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If no god exists does the concept become meaningless

Lirille

Member
What about those people who are happy doing evil and find peace in happiness in that, too their own destruction. Won't you try to convince them to change their ways and be saved though they hate and despise you for it? Jesus said "Even the hypocrites love those who love them back"
It is my belief that no one is truly happy doing evil. One may feel a temporary high, like a drug high, but it doesn't bring them long-lasting happiness, or contentment. You don't need to convince anyone of that, because the person will eventually come to that conclusion on their own. You may try to expedite things by giving them information, but, in the end, they need to realize it for themselves.
 

Kemosloby

Well-Known Member
Premium Member
It is my belief that no one is truly happy doing evil. One may feel a temporary high, like a drug high, but it doesn't bring them long-lasting happiness, or contentment. You don't need to convince anyone of that, because the person will eventually come to that conclusion on their own. You may try to expedite things by giving them information, but, in the end, they need to realize it for themselves.

Why? why in the end do they need to realize it if the end is the end?

Seems to me you already know the end is not the end so you do good.
 

Fool

ALL in all
Premium Member
I of course argue no on this topic but I wish to hear other opinions.

If it is undoubtedly proven that no god possible exists would it make the concept of a god pointless in your own life?

So many religions are founded upon the realness of god or gods; their existence becomes the pivotal message of that religion. Monotheistic religion instead teach that only their god is existent and real and reject or deny the existence of other deities.
Yet if a religion promoted the absurdity of a god's existence and is simultaneous importance would that be a proper message to you?

Obviously their are Pagan atheists who understand this along with Dharmic atheists but can the same be said about Islam, Christianity or other religions?

Would there still be prayer, ceremony, worship and ritual? If so how are they useful if the existence of these deities are deemed false

for god not to exist would basically mean nothing would be the norm because god to some is material things, for example, money, material assets, sex, food, knowledge, idolizing someone et al.
 

Lirille

Member
Why? why in the end do they need to realize it if the end is the end?
I didn't mean to say they must realize it or else they're doomed. I meant that, ultimately, you cannot teach what brings another contentment, it's a personal conclusion.

Seems to me you already know the end is not the end so you do good.
You honestly cannot fathom someone who does good without believing in an afterlife?
 

McBell

Resident Sourpuss
I of course argue no on this topic but I wish to hear other opinions.

If it is undoubtedly proven that no god possible exists would it make the concept of a god pointless in your own life?

So many religions are founded upon the realness of god or gods; their existence becomes the pivotal message of that religion. Monotheistic religion instead teach that only their god is existent and real and reject or deny the existence of other deities.
Yet if a religion promoted the absurdity of a god's existence and is simultaneous importance would that be a proper message to you?

Obviously their are Pagan atheists who understand this along with Dharmic atheists but can the same be said about Islam, Christianity or other religions?

Would there still be prayer, ceremony, worship and ritual? If so how are they useful if the existence of these deities are deemed false
It isn't gods existence that is meaningful.
It is the BELIEF of gods existence that has the meaning.
I have lost track of the number of members who have flat out said that the only reason they do not kill, rape, steal, etc. is because they fear punishment from a god they believe exists.
 

Valjean

Veteran Member
Premium Member
Just as people vary physically, we vary even more psychologically. Social capacities, empathy, altruism, &c vary. Some people are incapable of being motivated, or even seeing, the Big Picture.

One function of religion is social control -- by invisible carrot and stick; a sort of Princess Alice effect.
Some people need this. They cannot control themselves. They have no internalized morality. They believe a crutch in the form of an external list of do's and don'ts defines morality and that, like themselves, others are incapable of behaving responsibly without coercion and a written moral code.
Such people can't understand how people without religion could be trusted to behave responsibly. They assume those with a higher level of moral development must, like themselves, rely on a crutch to remain upright.
Perhaps you are sinless then and will get by on your own good deeds. Jesus came to save sinners though, not everyone is so lucky as you to be so righteous. But if it all ends the same and there is no resurrection of the dead, well what's the difference...
Pascalian (?) nonsense.
 

