If Jesus was God, explain this verse...

[Muffled]

Truebeleiver said "This is what I believe. First - There is no Trinity."

I believe your belief has no reasonable basis.

I believe you have listed your religion as apostolic. Is that an organized religion and what is taught by it or are you holding a personal opinion?

 

[TrueBeliever37]

So God is going to send Himself? Jesus is talking about 2 different beings here.

John 14:26 (ESV Strong's) 26 But the Helper, the Holy Spirit, whom the Father will send in my name, he will teach you all things and bring to your remembrance all that I have said to you.

Jesus didn't say, GIVE, He said SEND.

Well, it does say in Acts 2:16-17 It shall come to pass in the last days, saith God that I will pour out my Spirit on all flesh

Acts 2:38 ... and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Spirit.

Acts 5:32 ... also the Holy Spirit, whom God hath given to them that obey him.

Luke 11:13 ...shall your heavenly Father give the Holy Spirit to them that ask him?

As far as 2 different beings - It sounds like you believe in multiple Gods. If you have 2 different beings that are both God, that is more than 1 God.

As far as John 14:26 - Keep reading and compare with John 15:26 But when the Comforter is come, whom I will send unto you ...

also John 14:17-18 I will not leave you comfortless: I will come to you. (The Holy Spirit dwelling in the Messiah was with them and would soon be in them.)

 

[TrueBeliever37]

Truebeleiver said "This is what I believe. First - There is no Trinity."

I believe your belief has no reasonable basis.

I believe you have listed your religion as apostolic. Is that an organized religion and what is taught by it or are you holding a personal opinion?

I thought this was a scriptural debate. Where is your scripture?

The reasonable basis for what I believe was the scriptures I gave. If you don't accept scriptures as a reasonable basis then I guess we don't have much more to discuss.

Just because you don't believe something doesn't make it false. Prove what I said was wrong - tell which points you disagree with and give scriptures to refute it.

I don't intend to give out personal information about myself.

 

[djhwoodwerks]

Jesus didn't say, GIVE, He said SEND.

I don't believe I understand what your point is since it make sense that it isn't a gift but a sending as foretold.

You're first few words were correct!

Acts 2:38 (ESV Strong's) 38 And Peter said to them, “Repent and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the forgiveness of your sins, and you will receive the gift of the Holy Spirit.

Acts 10:45 (ESV Strong's) 45 And the believers from among the circumcised who had come with Peter were amazed, because the gift of the Holy Spirit was poured out even on the Gentiles.

 

[Kenny]

I believe the plural here does not support the Trinity, but the plural as the omnipotent power of God singular. This use of the plural is common in the OT.

Yes.... there are different interpretations, but when taken with the whole of the rest of what the prophets and apostles said, we have come to the conclusion that, like man, there are three parts to the one person. Each distinct in materiality and purpose yet together form the oneness of who God or we are.

 

[shunyadragon]

Yes.... there are different interpretations, but when taken with the whole of the rest of what the prophets and apostles said, we have come to the conclusion that, like man, there are three parts to the one person. Each distinct in materiality and purpose yet together form the oneness of who God or we are.

I consider that conclusion contrived and forced in contradiction with the Old Testament.

 

[Faithofchristian]

Matthew 4:1 Then was Jesus led up of the Spirit into the wilderness to be tempted of the devil.

If Jesus was God, why was he tempted by the Devil? Can God be tempted by the Devil, his own creation?

Granted, he passed the test. But if he was God... Why was there a test in the first place? Does God need to test himself?

Are God and Jesus really one in the same? Please answer logically how this is possible given the verse above.

The reason why Jesus was tempted in the wilderness by the Devil, because where Adam failed in the garden of Eden being tempted by the Devil, Jesus conquered the Devil in the wilderness.to regain control over the earth back from the Devil.

To answer your question, is Jesus and God one and the same?

Hopefully this will answer your questions,
God loves you and me and everyone else.

Sin is the breaking of God's law.
The penalty of breaking God's law was death.and blood had to be given for breaking God's law.
God loves all His creation, so God made himself a body to be sacrifice for your sin and my and all the sins of the world.

God could haved destroyed everyone here on this Earth, but instead of destroying everyone. God came and gave himself, instead you dieing. You and me and all humans are his children.

God came down here inside of the body of Jesus. If God came here himself, we all would die to look upon the face of God.

So God made himself a body to cover Himself so that we could see him without dieing.
God gave the body and blood of Jesus for your sin and my sin and all the world's sin.
For the law of God's calls that the blood had to given for the penalty of breaking God's law.

Can God die, No that is silly, No God can not die. Only the body of Jesus died. God being inside of the body of Jesus did not die. Only Jesus flesh body died. God can not die.
Look when you die, your body of flesh dies. You have a Spirit inside of your body that returns back to God.
A person body lays in the ground and returns back to dust of the ground.
But the spirit that is inside the body returns back to God.

