relieve you from suffering, or heal you in other words. It's the engagement of faith that you can be healed, that itself brings about the healing. It is the belief, that engages the types of energies that bring about self-healing.

The strength of these energies is something that can actually be cultivated and strengthened though intentional practices, such as qigong and standing meditations. But that you see the placebo effect as a common occurrence, this shows that this is innate in everyone. And "faith", or an intentionality towards recovery, is a major factor in actual recovery. This is not a mysterious thing in the field of medicine. The patient's mindset is often the critical variable between recovery or not.

So then the question is what is about religious or spiritual beliefs that are so effective in this way? While religion can be used as a tool of behavior modification and social control through a system of rewards and punishments, what is it about religious symbolisms that brings about actual self-healing and self-transformation? This goes beyond rule/role behavioral modification, into actual healing.
 

CG Didymus

Veteran Member
So then the question is what is about religious or spiritual beliefs that are so effective in this way? While religion can be used as a tool of behavior modification and social control through a system of rewards and punishments, what is it about religious symbolisms that brings about actual self-healing and self-transformation? This goes beyond rule/role behavioral modification, into actual healing.
That is why I question how real it is. If it's not just within the mind of the believer. I've seen people get "healed" at Pentecostal Churches, but it was things like a backache or having migraines. I didn't trust they were real. Then a friend went up on stage and the preacher prayed and my friend said that all of a sudden it felt like warm honey was being poured over him. So, I don't know. What was that? But then some of these faith-healers get caught faking things.

Then another friend is being "healed" spiritually, physically, and emotionally through Scientology. It costs him a couple thousand dollars for every course he takes. But he says it's working.

So, I don't know. Since they all believe in different things, and not necessarily God, then what could it be? Belief... in whatever that religion says is true?
 

Windwalker

Veteran Member
Premium Member
That is why I question how real it is. If it's not just within the mind of the believer.
But that's the point. It is in the mind. The mind is what brings about the healing, which is real healing. So it's not "just in the mind". It's in the body as well, which the mind was the causal agent itself. The mind, the belief itself, not what is believing in, but the act of believing itself is what brings about the healing.

That is what the "placebo effect" is. Think less of the word "placebo" and think more of the "effect". There is an effect. The effect is real. And the mind alone caused that effect. That is what the focus should be on. Not that the pill was just sugar. The fact the mind alone did it.

I've seen people get "healed" at Pentecostal Churches, but it was things like a backache or having migraines. I didn't trust they were real. Then a friend went up on stage and the preacher prayed and my friend said that all of a sudden it felt like warm honey was being poured over him. So, I don't know. What was that? But then some of these faith-healers get caught faking things.
A lot of that kind of stuff is more just about the ego and fitting into the group. It's like everyone all speaking in tongues. Everyone does it to fit into the group. So how much of that is coming from actual faith, versus how much of that is just socialized behaviors, I'd have to say it probably weighs more to the socialized behavior side of things.

Then another friend is being "healed" spiritually, physically, and emotionally through Scientology. It costs him a couple thousand dollars for every course he takes. But he says it's working.
It would be great if he didn't need to get fleeced to realize he can do the same thing without giving them his money. But maybe that's part of what makes it work for him. Because he gives them money. But it is still just his belief itself that is doing it, and it has really nothing to do with what they are teaching or saying to him. If he placed his faith in a milk bottle to heal him, he could find healing there as well, because it is about belief itself, not whatever the person might be believing in.

So, I don't know. Since they all believe in different things, and not necessarily God, then what could it be? Belief... in whatever that religion says is true?
Belief itself. The mind itself, to be more specific. Belief is merely the impetus to get the mind to direct itself towards self-healing. Jesus nailed it when he said to the woman who was healed simply by touching the hem of his garment. "Your faith has made you whole". It was her faith that did.
 

PearlSeeker

Well-Known Member
But that's the point. It is in the mind. The mind is what brings about the healing, which is real healing. So it's not "just in the mind". It's in the body as well, which the mind was the causal agent itself. The mind, the belief itself, not what is believing in, but the act of believing itself is what brings about the healing.

