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If Jesus was God, explain this verse...

Discussion in 'Scriptural Debates' started by Aamer, Jul 25, 2013.

  1. 74x12

    74x12 Well-Known Member

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    Yes, it also has to do with the duality of Christ's nature. He was 100% God and 100% human. He was both uncreated in Spirit without a beginning (Isaiah 9:6; Micah 5:2; Heb. 13:8) and yet His body was created in the womb. (Heb. 10:5, a body hast thou prepared me ...) So, Jesus faced in the flesh all temptations common to mankind. (Hebs. 4:15) Yet, He remained without sin because the Spirit in Him was God. (Col. 1:19; Col. 2:8-9)
     
  2. 1213

    1213 Well-Known Member

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    I personally believe what the Bible tells and according to it, there is only one true God that is greater than Jesus.

    This is eternal life, that they should know you, the only true God, and him whom you sent, Jesus Christ.
    John 17:3


    the Father is greater than I.

    John 14:28

    Jesus just represents God on earth.

    For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus,
    1 Timothy 2:5
     
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  3. 74x12

    74x12 Well-Known Member

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    Greater than Jesus incarnate, but in Spirit Jesus is God.
    Why did John think that Jesus is Jehovah? In John 12:39-41, John says Isaiah saw Christ's glory and spoke of Him. Yet in context of what Isaiah said in Isaiah chapter 6, we find that it was Jehovah that Isaiah saw in the temple.

    John 12:39-41
    39 Therefore they could not believe, because that Esaias said again,
    40 He hath blinded their eyes, and hardened their heart; that they should not see with their eyes, nor understand with their heart, and be converted, and I should heal them.
    41 These things said Esaias, when he saw his glory, and spake of him.

    Isaiah 6:1
    1 In the year that king Uzziah died I saw also the Lord sitting upon a throne, high and lifted up, and his train filled the temple.

    No wonder Jesus said the scriptures speak of Him. Jesus is God.

    Yes Jesus' body was created as it says in Hebrews 10:5 "Wherefore when he cometh into the world, he saith, Sacrifice and offering thou wouldest not, but a body hast thou prepared me:"
    So, obviously God required a body to be the sacrifice because none of the animal sacrifices truly made propitiation for sins. All they could do is cleanse away a few minor rules of the Law. But, in the Law of Moses there was no sacrifice for great sins. God had to come in the flesh to make true atonement. Don't you know that the holy Spirit was constantly searching the hearts of men to see if there was any worthy? As God said to Samuel, look not on their appearance for I have rejected them. Yet, of the Lamb of God it says "Worthy is the Lamb that was slain to receive power, and riches, and wisdom, and strength, and honour, and glory, and blessing."

    God knowing that all humans were prisoners unto death, looked for One who was perfect who would be the perfect sacrifice ...
    For he hath looked down from the height of his sanctuary; from heaven did the Lord behold the earth; To hear the groaning of the prisoner; to loose those that are appointed to death; To declare the name of the Lord in Zion, and his praise in Jerusalem; (Psalm 102:19-21)

    But, He saw there was no man (No man was worthy) ... so His own arm brought salvation unto Him. and His own righteousness sustained Him. (God had to do this Himself. There was none worthy.)
    And he saw that there was no man, and wondered that there was no intercessor: therefore his arm brought salvation unto him; and his righteousness, it sustained him. (Isaiah 59:16)

    So, this is why God needed a human body. (Heb. 10:5) He must die for our sins.

    Further God even says He forgives us for His own sake. (Isaiah 43:25)
    I, even I, am he that blotteth out thy transgressions for mine ownsake, and will not remember thy sins.​

    Therefore, logically we must deduce that Jesus is indeed God or else how could God forgive us for the sake of Jesus as is claimed in Eph. 4:32 "And be ye kind one to another, tenderhearted, forgiving one another, even as God for Christ's sake hath forgiven you."

    And Jesus says to the devil "Thou shalt worship the Lord thy God, and him only shalt thou serve." (Matthew 4:10)​
    But Jesus also says that ONE is your Master, even Christ.
    Neither be ye called masters: for one is your Master, even Christ. (Matt. 23:10)​
    So, people who read the Bible logically must come to the conclusion that according to the scriptures Jesus Christ is God manifest or else they must conclude that Jesus was taking glory and honor that were not His, but belonged to God. It is my firm belief that Jesus did not do so, but that He testified the truth when He showed by so many proofs that He was Jehovah manifest the One who the scriptures are all about.
    Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me. (John 5:39)​

    Why do we look any where other than God? And, why would God the ONE true God ever want to confuse us so badly as to send someone who was NOT Himself into the world so that we could worship someone other than the ONE true God? Isn't this the same God that said:
    Is there a God beside me? yea, there is no God; I know not any. (Isaiah 44:8)
    Ye are my witnesses, saith the Lord, and my servant whom I have chosen: that ye may know and believe me, and understand that I am he: before me there was no God formed, neither shall there be after me. (Isaiah 43:10)