Lirille

Member
Just as people vary physically, we vary even more psychologically. Social capacities, empathy, altruism, &c vary. Some people are incapable of being motivated, or even seeing, the Big Picture.

One function of religion is social control -- by invisible carrot and stick; a sort of Princess Alice effect.
Some people need this. They cannot control themselves. They have no internalized morality. They believe a crutch in the form of an external list of do's and don'ts defines morality and that, like themselves, others are incapable of behaving responsibly without coercion and a written moral code.
Such people can't understand how people without religion could be trusted to behave responsibly. They assume those with a higher level of moral development must, like themselves, rely on a crutch to remain upright.
I wonder how much of this variation is due to innate traits, and how much is due to upbringing.
 

Valjean

Veteran Member
Premium Member
Good question, Lirille. Until neurologists weighed in, with MRIs, chemical and other mapping technologies, psychologists and sociologists approached it as a primarily nurture problem:
Dear kindly Sergeant Krupke, you gotta understand
It's just our bringing up-ke, that gets us out of hand
Our mothers all are junkies, our fathers all are drunks.
Golly Moses, natcherly we're punks!
-- Gee Officer Krupke. West Side Story. Steven Sondheim.

Now it's looking like there's a much stronger neurological component than was previously assumed. Political or sexual orientations show up on brain scans as anatomical or "wiring" variations.
Liberals and conservatives, religious and secular, gay and straight; are different creatures.
 
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Quintessence

Consults with Trees
Staff member
Premium Member
If it is undoubtedly proven that no god possible exists would it make the concept of a god pointless in your own life?

That would certainly be a most paradoxical situation. Doing this with respect to my own theology would mean undoubtedly proving that everything does not exist. And yet, if everything does not exist, there would be no mechanism upon which to prove anything, much less a "me" existing to be responding to this question. :shrug:
 

ThePainefulTruth

Romantic-Cynic
I of course argue no on this topic but I wish to hear other opinions.

If it is undoubtedly proven that no god possible exists would it make the concept of a god pointless in your own life?

So many religions are founded upon the realness of god or gods; their existence becomes the pivotal message of that religion. Monotheistic religion instead teach that only their god is existent and real and reject or deny the existence of other deities.
Yet if a religion promoted the absurdity of a god's existence and is simultaneous importance would that be a proper message to you?

Obviously their are Pagan atheists who understand this along with Dharmic atheists but can the same be said about Islam, Christianity or other religions?

Would there still be prayer, ceremony, worship and ritual? If so how are they useful if the existence of these deities are deemed false

If it was undoubtedly proven that there was no God possible, then what would it mean to keep the concept, have prayer, ceremony, worship and ritual to a vacuum--ritual for the pure sake of ritual???

There are many things we relate to as gods: money, power, sex, drugs, fun, love, justice, knowledge, beauty and fulfillment. The question is, is there a conscious, essentially omnipotent God? The answer is a big fat absolute complete lack of evidence. So in the absence of said lack, I've proposed that we worship the ultimate possible goal in this life, the pursuit of Truth with its aspects which I listed last above--knowledge, justice, love and beauty...from the objective Truth thru to the subjective Truth. Therefore, with our compass pointed at Truth, we will be headed in the right direction no matter which answer is correct.

God is Truth. Truth is God. It's all we need to remember.
 

Baroodi

Active Member
This universe can not be functioning in this amazing harmony without a controller(this controller and founder is God). Man created the car and he needs to be looking after it by maintainance to keep it rolling. Every thing in this world is wearing and tearing, if there is no maintainer it must expire then. And it is only one omnipotent God, not 2 or 3. Simply because 2 captains would drown a ship.
 

Sha'irullah

رسول الآلهة
Concepts of gods, plural. There isn't one single concept of a god.


Prayer and worship: some religious traditions have prayers and worship directed toward ancestors who aren't considered gods per se; apart from that sort of thing, yeah: prayer and worship would be pretty pointless.

I don't follow you on ceremony or ritual, though. Are you seriously suggesting you see no reason for these things without theism?

