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Featured If prophecy or seeing the future were true... think about it...

Discussion in 'Science and Religion' started by Dell, Sep 27, 2018.

  1. Dell

    Dell Asteroid insurance?

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    Assuming there were such a thing as seeing into the future or knowing future events (not predicting)...
    1. If true, it would indicate the future has already happened. Then are we repeating it? In terminator voice... "I'll be back"... "I'll be back"... "I'll be back"...
    2. Or the future is predestined or scripted and free will is an illusion? Then are we in a programmed simulation, a virtual reality were anything is possible?
    3. Also if seeing the future is possible, then shouldnt seeing the past be as possible? When have you ever heard of prophets doing that?
    Reality would dictate that prophecies in the Bible that seem fulfilled, i.e. in the book of Daniel, were written after the fact. We know the prophecy of the destruction of Jerusalem by Jesus was written decades after he was presumed to have said it. More likely Jesus never said it but it was written that way in manuscripts after 70 a.d.
     
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  2. Axe Elf

    Axe Elf Prophet

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    1. The past, present and future has eternally happened, is eternally happening, and will eternally happen just as it was created to happen.

    2. This is what the Bible tells us, that the future is as fixed as the past and that free will is an illusion. But no, it is not a simulation, it IS reality--a reality where nothing that does not happen can possibly happen.

    3. Every time you watch a movie, you are seeing the past. Seeing the past doesn't make news, so you don't hear about people doing it.
     
  3. nPeace

    nPeace Well-Known Member

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    Oh? How do you know this?
     
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  4. nPeace

    nPeace Well-Known Member

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    Oh? Where does the Bible tell us this?
     
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  5. Axe Elf

    Axe Elf Prophet

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    Since a man's days are already determined, and the number of his months is wholly in Your control, and he cannot pass the bounds of his allotted time --Job 14:5

    Blessed (happy, fortunate, to be envied) is the man whom You choose and cause to come near, that he may dwell in Your courts! --Psalm 65:4a

    Your eyes saw my unformed substance, and in Your book all the days [of my life] were written before ever they took shape, when as yet there was none of them. --Psalm 139:16

    The Lord has made everything [to accommodate itself and contribute] to its own end and His own purpose--even the wicked [are fitted for their role] for the day of calamity and evil. --Proverbs 16:4

    A man's mind plans his way, but the Lord directs his steps and makes them sure. --Proverbs 16:9

    The lot is cast into the lap, but the decision is wholly of the Lord [even the events that seem accidental are really ordered by Him]. --Proverbs 16:33

    Many plans are in a man's mind, but it is the Lord's purpose for him that will stand. --Proverbs 19:21

    Man's steps are ordered by the Lord. How then can a man understand his way? --Proverbs 20:24

    The King’s heart is in the hand of the Lord, as are the watercourses; He turns it whichever way He wills. --Proverbs 21:1

    Before I formed you in the womb I knew [and] approved of you [as My chosen instrument], and before you were born I separated and set you apart, consecrating you; [and] I appointed you as a prophet to the nations. --Jeremiah 1:5

    O Lord [pleads Jeremiah in the name of the people], I know that [the determination of] the way of a man is not in himself; it is not in man [even in a strong man or in a man at his best] to direct his [own] steps. --Jeremiah 10:23

    All whom My Father gives (entrusts) to Me will come to Me; and the one who comes to Me I will most certainly not cast out [I will never, no never, reject one of them who comes to Me]. --John 6:37

    No one is able to come to Me unless the Father Who sent Me attracts and draws him and gives him the desire to come to Me, and [then] I will raise him up [from the dead] at the last day. --John 6:44

    And He said, This is why I told you that no one can come to Me unless it is granted him [unless he is enabled to do so] by the Father. --John 6:65

    This Jesus, when delivered up according to the definite and fixed purpose and settled plan and foreknowledge of God, you crucified and put out of the way [killing Him] by the hands of lawless and wicked men. --Acts 2:23

    For in this city there actually met and plotted together against Your holy Child and Servant Jesus, Whom You consecrated by anointing, both Herod and Pontius Pilate with the Gentiles and peoples of Israel, to carry out all that Your hand and Your will and purpose had predestined (predetermined) should occur. --Acts 4:27-28

    And when the Gentiles heard this, they rejoiced and glorified (praised and gave thanks for) the Word of God; and as many as were destined (appointed and ordained) to eternal life believed (adhered to, trusted in, and relied on Jesus as the Christ and their Savior). --Acts 13:48

