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If Muhammad is a descendent of Ishmael did Ishmael worship Abraham’s God?

Discussion in 'Quranic Debates' started by Shibboleth, Dec 10, 2010.

  1. lotus of the leaf

    lotus of the leaf New Member

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    people making lies that muhammad never existed lmao
     
  2. Many Sages One Truth

    Many Sages One Truth Active Member

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    I would assume that Ishmael did worship Abraham's God, since Genesis says he also received the covenant and circumcision when he was 13 years old. He had at least some share in the covenant, even if Issac was the true heir of it, other he would not have been circumcised.
     
  3. Bob Dixon

    Bob Dixon >implying

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    Whoah, dude.

    What're you smoking and where can I get some?
     
  4. D-MITCH777

    D-MITCH777 Member

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    Well according to tradition Ishmael worshiped Allah/Yahweh, but that all depends on if he even existed.
     
  5. asa120

    asa120 Member

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    1 of all ishmail is not just e beliver he was e profet and e messenger of god and an arabian man and he was the one who is tested is the slaying not issac we re shure of it as we re shure that the coran didnt changes

    2 jakob and issac were just profets not friends of god only ibrahim is the friend of god it e name to sedcirbe ibrahim only
    like saying in islam jesus is the word of god and e soul from his
    like saying mohamed the leader of the profets ens the seal of the profecy
    issac inherit the profet of ibrahim and his children untill the time of zakaria and jhon and jesus the prblemes start to raide up the 2 first were killed but jesus wes saved by e miricale
    those prblems didint happens in 1 generation but throw e lot of jeneration of the children of israel
    on top of that thy change the taura and that was it for the children of israel
    then the mighty god sent mohamed from the other chidren of ibrahim
    ishmail ab arabian profet from the children of ishmail
     
    #25 asa120, Oct 13, 2011
    Last edited: Oct 13, 2011
  6. annieann

    annieann New Member

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    Friends I hav a doubt if Muhammed is the descendants of ismael then how come Mohammed parents worshipped pagans...this is my doubt..
     
  7. whirlingmerc

    whirlingmerc Well-Known Member

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    It's interesting that in the Bible the chosen has the genealogy last and in Genesis the first one born is never the 'first born heir' in order to let God's choice stand. The case if Ishmael is also seen in the case of Essau who was Jacob's slightly older twin brother and who was the preferred one by the father... yet God;s choice was Jacob so says Malachi. Malachi begins with God's love sovereignly resting on Jacob not Essau and making all the difference

    Malachi's didactic diagnosis of strong and weak loves with prognosi…
     
  8. 12jtartar

    12jtartar Active Member
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    Agree to Disagree,
    The fact is, the Bible, at Galatians 4:21-28, we have an allegory showing that true believers come through the line of Isaac through Sarah, born through a promise, and not through Ishmael, from Hagar, born in the natural way, who were the ones who persecuted the true followers of God, Jehovah, and His son, Jesus the Christ.
     
  9. Faithofchristian

    Faithofchristian Well-Known Member

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    According to what is written in the book of Genesis chapter 17:19, God told Abraham that Sarah would have a son and to call his name Isaac, God told Abraham that he would establish his covenant with Isaac for an everlasting covenant and with his seed after him.
    But as for Ishmael "I have heard you, behold, I have blessed him, and will make him fruitful, and will multiply him exceedingly, twelve princes shall be have, and I will make him a great nation"
    Genesis 17:20.

    But my covenant will I establish with Isaac.
    Genesis 17:21

    According to Genesis 21:9-21, Hagar and her son Ishmael left the house of Abraham and went to live in the land of the wilderness of Paran,which is in the land of Egypt and Hagar took Ishmael a wife out of Egypt.
    We find nothing more said about Ishmael until Abraham died, Genesis 25:8-18.

    The question being ask, Is whether Ishmael worshipped the God of his father Abraham.

    Seeing Hagar, Ishmael's mother had taken Ishmael back with her to the land of Egypt.

    We find nothing to support that Ishmael did worship the God of his father Abraham.

