If Jesus was God, explain this verse...

[Katzpur]

Read John 1: 3-12 and tell me who is it talking about in verse 3 that made all things? and who is it in verse 10 that was in the world, and the world was made by him, and the world knew him not. He came unto his own and his own received him not.

Now read Isaiah 44:24 and tell me who it is that made all things, that stretcheth forth the heavens alone; that spreadeth abroad the earth by myself?

According to my belief, these passages all refer to Jesus Christ, who -- under the direction of His Father -- created our universe.

 

[TrueBeliever37]

According to my belief, these passages all refer to Jesus Christ, who -- under the direction of His Father -- created our universe.

You do realize that in Isaiah 44:24 where it has LORD in all caps, that that is where the name YHWH would be in the original - right?

So, YHWH is saying he made all things, and stretched forth the heavens alone, and spread abroad the earth by himself. (Note: alone and by himself)

So how can it be talking about the Messiah in John 1: unless it is YHWH dwelling in that body?

 

[Katzpur]

You do realize that in Isaiah 44:24 where it has LORD in all caps, that that is where the name YHWH would be in the original - right?

So, YHWH is saying he made all things, and stretched forth the heavens alone, and spread abroad the earth by himself. (Note: alone and by himself)

So how can it be talking about the Messiah in John 1: unless it is YHWH dwelling in that body?

I believe that JHWH is the name by which Jesus Christ was known prior to His birth here on earth. I believe that Jesus Christ of the New Testament is the same individual as Jehovah of the Old Testament. (I hope you realize that you're wasting your time trying to convince me otherwise.)

 

[TrueBeliever37]

I believe that JHWH is the name by which Jesus Christ was known prior to His birth here on earth. I believe that Jesus Christ of the New Testament is the same individual as Jehovah of the Old Testament. (I hope you realize that you're wasting your time trying to convince me otherwise.)

Well you must be misunderstanding me then. My point was to show that the Messiah was the God of the OT dwelling in a fleshly body. I have been saying all along that YHWH came down and dwelt in a fleshly body. You have seen my posts, I don't believe in the Trinity. I thought I saw your posts and you said different than you are saying now. I will try to find it and give you a post #.

 

[TrueBeliever37]

I'm sure you realize that if God Almighty and Jesus Christ were the same "Person," we'd have all kinds of contradictions in the Bible. Jesus frequently prayed to His Father in Heaven while He was here on Earth and referred to His Father as being "in Heaven." If they were the same Person, He'd have been praying to Himself. Why would He have done that? Why would He have compared Himself to His Father and said that the Father is Greater than the Son? After all, there can be no comparison if there is only one Person. When Jesus died, He commended His spirit into His Father's Hands. Are you saying He commended His spirit into His own hands? And when Stephen looked into Heaven and saw "the Son of Man standing on the right hand of God," do you believe he was just seeing double? He saw two Beings, two Persons, not just one. I mean, seriously, I could give you dozens upon dozens of examples proving that the Father is not the Son and that the Son is not the Father. I suspect you'd just dismiss them, though. I don't understand how people can just ignore the many, many, many occasions in which we see in the scriptures an interaction between two individual Persons.

Here is your post Katzpur? To me it seems to be conflicting with what you just said in post#1383

Could you please explain.

 

[Katzpur]

Here is your post Katzpur? To me it seems to be conflicting with what you just said in post#1383

Could you please explain.

Okay, let me see if I can clarify what I meant. I believe that Jesus Christ was known prior to His birth (which would been thought the entire time period covered in the Old Testament) as Jehovah (or JHWH, if you prefer). I believe that most references to "God" in the Old Testament are actually referring to the pre-mortal Messiah, the individual known as Jehovah at that time, but as Jesus Christ in the New Testament, when He was here upon the earth. I don't believe in the Trinity, but I do believe in a Godhead comprised of three individuals: the Father (who I also could refer to as Elohim), the Son (Jehovah/Jesus Christ), and the Holy Ghost. I believe they are three separate beings, absolutely united in will and heart, in their love for us and in their purpose, which is to bring to pass the eternal life of mankind. I believe that, within the correct context, any of of the three can be referred to as "God," because all three -- by the Father's will -- share that title. I believe that of the three, the Father holds a position of superiority (not in his divine attributes, but in "rank," for lack of a better word. I hope that helps.