    In conclusion, the body of Christ was human and created. Therefore He said "My Father is greater than I". Yet, the Spirit indwelling Him was none other than God. As it pleased all the fullness to dwell in Him. (Col. 1:19) "For all the fullness was pleased to dwell in him;"
    And, He was "in the form of God" (Phil. 2:6)
    And, He is called the Mighty God, the everlasting Father. (Isa. 9:6)

    You know that Jesus claims He will return in the "glory of His Father"? (Matt. 16:27)
    Why then does Jehovah say:
    I am the Lord: that is my name: and my glory will I not give to another, neither my praise to graven images. (Isaiah 42:8)
    Therefore, if Jesus is coming in the "glory of His Father" then we must conclude that Jesus is one with God or else He is taking glory that's not His. No man can take this glory and claim it for Himself for it is the glory of the Lord. Jesus Christ is God.

    Getting back to your argument that Jesus is not God because He said God is greater then He is. This is the duality of Christ's nature. He is not just God but human. Not just human but God. This is why in Zech. 12:10 God says they will look upon "me" whom they have pierced, but then suddenly it changes tenses from "me" the scripture shifts to "him". Why? Because this is talking about His two natures. Jesus is fully God and human.

    And I will pour upon the house of David, and upon the inhabitants of Jerusalem, the spirit of grace and of supplications: and they shall look upon me whom they have pierced, and they shall mourn for him, as one mourneth for his only son, and shall be in bitterness for him, as one that is in bitterness for his firstborn. (Zech 12:10)

    Revelation 1:7 Behold, he is coming with the clouds, and every eye will see him, including those who pierced him. All the tribes of the earth will mourn over him. Even so, Amen.​
     
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  4. 1213

    1213 Well-Known Member

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    Thanks for your reply. And sorry, I have to disagree. Bible tells Jesus is the image of God. That is why when one sees Jesus, he sees also God, because Jesus is the image of God, according to the Bible.

    in whom we have our redemption, the forgiveness of our sins; who is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of all creation.
    Colossians 1:14

    Also it is said Jesus is the mediator between God and people.

    For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus,
    1 Timothy 2:5

    Jesus is like ambassador of God. God has authorized Jesus to make deal with people in His name. That is why Jesus represents God on earth. It is like in the case of president. President makes deals in the name of his country, he is not the country, but he can act in its name.

    Does the Bible say “he must die for our sins”? Bible tells Jesus could forgive sins already before his death. So death doesn’t seem to be necessary.


    The scribes and the Pharisees began to reason, saying, "Who is this that speaks blasphemies? Who can forgive sins, but God alone?" But Jesus, perceiving their thoughts, answered them, "Why are you reasoning so in your hearts? Which is easier to say, 'Your sins are forgiven you;' or to say, 'Arise and walk?' But that you may know that the Son of Man has authority on earth to forgive sins" (he said to the paralyzed man), "I tell you, arise, and take up your cot, and go to your house." Immediately he rose up before them, and took up that which he was laying on, and departed to his house, glorifying God.

    Luke 5:21-25

    By what I know, Jesus is not taking God’s glory. On the contrary, Jesus gives credit to God.

    For I spoke not from myself, but the Father who sent me, he gave me a commandment, what I should say, and what I should speak. I know that his commandment is eternal life. The things therefore which I speak, even as the Father has said to me, so I speak."
    John 12:49-50



    I don’t see any reason to believe Jesus is taking God’s glory.
     
  5. 74x12

    74x12 Well-Known Member

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    This is about His human nature. Jesus is the firstborn of all creation because there is no other begotten Son of God. Adam was created a Son. He was not born of God like Jesus.
    As for Jesus, the point here is that He is not just "made in the image of God" like Adam was. He is more precise than that. He is made the "express" image of God's person. (Heb. 1:3) So, it's a little bit more than Adam isn't it? This Jesus is the exact person of God revealed in human form. The invisible God manifest. This was prophesied in Gen. 1:26. God knew beforehand that He would have to remake us into His image again because we would fall in sin. So, God spoke through the ages to the incarnate Christ saying "Let us(plural) make man in our image." This is why Jesus came. He came to remake us into the image of God again because we've fallen away. This is why God needed to become a human being because He is going to be the second Adam to renew us to the Father.

    God became human to reconcile us unto Himself. Therefore, He is our mediator and Jesus is the literal link between God and man.