    But seeing Ishmael wife is a Egyptian, and that Ishmael lived in Egypt.and being part Egyptian himself.could Ishmael not went into worshipping many God's as did the Egyptians did?
    What we do know according to Genesis 25 that Ishmael died in the land of Egypt and had children in Egypt.
    According to what is written in
    Genesis 16:11-12, Ishmael descendants, would be a wild man, his hand will be against every man, and every man's hand against him, and he shall live in the presence of his brethren.
    Seeing Abraham had two sons, Ishmael and Isaac, that now even to day Ishmael's descendants and Isaac descendants live in the presence of each other.
    Seeing Ishmael's descendants to day are against every man that does not convert to Islam and every man's hand around the world is coming out against Islam because of not wanting to convert to Islam.
    This Prophecy is being fulfilled as written in Genesis 16:11-12.

    We do know by the Muslims q'uran and by their prophet Muhammad, Muslims hand are against every man and every man's hand against Muslims.
    The fault of this lays with the q'uran and their prophet Muhammad.
    That the Muslims q'uran and their prophet Muhammad has lead them astray from the God of their father's Abraham and Ishmael.

    There is no where written that Abraham or Ishmael went out killing innocent people who did not convert to worship their God
    As do their descendants ( Muslims ) to day do, all because of the Muslims q'uran and prophet Muhammad has them doing to day.

    But this was all given in Prophecy by the God of their father Abraham, that this would all happened to the descendants of Ishmael in Genesis 16:11-12.

    You as a Muslim of Islam, you really believe that your father's Abraham and Ishmael would find favor in what you do to day, Ishmael and Isaac are brethren and your hand is against your brethren Isaac to day. You really believe that your father Ishmael would accept your hand against the descendants of his brother Isaac descendants.
    As you do to day. All because of your q'uran and your prophet muhammad, that now your hand is against Ishmael's brother Isaac descendants.
    You really believe that Ishmael your father would want you to go against his brother Isaac descendants.
    No Ishmael loved his brother Isaac and his father Abraham. And in no way would your father Ishmael go out to kill his brother Isaac or his brother's Isaac descendants.
    As you do to day.
    Because of your Q'uran and prophet Muhammad has your hand against your own father's Ishmael's brother Isaac descendants.
    Do you really believe that your father Ishmael would really want you to kill his brother Isaac children to day ?
    It is written in your q'uran that Christians and Jews are infidels and are to be killed.

    Those Jews are the children of Isaac, Ishmael's brother, as are those christians to day are the children of father Abraham and Isaac.

    But your q'uran and your prophet muhammad will tell you, to go and kill your father Ishmael's brother Isaac children, which are father Abraham's grand children.

    So you believe that your father Ishmael would want you to kill his brother Isaac children and father Abraham's grand children.

    As your q'uran and prophet Muhammad tells you to do. That Jews and christians are infidels and are to be killed. Which Jews and christians are father Abraham's grand children and Isaac children. which your q'uran and prophet Muhammad tells you to kill.
     
    #29 Faithofchristian, Aug 20, 2017
    Last edited: Aug 20, 2017
  10. Faithofchristian

    Faithofchristian Well-Known Member

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    To understand, did Ishmael worship the same God as did Abraham?

    When Abraham's wife Sarah gave birth to Isaac, Ishmael mother Hagar the Egyptian took Ishmael her son and went back to Egypt which worshipped many gods

    It is written that when Ishmael had died, he was gathered unto his people Egypt. And they lived in the land of Havilah by Shur that is land of Egypt.

    Ishmael being taught about his father's God and being around those who worships many gods, and seeing Ishmael was a teenager when he and his mother left and went back to Egypt. And was there in Egypt until the day Ishmael died.

    Let's say you have been taught one thing and then when your a teenager move to another country and there till the day you die, Which God would you been worshipping?
    Most likely eventually you would go to be like those you live with?
     
  11. Faithofchristian

    Faithofchristian Well-Known Member

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    How do you prove Muhammad as a descendants of Ishmael.there is no record to confirm this.
    Only what Muhammad will say.

    That's like saying a person is the descendant of king David, how would anyone prove otherwise.

    Without any actual proof, it's all is base on what that person will say.

    Ishmael's mother Hagar left the house of Abraham and took Ishmael and went to Egypt and Ishmael was there till the day he died and was buried in Egypt.

    So it could be that Ishmael could haved worship the gods of Egypt. Seeing Ishmael was there when he was very young and till he died of an old age.