That is what the "placebo effect" is. Think less of the word "placebo" and think more of the "effect". There is an effect. The effect is real. And the mind alone caused that effect. That is what the focus should be on. Not that the pill was just sugar. The fact the mind alone did it.


A lot of that kind of stuff is more just about the ego and fitting into the group. It's like everyone all speaking in tongues. Everyone does it to fit into the group. So how much of that is coming from actual faith, versus how much of that is just socialized behaviors, I'd have to say it probably weighs more to the socialized behavior side of things.


It would be great if he didn't need to get fleeced to realize he can do the same thing without giving them his money. But maybe that's part of what makes it work for him. Because he gives them money. But it is still just his belief itself that is doing it, and it has really nothing to do with what they are teaching or saying to him. If he placed his faith in a milk bottle to heal him, he could find healing there as well, because it is about belief itself, not whatever the person might be believing in.


Belief itself. The mind itself, to be more specific. Belief is merely the impetus to get the mind to direct itself towards self-healing. Jesus nailed it when he said to the woman who was healed simply by touching the hem of his garment. "Your faith has made you whole". It was her faith that did.
This self-reliant faith in human potential and wellness then eliminates the need for (traditional) religious faith, right?

This is what the "new thought" movement is about (Joe Dispenza, law of attraction, autosuggestion, positive thinking...). Everything is possible with the right mental technique... I am a little suspicious about NTM. Partly it's true but sometimes this seems exaggerated - like pseudoscience and magical thinking.
 

Windwalker

Veteran Member
Premium Member
This self-reliant faith in human potential and wellness then eliminates the need for (traditional) religious faith, right?
No, not necessarily. My thoughts are a little complicated on this, but I'll try to flesh it out some.

What religious systems, if we are talking the Wisdom aspects, or the more esoteric spiritual transformational aspects of it, all generally focus on seeking a "higher power" than one's own self-reliance. The spiritual transformation, which brings about a higher realization of the human potential; mentally, physically, emotionally, socially, and spiritually, is brought on by transcending egoic self-reliance, or the effort of the human will. It is the "spiritual-will" that brings about these things by doing the opposite of "self-reliance".

This is all captured in the religious themes of death and rebirth, or death and resurrection. Jesus says, "Whoever finds their life will lose it, and whoever loses their life for my sake will find it." Again, themes like "I die daily", as the Apostle Paul says, speaks to laying down our egoic-seekings, and then finding that Life through this act of "Kenosis" or self-emptying.

The Buddhists likewise emphasize the exact same thing about overcoming the egoic self identification to find the Buddhamind which is the true, "higher nature" of what and who we are. Hindu's same thing with overcoming the illusion of the mind seeing itself as the center of the true self. All of these egoic paths, "whoever finds their life will lose it", is not that path to true Awakening, or the spiritually Realized life.

So now to these modernist folks like a Joe Dispenza and whatnot, and even going back to the origins of the New Thought movement of the early 19th century. First off, it's really not "New Thought" in the sense of a new idea! This realization goes back millenia in human history. Take for instance Proverbs 23:7, "As a man thinketh in his heart, so is he". Take Jesus, "But the things that come out of the mouth come from the heart, and these make a man `unclean. ' For out of the heart come evil thoughts, murder, adultery, sexual immorality, theft, false testimony, slander." I could go on and on with citations of this basic principle found throughout human history.

The problem with these modernist takes on this ancient principle is that they seem to try to take the truths of these ancient teachings, and make them a "scientific" formula, without actually getting to the root causes behind why we engage in negative thought cycles, which lead to conflicts and stress, and ill health, mentally, spiritually, and physically. "Just think positive thoughts", through brute force, can in a way just create a conflict of the mind through repression. It doesn't necessarily truly transform thoughts. It can become "forced" and unreal. And unreal means it is not integrated into one's whole being, mentally, physically, and spiritually.

The archetypal forms of religious symbolisms are powerful tools to go deep into our psyches. In externalizing this "higher power", in various deity forms, it engages our own inner spiritual connection with Life itself, beyond our "fallen" nature, or our egoic self-identification, or "self-reliance". We all have in us both our fleshly nature, and our spiritual nature, or our higher Self, what we are beyond the fleshly, temporal, or egoic self.

