MonkeyFire
Well-Known Member
You remind me of Terance McKenna.
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If Man Obeyed God
- Thread starter thomas t
- Start date
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- adam and eve design eden sin
Audie
Veteran Member
Audie
Veteran Member
If you are going to discuss you will I hope do better than just say " I think" as hard evidence,
nor hand wave with " i disagree ".
Subduction Zone
Veteran Member
To be fair the video uses naivety to combat a naive belief.
I didn't say "I think" understanding it as hard evidence, though...
@firedragon , you responded to the poll are you an atheist? (I thought you were a theist)
It looks like the Atheists might be too chicken to answer, so I'll act as the "Devil's Advocate" here and write or an Atheistic perspective to get things started, and maybe then the Atheists might come in and represent their beliefs here more authentically than my roleplay:
Hello, there is no God.
There is no evidence whatsoever that there is a God of any sort at all nor any kind of intelligent power of any kind which has ever manipulated or determined the way that things have occurred.
There is also no reason to believe age old mythological stories from any people, Greeks, Japanese, whoever, of which the Bible appears to be just another piece of mythology and fiction or symbolic writing.
Many Christians believe that Death was brought into existence by the disobedience of humans in relation to the tree due to the apparent advice of a talking snake or something.
There is nothing in our experience to suggest anything remotely like what is described in the Bible ever occurred or could ever occur since no such things seem to occur today, for example, snakes don't talk. I would think that I wouldn't have to explain that to most normal and sane people (this is the typical sort of Atheist snotty attitude you've probably seen, and it is probably because they are sad people because they don't feel like there is any God who loves them or may save them and they are just going to melt into a goopy pile of decayed flesh, which tends to make people cranky and take it out on the bright and shining, smiling people in love with God and loved by their God).
Cancer is when a cell becomes "immortalized", it doesn't die, and then makes other cells which are immortal thereafter, and they refuse to die as well, and all these cells eventually kill the whole body and thus finally die themselves, unless medical intervention eradicates these cells and their source if possible so that they are no longer produced.
Death seems a necessary part of life, and if God didn't create Death or want Death, is there some law or factor which is greater than God which informs God and makes things occur which God doesn't make occur or invent? Was there ever a possibility, a choice, or a chance, that the tree event wouldn't play out the way that it did? If there was a chance for something else to have happened, what determined what did happen ultimately if not God? A power different from God, a power greater than God, one that decides what actually ends up happening.
Yet, as an atheist (I'm still in character), I see no reason at all, no evidence, no precedent in anything, that suggests that Death was the invention of a God, that Death was the invention of something other than God, that there is a God, that there "wouldn't have been death" or that "there could be a world without death" when all I have known and seen, is a world in which death appears very useful and even necessary, where we are quite lucky, since it can only be luck to me, an atheist, that there is death and that death has kept the populations of all creatures under control over the years.
If Satan is credited with the introduction of Death, then hallelusah for that! Can you imagine a world covered in spiders and ants? If you can imagine a world where no one ever dies but everything can procreate, then you can probably also imagine how mankind might have fared against creatures which can reproduce much faster than themselves. Was this God's plan:
Hello, there is no God.
There is no evidence whatsoever that there is a God of any sort at all nor any kind of intelligent power of any kind which has ever manipulated or determined the way that things have occurred.
There is also no reason to believe age old mythological stories from any people, Greeks, Japanese, whoever, of which the Bible appears to be just another piece of mythology and fiction or symbolic writing.
Many Christians believe that Death was brought into existence by the disobedience of humans in relation to the tree due to the apparent advice of a talking snake or something.
There is nothing in our experience to suggest anything remotely like what is described in the Bible ever occurred or could ever occur since no such things seem to occur today, for example, snakes don't talk. I would think that I wouldn't have to explain that to most normal and sane people (this is the typical sort of Atheist snotty attitude you've probably seen, and it is probably because they are sad people because they don't feel like there is any God who loves them or may save them and they are just going to melt into a goopy pile of decayed flesh, which tends to make people cranky and take it out on the bright and shining, smiling people in love with God and loved by their God).
Cancer is when a cell becomes "immortalized", it doesn't die, and then makes other cells which are immortal thereafter, and they refuse to die as well, and all these cells eventually kill the whole body and thus finally die themselves, unless medical intervention eradicates these cells and their source if possible so that they are no longer produced.
Death seems a necessary part of life, and if God didn't create Death or want Death, is there some law or factor which is greater than God which informs God and makes things occur which God doesn't make occur or invent? Was there ever a possibility, a choice, or a chance, that the tree event wouldn't play out the way that it did? If there was a chance for something else to have happened, what determined what did happen ultimately if not God? A power different from God, a power greater than God, one that decides what actually ends up happening.