I stated at the very beginning that I find ritual and ceremony valid without theism and more so valid in any case. I find worship valid although prayer is rather pointless and silly.
Worship and ritual are a selfless act that solidifies the mind and allows one to engage in reaffirmation of desires or concepts.

Take for example the combined worship and ritualism of Islamic prayer known as salat. It heavily solidifies the mind on a deity and it was the main reason why it took my longer to leave the religion. Mental fortitude is very pivotal.
 

Kemosloby

Well-Known Member
Premium Member
That's a whole lot like saying sex is pointless unless it goes on for eternity. Good luck convincing people of that one.

That doubles the point that the benefit of religion is in the afterlife, since it advises people to refrain from things they might like to do.
 

Milton Platt

Well-Known Member
I of course argue no on this topic but I wish to hear other opinions.

If it is undoubtedly proven that no god possible exists would it make the concept of a god pointless in your own life?

So many religions are founded upon the realness of god or gods; their existence becomes the pivotal message of that religion. Monotheistic religion instead teach that only their god is existent and real and reject or deny the existence of other deities.
Yet if a religion promoted the absurdity of a god's existence and is simultaneous importance would that be a proper message to you?

Obviously their are Pagan atheists who understand this along with Dharmic atheists but can the same be said about Islam, Christianity or other religions?

Would there still be prayer, ceremony, worship and ritual? If so how are they useful if the existence of these deities are deemed false

All of the gods have been meaningless to me most all of my life......so nothing would change for me.
 

Kapalika

Well-Known Member
Premium Member
Form a Baha'i perspective God is unknowable, but not non-existent. We can know Him through His Manifestations or the Great Teachers of the world religions. In this way He intervenes in the affairs of humanity and provides us with the means through which we can know and worship Him. He can provide assistance for us personally too for "Thou art more friend to me, than I am to myself".

Honest question but how can his teachers know him to talk/teach about him if he's unknowable? And if he is unknowable how can one know he exists? And if he chooses to be knowable to the teachers why does he do this in a way that makes conflicting religions? Why can't one cut out the middle man and know him directly? Otherwise it's like one big telephone game.
 

Dawnofhope

Non-Proselytizing Baha'i
Staff member
Premium Member
Honest question but how can his teachers know him to talk/teach about him if he's unknowable? And if he is unknowable how can one know he exists? And if he chooses to be knowable to the teachers why does he do this in a way that makes conflicting religions? Why can't one cut out the middle man and know him directly? Otherwise it's like one big telephone game.

I appreciate the sincerity in your question. I provide a Baha'i perspective. We can know God because He manifests Himself or makes Himself known through great educators such as Krishna, Moses, Buddha, Christ, Muhammad, and more recently Baha'u'llah. Through the enormous influence that these teachers have on the hearts and minds of their followers, morals are transformed, the intellectual life is stimulated, the arts are promoted, and great civilisations develop. The life and teachings of these founders of can be known, whereas God simply can't (that's another topic). However each message of this transcendent Being is revealed to a particular people and time using the language, ideas and symbols of those people. Eventually as time passes religion becomes like a tree that although once bore abundant fruit, becomes aged. It becomes harder and harder to understand the original message because the original language, ideas, and symbols becomes harder to understand, especially unfamiliar cultures. Furthermore there are two types of teachings, one universal and the other transient and only relevant for that age.

Here's some reading on these weighty themes from a document titled 'One common Faith'

Bahá'í Reference Library - One Common Faith

Throughout history, the primary agents of spiritual development have been the great religions. For the majority of the earth’s people, the scriptures of each of these systems of belief have served, in Bahá’u’lláh’s words, as "the City of God",a source of a knowledge that totally embraces consciousness, one so compelling as to endow the sincere with "a new eye, a new ear, a new heart, and a new mind".[8] A vast literature, to which all religious cultures have contributed, records the experience of transcendence reported by generations of seekers. Down the millennia, the lives of those who responded to intimations of the Divine have inspired breathtaking achievements in music, architecture, and the other arts, endlessly replicating the soul’s experience for millions of their fellow believers. No other force in existence has been able to elicit from people comparable qualities of heroism, self-sacrifice and self-discipline. At the social level, the resulting moral principles have repeatedly translated themselves into universal codes of law, regulating and elevating human relationships. Viewed in perspective, the major religions emerge as the primary
driving forces of the civilizing process. To argue otherwise is surely to ignore the evidence of history.