This is captured perfectly in what Paul says, "I live, and yet not I, but Christ in me". There you have the fleshly I, or the egoic separate self-identification apart from the Divine, and the true "I", that is the Divine, or "Christ in me".

So the problem with these modern marketers of spirituality in the marketplace of the modern consumer who buys "Buddha in a Box" at the checkout lanes of Wallmark, or books from these "Higher self the easy way" folks who sell programs and give seminars for a hefty price tag, enriching themselves by selling Liberation and Enlightenment as a capitalist product, it can become "climbing in another way", to quote Jesus again.

If they really want "new throught", or rather to have their thinking itself transformed, they cannot bypass addressing the egoic craving and self-seeking itself, which is the very source of suffering itself. These "Buddha in a Box", Shortcuts to Nirvana, salvation by works, folks are all just avoiding facing the death of the self and finding liberation and healing though "laying down their life", or their self-seekings.

But this exact same criticism can be leveled at practitioners of religions. It is not unique to this form of "spiritual bypassing", under the cloak of spiritual programs. The ego is a slippery one. It likes to find a way to make you think you're on the right path, when in fact it's just the ego masquerading as spirituality. Think legalistic religious thought, "If I do this, then I will be saved".

The term for all that is Atman Project, all the projects or activities we do in life to avoid facing the Atman, or the higher power, the Self, the "Christ in me" realization. All of which requires the dissolution of the egoic self.

So in a sense these New Thought teachers, are really just the Modernist version of the Televangelist of the fundamentalist fame, selling bottles of healing oils for a donation of $100. The buyer may in fact find good in those, but only if they themselves come to it with a true, self-emptying spiritual intent, laying down their egos and sincerely believing in their "higher power", which in effect brings about "I live, yet not I but Christ in me".

Sorry of that rambled a bit, but as I said it's many complex lines of thought intersecting each other.

This is what the "new thought" movement is about (Joe Dispenza, law of attraction, autosuggestion, positive thinking...). Everything is possible with the right mental technique... I am a little suspicious about NTM. Partly it's true but sometimes this seems exaggerated - like pseudoscience and magical thinking.
Yes, pseudoscience and magical thinking looking to scientific thinking, instead of religious thinking. It follows the thinker, not necessarily the system. :)

It's not that there's necessarily anything wrong with the principles they teach in either modernist New Thought programs, or in traditional religious systems, but it's the style or the manner in which it is both presented, or recieved, that makes it that "Atman Project", or spiritual bypassing, or makes it authentic healing through self-emptying of self-seeking egoic projects. "I surrender".

It all boils down to the person and their own Spiritual Intention. And the trick is discerning if it is an authentic spiritual intention, or an inauthentic egoic intention.
 
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PearlSeeker

Well-Known Member
I'm (re)reading Pascal's Thoughts. Here is something regarding OP.

164
He who does not see the vanity of the world is himself very vain. Indeed who do not see it but youths who are absorbed in fame, diversion, and the thought of the future? But take away diversion, and you will see them dried up with weariness. They feel then their nothingness without knowing it; for it is indeed to be unhappy to be in insufferable sadness as soon as we are reduced to thinking of self, and have no diversion.

165
Thoughts.—In omnibus requiem quæsivi. [transl. Everywhere I have sought peace.] If our condition were truly happy, we would not need diversion from thinking of it in order to make ourselves happy.

166
Diversion.—Death is easier to bear without thinking of it, than is the thought of death without peril.

167
The miseries of human life have established all this: as men have seen this, they have taken up diversion.

168
Diversion.—As men are not able to fight against death, misery, ignorance, they have taken it into their heads, in order to be happy, not to think of them at all.

169
Despite these miseries, man wishes to be happy, and only wishes to be happy, and cannot wish not to be so. But how will he set about it? To be happy he would have to make himself immortal; but, not being able to do so, it has occurred to him to prevent himself from thinking of death.

170
Diversion.—If man were happy, he would be the more so, the less he was diverted, like the Saints and God.—Yes; but is it not to be happy to have a faculty of being amused by diversion?—No; for that comes from elsewhere and from without, and thus is dependent, and therefore subject to be disturbed by a thousand accidents, which bring inevitable griefs.