Look a woman that wears the Burka, the burka covers her, ok. You can not see her, because the burka covers her.

So in like manner The body of Jesus is a covering for God. You can not see God. Because Jesus body is covering God.Ok

Look a woman that is going to have a baby.Ok
you can not see the baby inside of the woman. Because the woman's body is covering the baby so you can not see the baby.
You see the body of Jesus is covering God, you can not see God, for the body of Jesus is covering God.
The baby is inside of the woman
God is inside of Jesus

The woman's body is covering the baby
Jesus body is covering God

You can not see the baby, for the woman's body is covering the baby.
You can not see God, for the body of Jesus is covering God.

The baby is inside of the woman
God is inside of the body of Jesus.

Look we are flesh and blood, if we were to look at God we would die, Because God is Holy Righeous.

So God came down here in the body of Jesus so that we would not die to see him.

Hope this helps you to understand, that how Jesus and Almighty God are the same person.

 

[Katzpur]

God could haved destroyed everyone here on this Earth, but instead of destroying everyone. God came and gave himself, instead you dieing. You and me and all humans are his children.

God came down here inside of the body of Jesus. If God came here himself, we all would die to look upon the face of God.

So God made himself a body to cover Himself so that we could see him without dieing.
God gave the body and blood of Jesus for your sin and my sin and all the world's sin.
For the law of God's calls that the blood had to given for the penalty of breaking God's law.

Can God die, No that is silly, No God can not die. Only the body of Jesus died. God being inside of the body of Jesus did not die. Only Jesus flesh body died. God can not die.
Look when you die, your body of flesh dies. You have a Spirit inside of your body that returns back to God.
A person body lays in the ground and returns back to dust of the ground.
But the spirit that is inside the body returns back to God.

The baby is inside of the woman
God is inside of the body of Jesus.

Look we are flesh and blood, if we were to look at God we would die, Because God is Holy Righeous.

So God came down here in the body of Jesus so that we would not die to see him.

Hope this helps you to understand, that how Jesus and Almighty God are the same person.

I'm sure you realize that if God Almighty and Jesus Christ were the same "Person," we'd have all kinds of contradictions in the Bible. Jesus frequently prayed to His Father in Heaven while He was here on Earth and referred to His Father as being "in Heaven." If they were the same Person, He'd have been praying to Himself. Why would He have done that? Why would He have compared Himself to His Father and said that the Father is Greater than the Son? After all, there can be no comparison if there is only one Person. When Jesus died, He commended His spirit into His Father's Hands. Are you saying He commended His spirit into His own hands? And when Stephen looked into Heaven and saw "the Son of Man standing on the right hand of God," do you believe he was just seeing double? He saw two Beings, two Persons, not just one. I mean, seriously, I could give you dozens upon dozens of examples proving that the Father is not the Son and that the Son is not the Father. I suspect you'd just dismiss them, though. I don't understand how people can just ignore the many, many, many occasions in which we see in the scriptures an interaction between two individual Persons.

 

[Faithofchristian]

I'm sure you realize that if God Almighty and Jesus Christ were the same "Person," we'd have all kinds of contradictions in the Bible. Jesus frequently prayed to His Father in Heaven while He was here on Earth and referred to His Father as being "in Heaven." If they were the same Person, He'd have been praying to Himself. Why would He have done that? Why would He have compared Himself to His Father and said that the Father is Greater than the Son? After all, there can be no comparison if there is only one Person. When Jesus died, He commended His spirit into His Father's Hands. Are you saying He commended His spirit into His own hands? And when Stephen looked into Heaven and saw "the Son of Man standing on the right hand of God," do you believe he was just seeing double? He saw two Beings, two Persons, not just one. I mean, seriously, I could give you dozens upon dozens of examples proving that the Father is not the Son and that the Son is not the Father. I suspect you'd just dismiss them, though. I don't understand how people can just ignore the many, many, many occasions in which we see in the scriptures an interaction between two individual Persons.

Look as it is written, Jesus is our example, everything that Jesus did was an example for us to follow.
When Jesus prayed to the Father, Jesus was sitting forth the example as to how we are to pray to the Father.

When Jesus said, For my Father is greater than I. John 14:28.

For the Father is greater than Jesus is in the flesh.
While Jesus was here on earth in the flesh and blood, The Father was greater than Jesus was in the flesh here on earth.

When Jesus was in the garden praying with blood coming down his face. Jesus by example showing how to pray by not ceasing even at the point of death.

Everything Jesus did while here on earth, Jesus was sitting an example for us to follow.
As a child did you ever watch others as to how they prayed ? And try to pray as to how they were praying ?

Therefore Jesus as being our example, was sitting forth how we are to pray to the Father.