    If you go to another country.and you are say about 20 yrs old and you are there till the day you die of an old age.

    You also have a wife that is of that Country, which she holds the custom of her Country, would you not convert ?

    This is only something to think about.
     
  12. Faithofchristian

    Faithofchristian Well-Known Member

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    There is no where in the bible ( Scriptures ) of God being the God of Ishmael.

    In the book of Exodus 3:6,15. it is written that God is the God of Abraham, the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob"

    But no where Written that God as being, the God of Ishmael.
    The only reason God bless Ishmael to make his descendants a great nation, only because Ishmael was the seed ( son ) of Abraham's. Gen 21:12-13.
    That's as far as it goes.
    God establish his covenant with Isaac only.
    Gen 17:19.
    There is no where Written that God made any covenant with Ishmael.
    the God of Abraham, God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob, and that is all.

    No where Written about God as the God of Ishmael.
     
  13. Faithofchristian

    Faithofchristian Well-Known Member

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    Ishmael did not share in the same covenant with Isaac.

    The only thing that Ishmael shared in with was the circumcision and that's all.
    Gen 17:23.
    Note that also Abraham also circumcised also every male among the men of Abraham's house, does this mean these men also are of the covenant, of course not they were only circumcised.

    God told Abraham in Genesis 17:21-"But My covenant will I establish with Isaac, which Sarah shall bear unto you at this set time in the next year"

    God only establish his covenant with Isaac only. As you can see in Gen 17:21.

    Note in the book of Exodus 3:6,15.
    God saying that he is the God of Abraham, the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob"

    But no where is it Written that God as being the God of Ishmael.
     
  14. Faithofchristian

    Faithofchristian Well-Known Member

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    No Ishmael did not worship the God of Abraham, There is no where Written that God as being the God of Ishmael.

    Note in the book of Exodus 3:6,15.
    The God of Abraham, the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob.
    No where is God mention as being the God of Ishmael.

    God said in Gen 17:21, But my covenant will I establish with Isaac.

    God made no covenant with Ishmael, only with Isaac.
     
  15. Faithofchristian

    Faithofchristian Well-Known Member

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    In the thread as ask, If Muhammad is a descendant of Ishmael, did Ishmael worship Abraham's God?

    Many will say Yes, even Muslims will say Ishmael worshiped Abraham's God.

    There is no where written in the Holy Scriptures that Ishmael worshiped Abraham's God.

    In the book of Exodus 3;6,15, It is Written God saying unto Moses.
    I am the God of your father, the God of Abraham, The God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob.

    Note in Matthew 22:32- I am the God of Abraham, and the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob.

    Notice not one time is it Written I am the God of Ishmael.
    Only the God of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob.

    Notice the book of Psalm 83:6--"The tents of Edom, and the Ishmaelites of Moab and the Hagarenes"

    Notice the Ishmaelites of Moab.in the book of Zephaniah 2:8-9 " I have heard the reproach of Moab, and the revilings of the children of Ammon, whereby they have reproached my people, and magnified themselves against their border.
    Therefore as I live, saith the Lord of hosts, the God of Israel, Surely Moab shall be as Sodom, and the children of Ammon as Gomorrah, even the breeding of nettles, and saltpits, and a perpetual desolation: the residue of my people shall spoil them, and the remnant of my people shall possess them"

    The Ishmaelites being Moab, and God said Surely Moab shall be as Sodom.
    But yet back in Genesis God destroyed Sodom. For their abomination.
     
  16. Faithofchristian

    Faithofchristian Well-Known Member

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    Did Ishmael worship God of Abraham, When Ishmael was young and growing up
    Yes Ishmael worship God of Abraham.

    Then Abraham had Hagar the Egyptian take Ishmael her son and leave house of Abraham.
    Hagar the Egyptian then went back to her people Egyptians.
    Ishmael married Egyptian woman. had Egyptian children. Which are called Ishmaelites.

    Egyptian people worship many Idolatry false gods. But not God of Abraham. Worship idolatry fake gods.
    Egyptian woman caused Ishmael to worship idolatry false gods of Egypt.