    And He made from one [common origin, one source, one blood] all nations of men to settle on the face of the earth, having definitely determined [their] allotted periods of time and the fixed boundaries of their habitation (their settlements, lands, and abodes), --Acts 17:26

    For I do not understand my own actions [I am baffled, bewildered]. I do not practice or accomplish what I wish, but I do the very thing that I loathe [which my moral instinct condemns]. Now if I do [habitually] what is contrary to my desire, [that means that] I acknowledge and agree that the Law is good (morally excellent) and that I take sides with it. However, it is no longer I who do the deed, but the sin [principle] which is at home in me and has possession of me. For I know that nothing good dwells within me, that is, in my flesh. I can will what is right, but I cannot perform it. [I have the intention and urge to do what is right, but no power to carry it out.] For I fail to practice the good deeds I desire to do, but the evil deeds that I do not desire to do are what I am [ever] doing. Now if I do what I do not desire to do, it is no longer I doing it [it is not myself that acts], but the sin [principle] which dwells within me [fixed and operating in my soul]. So I find it to be a law (rule of action of my being) that when I want to do what is right and good, evil is ever present with me and I am subject to its insistent demands. For I endorse and delight in the Law of God in my inmost self [with my new nature]. But I discern in my bodily members [in the sensitive appetites and wills of the flesh] a different law (rule of action) at war against the law of my mind (my reason) and making me a prisoner to the law of sin that dwells in my bodily organs [in the sensitive appetites and wills of the flesh]. O unhappy and pitiable and wretched man that I am! Who will release and deliver me from [the shackles of] this body of death? O thank God! [He will!] through Jesus Christ (the Anointed One) our Lord! So then indeed I, of myself with the mind and heart, serve the Law of God, but with the flesh the law of sin. --Romans 7:15-25

    We are assured and know that [God being a partner in their labor] all things work together and are [fitting into a plan] for good to and for those who love God and are called according to [His] design and purpose. For those whom He foreknew [of whom He was aware and loved beforehand], He also destined from the beginning [foreordaining them] to be molded into the image of His Son [and share inwardly His likeness], that He might become the firstborn among many brethren. And those whom He thus foreordained, He also called; and those whom He called, He also justified (acquitted, made righteous, putting them into right standing with Himself). And those whom He justified, He also glorified [raising them to a heavenly dignity and condition or state of being]. --Romans 8:28-30

    And not only that, but this too: Rebecca conceived [two sons under exactly the same circumstances] by our forefather Isaac, and the children were yet unborn and had so far done nothing either good or evil. Even so, in order further to carry out God's purpose of selection (election, choice), which depends not on works or what men can do, but on Him Who calls [them], it was said to her that the elder [son] should serve the younger [son]. As it is written, Jacob have I loved, but Esau have I hated (held in relative disregard in comparison with My feeling for Jacob). What shall we conclude then? Is there injustice upon God's part? Certainly not! For He says to Moses, I will have mercy on whom I will have mercy and I will have compassion (pity) on whom I will have compassion. So then [God's gift] is not a question of human will and human effort, but of God's mercy. [It depends not on one's own willingness nor on his strenuous exertion as in running a race, but on God's having mercy on him.] For the Scripture says to Pharaoh, I have raised you up for this very purpose of displaying My power in [dealing with] you, so that My name may be proclaimed the whole world over. So then He has mercy on whomever He wills (chooses) and He hardens (makes stubborn and unyielding the heart of) whomever He wills. You will say to me, Why then does He still find fault and blame us [for sinning]? For who can resist and withstand His will? But who are you, a mere man, to criticize and contradict and answer back to God? Will what is formed say to him that formed it, Why have you made me thus? Has the potter no right over the clay, to make out of the same mass (lump) one vessel for beauty and distinction and honorable use, and another for menial or ignoble and dishonorable use? --Romans 9:10-21

    What then [shall we conclude]? Israel failed to obtain what it sought [God's favor by obedience to the Law]. Only the elect (those chosen few) obtained it, while the rest of them became callously indifferent (blinded, hardened, and made insensible to it). As it is written, God gave them a spirit (an attitude) of stupor, eyes that should not see and ears that should not hear, [that has continued] down to this very day. --Romans 11:7-8