 

[Faithofchristian]

If Muhammad be true prophet explain these Verse's Matthew 24:24-26.
Muhammad lived in desert.

 

[Ingledsva]

Wait a second.... You state the Tanakh doesn't mention Satan, and then you quote Psalms 109:6 -- a book in the Tanakh -- to try and prove your point of Satan (being a tester, not a tempter)?

Don't you see something wrong with that? (Or did I misunderstand somehow?) Unless, you care to revise that. In fact I think the Tanakh does imply a literal, evil Satan, in a few places. Exodus 7 and Daniel 12 are two.

You definitely misread that.

Satan is in Tanakh. In Tanakh Satan is not the evil autonomous being that Christians make him out to be.

He has a specific job - which Psalm 109:6 shows him doing.

Lucifer is not in Tanakh.

There is NO Satan in Exodus 7, or Daniel 12.

*

 

[TrueBeliever37]

Okay, let me see if I can clarify what I meant. I believe that Jesus Christ was known prior to His birth (which would been thought the entire time period covered in the Old Testament) as Jehovah (or JHWH, if you prefer). I believe that most references to "God" in the Old Testament are actually referring to the pre-mortal Messiah, the individual known as Jehovah at that time, but as Jesus Christ in the New Testament, when He was here upon the earth. I don't believe in the Trinity, but I do believe in a Godhead comprised of three individuals: the Father (who I also could refer to as Elohim), the Son (Jehovah/Jesus Christ), and the Holy Ghost. I believe they are three separate beings, absolutely united in will and heart, in their love for us and in their purpose, which is to bring to pass the eternal life of mankind. I believe that, within the correct context, any of of the three can be referred to as "God," because all three -- by the Father's will -- share that title. I believe that of the three, the Father holds a position of superiority (not in his divine attributes, but in "rank," for lack of a better word. I hope that helps.

I believe that JHWH is the name by which Jesus Christ was known prior to His birth here on earth. I believe that Jesus Christ of the New Testament is the same individual as Jehovah of the Old Testament. (I hope you realize that you're wasting your time trying to convince me otherwise.)

I'm sure you realize that if God Almighty and Jesus Christ were the same "Person," we'd have all kinds of contradictions in the Bible. Jesus frequently prayed to His Father in Heaven while He was here on Earth and referred to His Father as being "in Heaven." If they were the same Person, He'd have been praying to Himself. Why would He have done that? Why would He have compared Himself to His Father and said that the Father is Greater than the Son? After all, there can be no comparison if there is only one Person. When Jesus died, He commended His spirit into His Father's Hands. Are you saying He commended His spirit into His own hands? And when Stephen looked into Heaven and saw "the Son of Man standing on the right hand of God," do you believe he was just seeing double? He saw two Beings, two Persons, not just one. I mean, seriously, I could give you dozens upon dozens of examples proving that the Father is not the Son and that the Son is not the Father. I suspect you'd just dismiss them, though. I don't understand how people can just ignore the many, many, many occasions in which we see in the scriptures an interaction between two individual Persons.

Hi Katzpur,

I am showing 3 of your posts above with a few statements shown in bold. In the top 2 posts, you said you believe that Jesus Christ of the N.T. is the same individual as YHWH of the O.T.

Then in the last post - You said if God Almighty and Jesus Christ were the same "Person" we would have all kinds of contradictions in the Bible.

That being said, what do you do with verses like Exodus 6:2-3?
Where God told Moses I am YHWH (you said you believe this is the same person as Jesus Christ) and that he appeared to Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob as God Almighty.

If he is God Almighty as he said, then how is this not having all those contradictions you said we would have?