    Now comes Muhammad, goes into temple of goddess Diana of Ephesians, destroys all Idolatry images of goddess Diana But takes idolatry false god black stone
    ( Meteorite ) star which fell from heaven,
    Back to Mecca and places idolatry black stone false god
    ( Meteorite ) star which fell from heaven in the East corner of the Kaaba.

    Muhammad tell people to walk around Kaaba 7 times then stop and kiss idolatry false god
    ( allah ) black stone
    ( Meteorite ) star which fell from heaven, takes away all sins and gives Salvation to those who kiss idolatry false god ( allah ) black stone
    ( Meteorite ) star which fell from heaven.

    Muslims makes pilgrimage to Mecca every year to walk around Kaaba 7 times then stop and kiss idolatry false god ( allah ) black stone
    ( Meteorite ) star which fell from heaven.
    To take away sins and gives Salvation to all those who kiss idolatry false god ( allah ) black stone
    ( Meteorite ) star which fell from heaven.

    Muhammad causes Muslims to worship idolatry false god ( allah ) black stone
    ( Meteorite ) star which fell from heaven. In Mecca in the East corner of the Kaaba.

    goddess Diana had people of Ephesians also worship idolatry false god, black stone
    ( Meteorite ) star which fell from heaven.

    Muhammad destroyed all Idolatry images of goddess Diana, But takes idolatry false god black stone
    ( Meteorite ) star which fell from heaven.
    Back to Mecca, place it in East corner of the Kaaba
    Now Muhammad got all Muslims make pilgrimage to worship idolatry false god
    ( allah ) black stone( Meteorite ) star which fell from heaven in Mecca in the East corner of the Kaaba.

    Disciple Paul written about this 632 years before, in book of Acts 19:34--35--"But when the people knew that he was a Jew, all with one voice about the space of two hours cried out, Great is Diana of the Ephesians. And when the town clerk had quieted the people, he said, You men of Ephesus, What man is there that knoweth not how that city of the Ephesians is a worshipper of the great goddess Diana, and of the image which fell down from Jupiter, heaven.

    Now Muhammad got all Muslims to worship idolatry false god ( allah ) black stone (meteorite) star which fell down from heaven.
    In Mecca in the East corner of the Kaaba.

    Paul Written in Acts 7:43--" Yes, You took up the tabernacle of Moloch, and the star of your god Rem-phan, figures which you made to worship them, and I will carry you away beyond Babylon"

    The false gods of Egypt called - Osiris - ISIS
    In Assyria - Assure - Ishtar
    In Babylon - Bel - Belit
    In Persia - Mithra - Anahita
    In Greece - Helios - Artemis
    In Rome - Apollo - Diana - goddess Diana of the Ephesians.

    All these idolatry false god's has a crescent moon and star above their heads.

    The Crescent moon and star are found on top of all Muslims Mosques. Which is the star of Moloch idolatry false god of Rem-phan.
    Acts 7:43.
    Which is that very black stone ( Meteorite )
    star which fell down from heaven.

    Which goddess Diana had people of Ephesians to worship. "The city of the Ephesians is a worshipper of the great goddess Diana, and of the image which fell down from Jupiter, heaven"
    Acts 19:34-35.

    Which Muhammad taken out of the temple of great goddess Diana and has all Muslims worship in Mecca in the East corner of the Kaaba.
     
    #36 Faithofchristian, Oct 21, 2017
    Last edited: Oct 22, 2017
  17. Faithofchristian

    Faithofchristian Well-Known Member

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    Ishmael didn't have any part in the covenant, only Isaac.
    Genesis 17:21--"But my covenant will I establish with Isaac, which Sarah shall bear unto you"

    Ishmael was circumcised, But had nothing to do with the covenant.

    Abraham took Ishmael his son, and all that were born in his house, and all that were bought with his money, every male among the men of Abraham's house; and circumcised the flesh of their foreskin in the self same day, As God had said unto him" Genesis 17:23.

    The only thing that God said about Ishmael, is that God would make a great nation of Ishmael's descendants. And that's as far as it goes.

    And also of the son ( Ishmael ) of the bondwoman ( Hagar ) will I make a nation , because he is your seed" Genesis 21:13.

    If it had not been for Ishmael being the son of Abraham, Ishmael would haved received nothing.But because Ishmael is the son of Abraham's, God said he would make Ishmael a great nation. Genesis 21:17-18
     
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