    But when He, Who had chosen and set me apart [even] before I was born and had called me by His grace (His undeserved favor and blessing), saw fit and was pleased --Galations 1:15

    Even as [in His love] He chose us [actually picked us out for Himself as His own] in Christ before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy (consecrated and set apart for Him) and blameless in His sight, even above reproach, before Him in love. For He foreordained us (destined us, planned in love for us) to be adopted (revealed) as His own children through Jesus Christ, in accordance with the purpose of His will [because it pleased Him and was His kind intent] --Ephesians 1:4-5

    [He planned] for the maturity of the times and the climax of the ages to unify all things and head them up and consummate them in Christ, [both] things in heaven and things on the earth. In Him we also were made [God's] heritage (portion) and we obtained an inheritance; for we had been foreordained (chosen and appointed beforehand) in accordance with His purpose, Who works out everything in agreement with the counsel and design of His [own] will, --Ephesians 1:10-11

    For we are God's [own] handiwork (His workmanship), recreated in Christ Jesus, [born anew] that we may do those good works which God predestined (planned beforehand) for us [taking paths which He prepared ahead of time], that we should walk in them [living the good life which He prearranged and made ready for us to live]. --Ephesians 2:10

    [Not in your own strength] for it is God Who is all the while effectually at work in you [energizing and creating in you the power and desire], both to will and to work for His good pleasure and satisfaction and delight. --Phillippians 2:13

    Therefore God sends upon them a misleading influence, a working of error and a strong delusion to make them believe what is false, in order that all may be judged and condemned who did not believe in [who refused to adhere to, trust in, and rely on] the Truth, but [instead] took pleasure in unrighteousness. But we, brethren beloved by the Lord, ought and are obligated [as those who are in debt] to give thanks always to God for you, because God chose you from the beginning as His firstfruits (first converts) for salvation through the sanctifying work of the [Holy] Spirit and [your] belief in (adherence to, trust in, and reliance on) the Truth. --2 Thessalonians 2:11-13

    For [of course] every house is built and furnished by someone, but the Builder of all things and the Furnisher [of the entire equipment of all things] is God. --Hebrews 3:4

    It is true that He was chosen and foreordained (destined and foreknown for it) before the foundation of the world, but He was brought out to public view (made manifest) in these last days (at the end of the times) for the sake of you. --1 Peter 1:20

    And all the inhabitants of the earth will fall down in adoration and pay him homage, everyone whose name has not been recorded in the Book of Life of the Lamb that was slain [in sacrifice] from the foundation of the world. --Revelation 13:8

    The beast that you saw [once] was, but [now] is no more, and he is going to come up out of the Abyss (the bottomless pit) and proceed to go to perdition. And the inhabitants of the earth whose names have not been recorded in the Book of Life from the foundation of the world will be astonished when they look at the beast, because he [once] was, but [now] is no more, and he is [yet] to come. --Revelation 17:8

    (All citations from the Amplified Bible.)
     
  6. Hockeycowboy

    Hockeycowboy Well-Known Member
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    I was just gonna ask you which version. It sounded like the Amplified! I have one, but I rarely use it.

    Thanks for providing the name. I hope you use others, too
     
  7. Sanzbir

    Sanzbir Well-Known Member

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    Foreknowledge of a future event does not imply the predictor is controlling that event, which should be obvious if you think about it.

    I will now give you a prophecy to prove it: "THE SUN WILL RISE TOMORROW". Now let's examine your questions in light of my prophecy.

    Has the sun already risen tomorrow just because I accurately predicted today that it would?? Nope. So a prediction of the future doesn't mean it already happened. Are we repeating anything then?? Nope.

    Now with predestination, does my accurate prediction mean that there is no free will?? Nope. I am not controlling the sun to rise tomorrow just by predicting its rise. I'm just predicting it's movements based on informed knowledge on the subject. So why would prophecy be any different??

    Are we a programmed simulation? No. But seriously I don't have the time to get into that can of worms right now. I can be triggered into giving lengthy spiels explaining why, from a computer science perspective, that idea is complete nonsense. But there's no reason I need to subject you to that right now...

    Uhh, sure. "The Sun Rose Yesterday". Done.

    Yeah... I mean Muhammad told about the life of Jesus, Moses, and Abraham, is that not a prophecy of past events??

    Also isn't the entire Mormon religion predicated on a prophet seeing past events??
     
  8. Audie

    Audie Veteran Member

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    Another big prob is the reversal of cause and effect.
     