Why, then, does this immensely rich heritage not serve as the central stage for today’s reawakening of spiritual quest? On the periphery, earnest attempts are being made to reformulate the teachings that gave rise to the respective faiths, in the hope of imbuing them with new appeal, but the greater part of the search for meaning is diffused, individualistic and incoherent in character. The scriptures have not changed; the moral principles they contain have lost none of their validity. No one who sincerely poses questions to Heaven, if he persists, will fail to detect an answering voice in the Psalms or in the Upanishads. Anyone with some intimation of the Reality that transcends this material one will be touched to the heart by the words in which Jesus or Buddha speaks so intimately of it. The Qur’án’s apocalyptic visions continue to provide compelling assurance to its readers that the realization of justice is central to the Divine purpose. Nor, in their essential features, do the lives of heroes and saints seem any less meaningful than they did when those lives were lived centuries ago. For many religious people, therefore, the most painful aspect of the current crisis of civilization is that the search for truth has not turned with confidence into religion’s familiar avenues.


The problem is, of course, twofold. The rational soul does not merely occupy a private sphere, but is an active participant in a social order. Although the received truths of the great faiths remain valid, the daily experience of an individual in the twenty-first century is unimaginably removed from the one that he or she would have known in any of those ages when this guidance was revealed. Democratic decision-making has fundamentally altered the relationship of the individual to authority. With growing confidence and growing success, women justly insist on their right to full equality with men. Revolutions in science and technology change not only the functioning but the conception of society, indeed of existence itself. Universal education and an explosion of new fields of creativity open the way to insights that stimulate social mobility and integration, and create opportunities of which the rule of law encourages the citizen to take full advantage. Stem cell research, nuclear energy, sexual identity, ecological stress and the use of wealth raise, at the very least, social questions that have no precedent. These, and the countless other changes affecting every aspect of human life, have brought into being a new world of daily choices for both society and its members. What has not changed is the inescapable requirement of making such choices, whether for better or worse. It is here that the spiritual nature of the contemporary crisis comes into sharpest focus because most of the decisions called for are not merely practical but moral. In large part, therefore, loss of faith in traditional religion has been an inevitable consequence of failure to discover in it the guidance required to live with modernity, successfully and with assurance.


A second barrier to a re-emergence of inherited systems of belief as the answer to humanity’s spiritual yearnings is the effects already mentioned of global integration. Throughout the planet, people raised in a given religious frame of reference find themselves abruptly thrown into close association with others whose beliefs and practices appear at first glance irreconcilably different from their own. The differences can and often do give rise to defensiveness, simmering resentments and open conflict. In many cases, however, the effect is rather to prompt a reconsideration of received doctrine and to encourage efforts at discovering values held in common. The support enjoyed by various interfaith activities doubtless owes a great deal to response of this kind among the general public. Inevitably, with such approaches comes a questioning of religious doctrines that inhibit association and understanding. If people whose beliefs appear to be fundamentally different from one’s own nevertheless live moral lives that deserve admiration, what is it that makes one’s own faith superior to theirs? Alternatively, if all of the great religions share certain basic values in common, do not sectarian attachments run the risk of merely reinforcing unwanted barriers between an individual and his neighbours?

 

Dawnofhope

Non-Proselytizing Baha'i
Staff member
Premium Member
Honest question but how can his teachers know him to talk/teach about him if he's unknowable? And if he is unknowable how can one know he exists? And if he chooses to be knowable to the teachers why does he do this in a way that makes conflicting religions? Why can't one cut out the middle man and know him directly? Otherwise it's like one big telephone game.

In regards to God being unknowable, here are some sites that explain the Baha'i perspective:

An Unknowable God | What Bahá’ís Believe

God: Knowing An Unknowable Essence

God in the Bahá'í Faith - Wikipedia
 
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