 

[Katzpur]

Hi Katzpur,

I am showing 3 of your posts above with a few statements shown in bold. In the top 2 posts, you said you believe that Jesus Christ of the N.T. is the same individual as YHWH of the O.T.

Then in the last post - You said if God Almighty and Jesus Christ were the same "Person" we would have all kinds of contradictions in the Bible.

That being said, what do you do with verses like Exodus 6:2-3?
Where God told Moses I am YHWH (you said you believe this is the same person as Jesus Christ) and that he appeared to Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob as God Almighty.

If he is God Almighty as he said, then how is this not having all those contradictions you said we would have?

I believe you have misunderstood me, TrueBeliever. I believe that Jesus Christ, the Son of God, was known as Jehovah in the Old Testament. I believe His Father was (and is today) known as Elohim. They are separate and distinct persons, both of whom share the title of "God." I see no contradictions between what I believe and what the Bible teaches. You're not going to change my mind, so I suggest you not waste your time.

 

[Clear]

I believe that Jesus Christ, the Son of God, was known as Jehovah in the Old Testament. I believe His Father was (and is today) known as Elohim. They are separate and distinct persons, both of whom share the title of "God." I see no contradictions between what I believe and what the Bible teaches. You're not going to change my mind, so I suggest you not waste your time.

Katzpur, I haven't followed the discussion, I just noticed your name.

Just a point Katzpur : While True believer37 offered a masoretic version of the scripture produced by rabbinic Judaism (Masoretic version). Does it change the context if one uses the following earlier version of this text produced by the Jews of 300 b.c. (LXX)? “And God spoke to Moses and said to him, I am the Lord. And I appeared to Abraham and Isaac, and Jacob, being their God, and my name, the Lord, was not manifest to them.” (exodus 6:2-3)

The Jewish Septuagint (which, like the Masoretic, is an interpretation of the text) is closer (timewise) to one of the three versions of the biblical text found by Hilkiah (or the forth produced from the three) than the Masoretic. For example, in the Septuagint, there is no reference to "an Almighty" and that specific question would not and could not be asked from that verse in that version of the bible.

My point is, There were and are multiple versions of the Old Testament and multiple interpretations of these versions. The questions that are asked and the answers depend upon which version one has and upon the interpretation one places upon the text rather than a hypothetical "original text".

Whatever the most original texts which originated in time immemorial was and whatever the most correct interpretation was in the later texts which have come down to us in the various versions, I hope you have a good holiday and a wonderful journey. See you sometime Katzpur.


Clear
τωσισεεισεω

 

[Ingledsva]

I believe you have misunderstood me, TrueBeliever. I believe that Jesus Christ, the Son of God, was known as Jehovah in the Old Testament. I believe His Father was (and is today) known as Elohim. They are separate and distinct persons, both of whom share the title of "God." I see no contradictions between what I believe and what the Bible teaches. You're not going to change my mind, so I suggest you not waste your time.

Elohiym just means generic god, gods, magistrates, etc.

The Bible uses Elohiym for other gods, and for people.

1Ki 11:33 Because that they have forsaken me, and have worshipped Ashtoreth the Elohiym of the Zidonians, Chemosh the Elohiym of the Moabites, and Milcom the Elohiym of the children of Ammon, and have not walked in my ways, to do that which is right in mine eyes, and to keep my statutes and my judgments, as did David his father.

Exo 22:8 If the thief be not found, then the master of the house shall be brought unto the judges (Elohiym), to see whether he have put his hand unto his neighbor's goods.

*

 

[Clear]

Hi Katzpur : Just a comment


Ingledsva (in post #1392) also gives us a wonderful example of the point I was making. Given that Judaism existed in various schisms, there were bound to be various textual revisions and various textual versions of the Old Testament text which reflects the differences of their varying theologies.

Not only do the various differences in ancient theology produce differing texts, the different texts then produce differing theologies.