171
Misery.—The only thing which consoles us for our miseries is diversion, and yet this it the greatest of our miseries. For it is this which principally hinders us from reflecting upon ourselves, and which makes us insensibly ruin ourselves. Without this we should be in a state of weariness, and this weariness would spur us to seek a more solid means of escaping from it. But diversion amuses us, and leads us unconsciously to death.
 
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PureX

Veteran Member
... what is the real medicine?

What do you think?
Placebos are real medicine. They simply help us to employ our own inner healing mechanisms. The power of religion to heal isn't in the church, or in the words of a holy book, or even in the act of praying. It's in the spirit within us, and in it's ability to change us physically and mentally. And religion (churches, dictrines, prayers, rituals, etc.) can help us to awaken that spirit of positive changen within. If we are willing.
 
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Trailblazer

Veteran Member
I'm (re)reading Pascal's Thoughts. Here is something regarding OP.

164
He who does not see the vanity of the world is himself very vain. Indeed who do not see it but youths who are absorbed in fame, diversion, and the thought of the future? But take away diversion, and you will see them dried up with weariness. They feel then their nothingness without knowing it; for it is indeed to be unhappy to be in insufferable sadness as soon as we are reduced to thinking of self, and have no diversion.

165
Thoughts.—In omnibus requiem quæsivi. [transl. Everywhere I have sought peace.] If our condition were truly happy, we would not need diversion from thinking of it in order to make ourselves happy.

166
Diversion.—Death is easier to bear without thinking of it, than is the thought of death without peril.

167
The miseries of human life have established all this: as men have seen this, they have taken up diversion.

168
Diversion.—As men are not able to fight against death, misery, ignorance, they have taken it into their heads, in order to be happy, not to think of them at all.

169
Despite these miseries, man wishes to be happy, and only wishes to be happy, and cannot wish not to be so. But how will he set about it? To be happy he would have to make himself immortal; but, not being able to do so, it has occurred to him to prevent himself from thinking of death.

170
Diversion.—If man were happy, he would be the more so, the less he was diverted, like the Saints and God.—Yes; but is it not to be happy to have a faculty of being amused by diversion?—No; for that comes from elsewhere and from without, and thus is dependent, and therefore subject to be disturbed by a thousand accidents, which bring inevitable griefs.

171
Misery.—The only thing which consoles us for our miseries is diversion, and yet this it the greatest of our miseries. For it is this which principally hinders us from reflecting upon ourselves, and which makes us insensibly ruin ourselves. Without this we should be in a state of weariness, and this weariness would spur us to seek a more solid means of escaping from it. But diversion amuses us, and leads us unconsciously to death.
*USEFUL*
 

PearlSeeker

Well-Known Member
Placebos are real medicine. They simply help us to employ our own inner healing mechanisms. The power of religion to heal isn't in the church, or in the words of a holy book, or even in the act of praying. It's in the spirit within us, and in it's ability to change us physically and mentally. And religion (churches, dictrines, prayers, rituals, etc.) can help us to awaken that spirit of positive changen within. If we are willing.
What is really in effect is the power of faith and brain. But in the placebo effect we are always tricked to believe it's something else. We are duped to think that the pil contains some active substance. If someone said you can ease the pain directly with your brain-body connection it wouldn't work.
 

PureX

Veteran Member
What is really in effect is the power of faith and brain. But in the placebo effect we are always tricked to believe it's something else. We are duped to think that the pil contains some active substance. If someone said you can ease the pain directly with your brain-body connection it wouldn't work.
It wouldn't work because we wouldn't believe it. Interesting, that.
 

PureX

Veteran Member
What could be more worthwhile and productive than the search for truth, even if the truth remains elusive?
The pursuit of honesty.

We will never know the truth as that would require omniscience. But we can be honest about what we think we know, and about the ever-present possibility that we could be wrong.
 

RestlessSoul

Well-Known Member
The pursuit of honesty.

We will never know the truth as that would require omniscience. But we can be honest about what we think we know, and about the ever-present possibility that we could be wrong.


What about those truths that we hold to be self-evident? Can we never know them either?
 
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