  9. Audie

    Audie Veteran Member

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    Coz the bible tells me so has zero credibility with
    people outside the cult.

    and on #3, that is not seeing the past.
     
  10. Audie

    Audie Veteran Member

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    That the Romans were gonna bust up a rebellious country
    dont take a Prophecy from God.
     
  11. nPeace

    nPeace Well-Known Member

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    The Bible says
    Job 14:5 Since his days are determined and the number of his months is with You, and since You have set limits that he cannot exceed,
    If we allow the Bible to interpret itself - speak for itself, that is - I think it will help us come to the correct conclusion.

    The Psalmist spoke about the measure/number/length of his days, and how short it is, as is often mentioned in scripture, as well as hope that rests with God.
    Psalm 39:4-7
    4 “Show me, O LORD, my end and the measure of my days. Let me know how fleeting my life is. 5 You, indeed, have made my days as handbreadths, and my lifetime as nothing before You. Truly each man at his best exists as but a breath. 6 Surely every man goes about like a phantom; surely he bustles in vain; he heaps up riches not knowing who will haul them away. 7 Now, Lord, for what do I wait? My hope is in You.

    Job too, recognized man's short lifespan, and that any hope of future life rests with God. Job 14:7-15
    It is worthy of note that in verse 5, Job does not say that man's future is mapped out - that everything he does is scripted. He speaks only of the number/length of days/months.

    That seems to be in harmony with these texts...
    Ecclesiastes 7:17 Do not be excessively wicked, and do not be a fool. Why should you die before your time?
    Do not be excessively wicked, and do not be a fool. Why should you die before your time?
    Proverbs 10:27 The fear of the LORD prolongs life, but the years of the wicked will be shortened.
    The fear of the LORD prolongs life, but the years of the wicked will be shortened.
    Psalm 55:23 But You, O God, will bring them down to the Pit of destruction; men of bloodshed and deceit will not live out half their days. But I will trust in You.
    ...men of bloodshed and deceit will not live out half their days. But I will trust in You.
    Psalm 90:10 The length of our days is seventy years--or eighty if we are strong--yet their pride is but labor and sorrow, for they quickly pass, and we fly away.
    The length of our days is seventy years - or eighty if we are strong - yet their pride is but labor and sorrow, for they quickly pass, and we fly away.

    The Bible evidently thus conclusively inform us that the lifespan of man is short, and there are limits to it that cannot be exceeded. This is evident.

    The Bible says...
    Psalm 139:16 Your eyes saw my unformed body; all my days were written in Your book and ordained for me before one of them came to be.
    Psalm 139:16 speaks of days, appointed. Obviously, again man's lifespan would be known by his maker - not a marked off day, but a limited short lifespan.

    The Bible says...
    Proverbs 16:33 The lot is cast into the lap, but its every decision is from the LORD.
    This is true. When those in Israel cast lots, they looked to God as the one who made the decision.
    Joshua 18:6-11; 1 Samuel 14:41, 42

    Others besides the Israelites cast lots. Were all the decisions made by God?
    John 19:23, 24
    23 When the soldiers had crucified Jesus, they divided His garments into four parts, one for each soldier, with the tunic remaining. It was seamless, woven in one piece from top to bottom.
    24
    So they said to one another, “Let us not tear it. Instead, let us cast lots to see who will get it.” This was to fulfill the Scripture: “They divided My garments among them, and cast lots for My clothing.” So that is what the soldiers did.

    Do we take Proverbs 16:33 to answer yes?
    Did God make the decision for those Roman soldiers?
    The scriptures indicate no, because decisions were not always God's.
    Job 6:26-29
    26 Do you mean to correct what I say, and treat my desperate words as wind? 27 You would even cast lots for the fatherless and barter away your friend. 28 “But now be so kind as to look at me. Would I lie to your face?
    29 Relent, do not be unjust; reconsider, for my integrity is at stake.

    Joel 3:3 They cast lots for my people and traded boys for prostitutes; they sold girls for wine to drink.
    Malachi 3:5; Obadiah 10-15

    The same applies to...
    ...cont'.
     
  12. nPeace

    nPeace Well-Known Member

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    At this point I would like to ask... (I will address the rest of your post,) but I just have to ask. Are you suggesting that man does not make his own decisions, that God controls his decisions, and even planted every decision he will make within him?