For example, in Ingledvas’ worldview derived (in this case) from the later masoretic jewish text, though the earliest readers may have thought the “Elohim” was God, the English translator renders the word “Judges”. We don't know why the translator did this, but, this later ENGLISH version of the rabbinic hebrew version was, for some reason, rendered : "Exo 22:8 If the thief be not found, then the master of the house shall be brought unto the judges [to see] whether he have put his hand unto his neighbor's goods."

This is different than the earlier Jewish Septuagint version where the greek tells us that the person shall come “before God” and swear that he did not steal the items. We do something similar in a court of law when swearing upon the bible to “tell the truth. The whole truth, and nothing but the truth…”

The Septuagint that was produced by an earlier form of Judaism reads : " Exo 22:8 But if the one stealing is not found [then] shall the master of the house come before God and shall swear that he did not do wickedly concerning all that was in deposit for his neighbor. "

This did not necessarily mean that the person(s) he swore to were judges, but simply that it was an attestation of truth similar to what happens in a court.

We do not have any of the earliest source texts underlying these versions and so no one can know what the earliest source versions looked like or what they said, but the point is that there are different versions and differing theological positions and these differing worldviews are partly formed by the version of the bible that one is exposed to. For Ingledsva, an Elohim can be a judge because the english version uses the word “judge” in this spot whereas the earlier hebrew readers of the same sentence may have understood “elohim” to have it’s original meaning of "God" as might the readers of the earlier Jewish version. The earlier "Septuagint" jews would, obviously have NOT drawn the same conclusion or adopt the same theology from this specific text.

In any case Katzpur, I hope your life is good and satisfying as you (and the rest of us) make our way through the maze of various theological claims and beliefs.

Clear
τωσεσεφιτωω

 

[TrueBeliever37]

I believe you have misunderstood me, TrueBeliever. I believe that Jesus Christ, the Son of God, was known as Jehovah in the Old Testament. I believe His Father was (and is today) known as Elohim. They are separate and distinct persons, both of whom share the title of "God." I see no contradictions between what I believe and what the Bible teaches. You're not going to change my mind, so I suggest you not waste your time.

Ok - I just don't understand how you can say you have several separate and distinct persons both of which are God, and yet still think you only have one God. To me that is a contradiction, but we are all free to believe what we want.

 

[Katzpur]

Ok - I just don't understand how you can say you have several separate and distinct persons both of which are God, and yet still think you only have one God. To me that is a contradiction, but we are all free to believe what we want.

Oh, is that what you're trying to get at? I didn't realize. Well, I'll try to explain, but I may not be able to find the time for a day or so.

 

[Muffled]

Good reasoning, Katzpur!

I believe I have pointed out the flaws in that kind of reasoning. There are no contradictions.

 

[Muffled]

Very good questions! The truth should be obvious: that Jesus and God are separate. Jesus was 'sent by' God, to be our Savior. John 3:16; John 17:3.

The first-cent. Christians understood this. Did they worship Jesus? No. In fact, they called Him, God's "Servant". Acts of the Apostles 4:24-30.

I believe people who don't know how to reason correctly or don't want to say things are obvious. So you are obviously wrong.

 

[Muffled]

God is the Father, Son and Holy Spirit...I don't see the contradiction...the triune nature of God. There is one God...the Holy Spirit is one aspect of God as is Christ.

I believe I do not see it as an aspect. I believe it is something that God does that has a great deal of significance. I would not view the parting of the Red Sea as an aspect of God either but simply something that God did.

 

[1213]

...Can God be tempted by the Devil, his own creation? ....

Biblical answer to that is:

Let no man say when he is tempted, "I am tempted by God," for God can't be tempted by evil, and he himself tempts no one.
James 1:13

 

[Muffled]

Biblical answer to that is:

Let no man say when he is tempted, "I am tempted by God," for God can't be tempted by evil, and he himself tempts no one.
James 1:13

I believe it is not good to just quote a verse and not show the reasoning.

I believe the reasoning should go like this:

The devil tried to tempt Jesus to do evil.
Jesus is God
So the verse says in effect that Jesus can't be tempted to do evil.