Yet, as an atheist (I'm still in character), I see no reason at all, no evidence, no precedent in anything, that suggests that Death was the invention of a God, that Death was the invention of something other than God, that there is a God, that there "wouldn't have been death" or that "there could be a world without death" when all I have known and seen, is a world in which death appears very useful and even necessary, where we are quite lucky, since it can only be luck to me, an atheist, that there is death and that death has kept the populations of all creatures under control over the years.
If Satan is credited with the introduction of Death, then hallelusah for that! Can you imagine a world covered in spiders and ants? If you can imagine a world where no one ever dies but everything can procreate, then you can probably also imagine how mankind might have fared against creatures which can reproduce much faster than themselves. Was this God's plan:
Yet, God is believed in throughout the world in cultures that have no idea of the Bible, and historically in cultures long before any of the Bible was written. So I don't think that idea holds any merit.
Audie
Veteran Member
Do you really not know what I am saying ?
That for example in face of the world scientific community- physics, chemistry, biology, geology etc and their demonstration ten thousand ways that no floodvever happened-
You counter with " I think " or. "I disagree".
You do realize that is not a discussion?
Audie
Veteran Member
" God" ? You surely mean the countless thousands of magic spirits great and small
concocted from imagination.
those are part of it. And like it or not, it's your inheritance from your ancestors as well as mine. There are lots of studies in anthropology that deal with this, and no, they cannot be reduced down to your simplistic opinion here as "concocted from imatimation". You'd get an F in class with an answer like that.
Audie
Veteran Member
those are part of it. And like it or not, it's your inheritance from your ancestors as well as mine. There are lots of studies in anthropology that deal with this, and no, they cannot be reduced down to your simplistic opinion here as "concocted from imatimation". You'd get an F in class with an answer like that.
Really now. Simplistic? You have datum point one to indicate there is anything else?
A bit of real supernatural?
Unless its creative writing, its you getting the F.
Ya got a fact or an imagination?
It's not my job to teach you what is readily available for your own research, should you choose to try to seek an actual understanding. But here's a really high-level, easily accessible look at the complexities of such a question, as you swipe away so simply.
How and why did religion evolve?
Now you may think all this is all worthless opinions of overeducated mucky mucks stating nonsense, and that's fine, you're free to your religious beliefs about religion, if prefer ignoring research and just sticking with your personal opinion, such as that is. But I'm not going to engage in debating the merits of your views. I don't have the energies for that sort of meritless discussion anymore. Please enjoy.
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Audie
Veteran Member
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ppp
Well-Known Member
There is no reason to believe that there is a god to do anything. And there is a bountiful surplus of evidence that living, imbricating organisms contiguously existed, reproduced and died for the 3.5 billions prior to the emergence of any member of the human species.
ppp
Well-Known Member
Only if you equivocate the meaning of "God" to something utterly generic, and do a bit of cultural whitewashing. And even if you are willing to turn a blind eye to that, you would also have to ignore the aggressive centuries long attempts ((and successes) at Colonization by Christians and Muslims. The concept of "God" has been a cultural cuckoo.
I'm entitled to say my opinion on matters relevant to faith.
Normally I start with "I think, that [..]".
Last time, I said that the earth on which the flood happened does not exist any more, as indicated by 2 Peter 3:5-6.
And then I added an "I think" to make it clear that this is my opinion. There is nothing wrong with that, I think.
But if the earth in which the flood happened isn't the earth we live on right now, then it is questionable if you find evidence for the flood to begin with.
Since this flood according to the Bible (my in terpretation of same verse), happened on the previous version of the earth.
I think we had a discussion on it.
Thomas
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Thank you for your input, Joe.
Take the wine in Cana, when Jesus turned water into wine. It quickly had "bountiful surplus of evidence" to indicate that the drink was old, yet it was young according to the Bible.
Same thing with earth that also has an appearance of age.
I go one step further and I don't just believe in a loving God - I believe in the Bible-God, too. I also believe that God did everything as indicated in the Bible. For instance, I believe he authored a change in genetics in Genesis 6:3.
when there is a miracle involved, the miracuously created thing always indicates an age that wasn't there, I think.
Take the wine in Cana, when Jesus turned water into wine. It quickly had "bountiful surplus of evidence" to indicate that the drink was old, yet it was young according to the Bible.
Same thing with earth that also has an appearance of age.
I think there is. Take all the beauty in the countryside, for instance.
I go one step further and I don't just believe in a loving God - I believe in the Bible-God, too. I also believe that God did everything as indicated in the Bible. For instance, I believe he authored a change in genetics in Genesis 6:3.
I guess I'm confused about what you're saying you think happened. Do I have it right?
- Adam & Eve ate from the tree
- after this (right after?), God changed their DNA
- because of the changes to their DNA, human beings now have finite lives
The issues I see with this:
- fixing a problem after it happens is worse than preventing it from happening in the first place. You're still implying that God is imperfect.
- the "solution" is a pretty poor one, since even Jesus admits that it doesn't work most of the time.