    And, having made peace through the blood of his cross, by him to reconcile all things unto himself; by him, I say, whether they be things in earth, or things in heaven. (Col. 1:20)

    Jesus didn't just die for the sins of those who came after Him. He died for all the sins from Adam onwards. Without Jesus' blood; no one would be forgiven. Jesus was the propitiation for all time. So when Jesus forgave sins on earth it was knowing it was by His own blood. (Rev. 13:8, Heb. 11:39-40) And yes, I am afraid someone has to die for sins to be forgiven. Please see Heb. 9:22.
    Heb. 9:22 And almost all things are by the law purged with blood; and without shedding of blood is no remission.
    Jesus was foreshadowed by the Ram in the bush. Abraham said "My son, God will provide himself a lamb for a burnt offering: so they went both of them together." This sacrifice is Jesus and all forgiveness (of sins unto death)for all ages of mankind is through His blood.

    Therefore, my original point stands. God said He will only forgive for His own sake. Yet, the scripture also says that we're forgiven for the sake of Jesus' blood. So, logically Jesus is God.

    Jesus in the flesh was made to rely upon God. He obeyed the Spirit and spoke as prompted by the Spirit. However, that doesn't He is not God manifest. Jesus had to face all the limitations of mankind. He did it all for us.

    If you're right that Jesus is not God then why does God say that He does not share His glory with another and yet Jesus claimed He would return in "the Father's glory"??? Why is Jesus saying He will return in the glory of God if Jesus is not God?

    You have a Greater God and a lesser God. Two Gods! To my mind; it's irreconcilable ... You have the jealous Jehovah of the old Testament but suddenly He lets you have another God and that's okay now? As long as I believe in Jesus I have no choice but to admit He is God.

    Ex. 34:14 For thou shalt worship no other god: for the Lord, whose name is Jealous, is a jealous God:
     
  6. 1213

    1213 Well-Known Member

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    This is the reason Bible gives:

    "The Spirit of the Lord is on me, Because he has anointed me to preach good news to the poor. He has sent me to heal the brokenhearted, To proclaim release to the captives, Recovering of sight to the blind, To deliver those who are crushed, And to proclaim the acceptable year of the Lord."
    Luke 4:18-19

    He said to them, "Let's go elsewhere into the next towns, that I may preach there also, because for this reason I came forth."
    Mark 1:38

    But he said to them, "I must preach the good news of the Kingdom of God to the other cities also. For this reason I have been sent."
    Luke 4:43

    After all, it is the words that Jesus said that matters:

    It is the Spirit who gives life; the flesh is useless. The words that I have spoken to you are spirit and are life.
    John 6:63

    Truly, truly I tell you, if anyone keeps my word, he will never see death at all.”
    John. 8:51

    Sad thing is that many “Christians” are really not any more faithful to those words, but follow their own doctrines like the Pharisees during the time when Jesus was on earth.
     
  7. 74x12

    74x12 Well-Known Member

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    But that doesn't negate what Jesus said in John chapter 3. Marvel not that I tell you, you must be born anew. If we aren't born again we're not remade in Christ's image. This is what it means to be remade into God's image through Christ.

    John 3:
    3 Jesus answered and said unto him, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God.
    4 Nicodemus saith unto him, How can a man be born when he is old? can he enter the second time into his mother's womb, and be born?
    5 Jesus answered, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born of water and of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God.
    6 That which is born of the flesh is flesh; and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit.
    7 Marvel not that I said unto thee, Ye must be born again.
     
  8. Rough Beast Sloucher

    Rough Beast Sloucher Well-Known Member
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    I looked through this lengthy thread and did not see the answer I am giving here. But if I missed it, mea culpa. Anyway here goes. Way back in Catholic elementary school, this is what they told me.

    Jesus had just been baptized and during that God the Father and the Holy Spirit put on a most impressive display marking Jesus as someone really important. The devil would be sure to notice. The Father said "this is my son". But what did that really mean? the devil wondered. Is this really the one that God is going to put up against him? Despite all that stuff at the baptism, this Jesus fellow did not look very impressive. But the devil needed to be sure. If he is not 'the One', maybe another one of those prophets, no need to worry. If Jesus is the real thing, best to try to nip this in the bud right now. This was not just quixotic. The devil was not going to give up his hold on mankind without a good strong try and Jesus appeared entirely human and so ripe for temptation.

    And so the devil set out to tempt Jesus to find out who he was and maybe get him off track from whatever he was going to do. But all to no avail. The devil realized who Jesus really was and the cat was out of the bag. After this all the demons Jesus encountered recognized him and feared him.

    The devil did not give up of course. But he did not grasp how Jesus was to win out over him. The devil saw an opportunity to get rid of Jesus once and for all in Jerusalem, by getting him killed. He got Judas to betray Jesus to his death.

    John 13:2 The evening meal was in progress, and the devil had already prompted Judas, the son of Simon Iscariot, to betray Jesus.

    But the devil was unaware that was exactly where Jesus was going, to be the willing sacrifice to defeat sin and the devil.

    John 13:27 As soon as Judas took the bread, Satan entered into him.