    Hundreds of scriptures do not support that thinking
    . Consider just a few.
    Deuteronomy 30:17-20
    17 But if thy heart turn away, and thou wilt not hear, but shalt be drawn away, and worship other gods, and serve them; 18 I denounce unto you this day, that ye shall surely perish; ye shall not prolong your days in the land, whither thou passest over the Jordan to go in to possess it. 19 I call heaven and earth to witness against you this day, that I have set before thee life and death, the blessing and the curse: therefore choose life, that thou mayest live, thou and thy seed; 20 to love Jehovah thy God, to obey his voice, and to cleave unto him; for he is thy life, and the length of thy days; that thou mayest dwell in the land which Jehovah sware unto thy fathers, to Abraham, to Isaac, and to Jacob, to give them.

    Deuteronomy 31:27 For I know how rebellious and stubborn you are. Behold, even today while I am yet alive with you, you have been rebellious against the LORD. How much more after my death!

    Deuteronomy 32:5 They have corrupted themselves, their spot is not the spot of his children: they are a perverse and crooked generation.

    Psalms 14:1 For the choir director: A psalm of David. Only fools say in their hearts, "There is no God." They are corrupt, and their actions are evil; not one of them does good!

    Exekiel 18:
    19 Yet say ye, Wherefore doth not the son bear the iniquity of the father? When the son hath done that which is lawful and right, and hath kept all my statutes, and hath done them, he shall surely live. 20 The soul that sinneth, it shall die: the son shall not bear the iniquity of the father, neither shall the father bear the iniquity of the son; the righteousness of the righteous shall be upon him, and the wickedness of the wicked shall be upon him.
    21 But if the wicked turn from all his sins that he hath committed, and keep all my statutes, and do that which is lawful and right, he shall surely live, he shall not die. 22 None of his transgressions that he hath committed shall be remembered against him: in his righteousness that he hath done he shall live. 23 Have I any pleasure in the death of the wicked? saith the Lord Jehovah; and not rather that he should return from his way, and live? 24 But when the righteous turneth away from his righteousness, and committeth iniquity, and doeth according to all the abominations that the wicked man doeth, shall he live? None of his righteous deeds that he hath done shall be remembered: in his trespass that he hath trespassed, and in his sin that he hath sinned, in them shall he die.
    25 Yet ye say, The way of the Lord is not equal. Hear now, O house of Israel: Is not my way equal? are not your ways unequal? 26 When the righteous man turneth away from his righteousness, and committeth iniquity, and dieth therein; in his iniquity that he hath done shall he die. 27 Again, when the wicked man turneth away from his wickedness that he hath committed, and doeth that which is lawful and right, he shall save his soul alive. 28 Because he considereth, and turneth away from all his transgressions that he hath committed, he shall surely live, he shall not die. 29 Yet saith the house of Israel, The way of the Lord is not equal. O house of Israel, are not my ways equal? are not your ways unequal? 30 Therefore I will judge you, O house of Israel, every one according to his ways, saith the Lord Jehovah. Return ye, and turn yourselves from all your transgressions; so iniquity shall not be your ruin. 31 Cast away from you all your transgressions, wherein ye have transgressed; and make you a new heart and a new spirit: for why will ye die, O house of Israel? 32 For I have no pleasure in the death of him that dieth, saith the Lord Jehovah: wherefore turn yourselves, and live.

    I also feel I must ask this.
    Do you believe the Bible contains scripture inspired by God as stated in 2 Timothy 3:16?
    16 Everything in the Scriptures is God’s Word. All of it is useful for teaching and helping people and for correcting them and showing them how to live. 17 The Scriptures train God’s servants to do all kinds of good deeds.

    Is this what you study in order to know about God, or do you get your teachings from somewhere else?
    I ask this because I can't imagine how one can read about a father pleading to his children to listen to him, and obey his voice, and open the way for them to repent and return to him, and he will forget their wayward course...
    I can't see how one can read a book where that is covered throughout, and then come up with the concept that the children has no choice, because the father programed them to do exactly what they did. [​IMG]
     
  13. Twilight Hue

    Twilight Hue Twilight, not bright nor dark, good nor bad.

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    That's the way they do it. "0)

    That way they can claim that the person before had made an accurate prophecy. You just change the narrative to make it true down the line pretty simple.

    Of course if someone has a low standard of believability.....
     