    So Jesus told him, “What you are about to do, do quickly.”

    In this way the devil unwittingly and unwillingly became the servant of Jesus. Rather than the devil defeating Jesus, he ensured his own defeat.

    It was not God tempting himself, but the devil's uncertainty that led to the temptations.
     
  9. Faithofchristian

    Faithofchristian Well-Known Member

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    Adam was given rulership over the earth, But Adam Failed to defeat the devil,
    So Jesus defeated the devil, taking back the rulership over the earth from the devil.

    Jesus is God, How this possible,
    God made a body, then God encased Himself inside of the body of Jesus.
     
  10. Faithofchristian

    Faithofchristian Well-Known Member

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    Jesus and Nicodemus in their conversation, Jesus said unto Nicodemus, You must be born again of the water and of the Spirit.
    How is a person born of the water and of the Spirit?
     
  11. Rough Beast Sloucher

    Rough Beast Sloucher Well-Known Member
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    The water part is easy. Sprinkling, full immersion, take your pick.

    According to Acts, the Apostles were baptized with the Holy Spirit at Pentecost who visibly came on them. This appears to be a one time special event.

    Acts 2:38 says that if you repent and get baptized, presumably with water, you will receive the gift of the Holy Spirit.

    In Acts 8:15-17 some people who had only been baptized in the name of Jesus had not received the Holy Spirit. Peter and John lay hands on them and they receive the Holy Spirit. But maybe the laying on of hands method is something only original Apostles can do?

    In Matthew 28:19, Jesus says to baptize "in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit".

    Is this the answer: use water (how?) and use that formula?
     
  12. Faithofchristian

    Faithofchristian Well-Known Member

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    If to what you say is right, Then show in John Chapter 3 Verse's 3 thru 6, just where in the whole Conversation between Jesus and Nicodemus where they said anything about Baptism?
    Jesus and Nicodemus never mention baptism not one time, in their whole Conversation, So how do you come adding baptism into Jesus and Nicodemus conversation, When in fact neither one of them said anything about Baptism, themselves.
    So you think that you have the right to add things into Jesus and Nicodemus conversation, which they themselves said nothing about.themselves.
     
    #1412 Faithofchristian, Dec 27, 2017
    Last edited: Dec 27, 2017
  13. Rough Beast Sloucher

    Rough Beast Sloucher Well-Known Member
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    Paul relates the Spirit and baptism many times, saying that baptism is the pathway to salvation. As I have shown, Acts connects the Spirit and correct baptism. Water very obviously is related to baptism. Baptism as a way of remitting sins and starting over appears in the scriptures. Paul even refers to baptism as dying and being resurrected to a new life. Romans 6:4 Colossians 2:12

    Are you claiming that, despite all the thematic connections above, there is something else entirely different from baptism that Jesus was talking about that involves water and the Spirit and is essential to salvation? What is it? Please show explicit references supporting your point of view elsewhere in the scriptures with chapter and verse citations.
     
  14. Faithofchristian

    Faithofchristian Well-Known Member

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    Look, just show in John 3:3-6, As to where Jesus and Nicodemus said anything about baptism in their whole conversation.
    Thats All
    So how do you come by baptism, when Jesus nor Nicodemus said nothing about baptism in their whole conversation.

    Just how do we get from Jesus and Nicodemus in John 3:3-6 over to Paul.
    Why don't you try staying with the conversation between Jesus and Nicodemus.
    Paul has nothing at all do with Jesus and Nicodemus conversation.
     
  15. Rough Beast Sloucher

    Rough Beast Sloucher Well-Known Member
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    You mean that different parts of the Bible have nothing to do with each other? Who knew...
     
  16. Faithofchristian

    Faithofchristian Well-Known Member

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    Not when your adding to. Jesus and Nicodemus conversation. When in fact neither Jesus nor Nicodemus said anything about baptism.


    So try staying with the conversation between Jesus and Nicodemus.and don't add anything to their coversation.
     
  17. Rough Beast Sloucher

    Rough Beast Sloucher Well-Known Member
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    Then you explain the meaning of water and the Spirit entirely within the context of those few verses without reference to anything else.
     
  18. Faithofchristian

    Faithofchristian Well-Known Member

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    If you had read Verse 4 you would see that Jesus and Nicodemus are taking about the womb of a woman.
    Therefore when a woman's water breaks the baby is born of that water.

    To be born, of the Spirit of God, is by the word of God.
     
  19. Muffled

    Muffled Jesus in me

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    I believe the devil can tempt the flesh but the flesh is not God and the flesh is not Jesus because Jesus is the combination of flesh and God.
     
  20. Muffled

    Muffled Jesus in me

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    I believe this concept is false. One is never greater than itself. One in NYC can be greater than One in Kalamazoo, MI.

    I believe this can't be true because Jesus is God on earth and that is more than just representation.
     
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