  14. nPeace

    nPeace Well-Known Member

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    In one sense, but not exactly. If one knows future events, - in this case God, since he is the only one capable of doing so - it would indicate that in the mind of that one - the predictor... God, future events has indeed occurred.
    That's why even before Jesus' death, God could forgive sins, declare persons righteous, and bring them into a relationship with him, as his children, and they can be sure of the future. Their hope is therefore an anchor, in these turbulent seas.
    God however has no reason to look into the future - in its entirety. He knows what he is doing, and what he wills, and therefore there is nothing that can stop his will taking place, even if he has to adjust to meet opposing actions, which do take place.

    No. We are not repeating it, because every event may not have been predicted, or foreseen.
    For example, if one foresaw an event that involved a car crash, they may see the car, and the events surrounding the crash, but they may not foresee exactly who drove the car, or what spectators would say or do, or other events in detail.
    Also, what is foreseen is in the mind of the one seeing it. It's not an actual event.

    No. As stated above, all the details are not foreseen.
    Another example.
    The creator foretold the sacrifice of his son, which was the important detail he was concerned about. he foresaw the events surrounding this, but he chose not to see other details - like who exactly would be involved, or what his adversary the Devil would have cooking up his sleeve, or what actions he would take.
    This is because as almighty, God does not have to fear what enemies or his opposer does, because all he has to do, is use his power to make certain that his will takes place. Easy as Squeezy.

    God sees, both past and future, but there is no need to reveal the past to his messengers. he already had it recorded.

    This is not reality.
    Reality is that the writers of the Bible wrote down honestly what they knew, and Matthew, and Luke recorded, what their Lord said to them, about the destruction of Jerusalem by the Romans, in the first century. The evidence suggests that this occurred after these writings were completed.
     
    #14 nPeace, Sep 28, 2018
    Last edited: Sep 28, 2018
  15. nPeace

    nPeace Well-Known Member

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    Of course "people believe what they want to believe". That can apply to everyone, unless proven otherwise.
     
    #15 nPeace, Sep 28, 2018
    Last edited: Sep 28, 2018
  16. Axe Elf

    Axe Elf Prophet

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    I use the Amplified and an Interlinear for understanding, but if I'm going to be reading aloud, I'll use a version that sacrifices the shades of meaning for rolling more trippingly off the tongue.
     
  17. Axe Elf

    Axe Elf Prophet

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    Surely you can understand that the Bible was not used as an authority here, but as a seconding of the OP's hypotheses that the future is predestined or scripted and that free will is an illusion. It's not intended to prove a conclusion, it's just evidence that other people have felt the same way.

    Opinions vary.
     
  18. Axe Elf

    Axe Elf Prophet

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    I'm always amazed at the lengths to which people will go to demonstrate that the Bible doesn't say what it clearly says, when they don't agree with what it clearly says.

    No, I'm not suggesting that. I'm agreeing with the passages in the Bible which explicitly state that.

    Yes.

    The Bible is one way to learn about God. The rest of His creation offers insights as well. And of course as a prophet, I am subject to direct understanding by way of insight that wasn't necessarily "learned" (or "taught") anywhere.

    I don't see a lot of pleading or begging on God's part. I see a lot more explaining as to why He created the wicked the way that He did, and the righteous the way that He did, and why sometimes those that appear to be one turn out to be the other, and even how He sometimes wishes that He hadn't had to create some for destruction--but not so much trying to convince anyone He created one way to be any other way than the way they were created.

    Now yes, the Bible was written to be understood by people God created to be at every level of understanding, so while there is ample Biblical evidence that God created all of time when He created all of space (supported by the scientific evidence that space and time are merely two aspects of the same thing), there are also passages in the Bible that speak to those who were created with an understanding that cannot transcend the illusion of free will--so these passages use language that allow those of limited understanding to rest comfortably in that illusion, rather than challenging them to understand something they were not created to understand in the first place.

    It has always amused me, however, how many of these people will readily assert that "God is in control of everything!" and then turn around in pride and add, "...except ME!"
     
  19. nPeace

    nPeace Well-Known Member

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    Both amused and amazed huh? :smirk:
    May I remind you what you said.
    Where is that in the Bible?

    No texts says that the future is fixed.
    No texts says that free will is an illusion.

    None of the texts you presented says it, so how much gymnastics is required, and how far do you think one needs to go to support that idea?
     
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  20. Axe Elf

    Axe Elf Prophet

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