Also Take Note. That when Jesus was in the garden praying, Jesus did not go to the temple to pray. But by example Jesus was showing that we to can pray in places, besides going to a temple to pray.

For the Father will always hear his children no matter where they pray.

 

[Katzpur]

While I agree with most of what you've said, I don't really think you have addressed the contradictions I mentioned in my post. You even added another one when you said:

When Jesus said, For my Father is greater than I. John 14:28.

For the Father is greater than Jesus is in the flesh.
While Jesus was here on earth in the flesh and blood, The Father was greater than Jesus was in the flesh here on earth.

How can someone be greater than himself. If the Father and the Son are the "same Person," as you insist is the case, it is impossible for one to be greater than the other. Simply impossible. Now, if you had said they were "one God," I would not be disagreeing with you, as there are different ways of interpreting the phrase "one God." But "one Person"? Nope.

And @Saint Frankenstein, I'm surprised to see that you voted Faithofchristian's post a "Winner." I thought Catholics believed the Father, Son and Holy Ghost/Holy Spirit were one God but three Persons. (Welcome back to Christianity, by the way.)

 

[Saint Frankenstein]

And @Saint Frankenstein, I'm surprised to see that you voted Faithofchristian's post a "Winner." I thought Catholics believed the Father, Son and Holy Ghost/Holy Spirit were one God but three Persons. (Welcome back to Christianity, by the way.)

Hi. I don't know about that poster's theological views and didn't mean to endorse their particular Christology. I just agree with their idea that Christ is an example for us.

Oh, and thank you. Lovely to see you. God bless!

 

[Faithofchristian]

While I agree with most of what you've said, I don't really think you have addressed the contradictions I mentioned in my post. You even added another one when you said:

How can someone be greater than himself. If the Father and the Son are the "same Person," as you insist is the case, it is impossible for one to be greater than the other. Simply impossible. Now, if you had said they were "one God," I would not be disagreeing with you, as there are different ways of interpreting the phrase "one God." But "one Person"? Nope.

And @Saint Frankenstein, I'm surprised to see that you voted Faithofchristian's post a "Winner." I thought Catholics believed the Father, Son and Holy Ghost/Holy Spirit were one God but three Persons. (Welcome back to Christianity, by the way.)

Look when Jesus was here in the flesh, God is always greater than those who are in the flesh.
The same with Jesus, while Jesus was here in the flesh, God was greater than Jesus was here in the flesh.

Look God can do all things, including coming here in the body of Jesus.

Look what is impossible with man, is not impossible with God, for God can do all things. including being in the body of Jesus.

 

[Katzpur]

Look when Jesus was here in the flesh, God is always greater than those who are in the flesh.
The same with Jesus, while Jesus was here in the flesh, God was greater than Jesus was here in the flesh.

Look God can do all things, including coming here in the body of Jesus.

Look what is impossible with man, is not impossible with God, for God can do all things. including being in the body of Jesus.

I'm sorry, but you're just not making any sense. You just got through saying that Jesus Christ and God are the same person and then followed that up by saying that this person was greater than himself. I'm sure you know what you're trying to say, but I can assure you that it's getting lost somewhere in the translation!

 

[Muffled]

I thought this was a scriptural debate. Where is your scripture?

The reasonable basis for what I believe was the scriptures I gave. If you don't accept scriptures as a reasonable basis then I guess we don't have much more to discuss.

Just because you don't believe something doesn't make it false. Prove what I said was wrong - tell which points you disagree with and give scriptures to refute it.

I don't intend to give out personal information about myself.

I don't believe I need scripture to refute a statement not backed up by scripture.

I believe the scriptures you gave support a Trinity so with your mouth you say one thing but with the scriptures the opposite.

Here you have Father and Son:
Joh 5:18 For this cause therefore the Jews sought the more to kill him, because he not only brake the sabbath, but also called God his own Father, making himself equal with God.

Here is the Paraclete:
John 14:26 But the Comforter, even the Holy Spirit, whom the Father will send in my name, he shall teach you all things, and bring to your remembrance all that I said unto you.

 

[Muffled]

Yes.... there are different interpretations, but when taken with the whole of the rest of what the prophets and apostles said, we have come to the conclusion that, like man, there are three parts to the one person. Each distinct in materiality and purpose yet together form the oneness of who God or we are.

I believe that is technically incorrect. God does not have parts. He is One.

I believe God is not material. The creed does say one substance but that is to distinguish from being nothing not to say the He is material.

I believe they are one in purpose because they have on will. Jesus also has the will of the flesh but the flesh is not God.

I believe that is correct. The Father, Son and Paraclete are one God.

 

[Muffled]

I'm sure you realize that if God Almighty and Jesus Christ were the same "Person," we'd have all kinds of contradictions in the Bible. Jesus frequently prayed to His Father in Heaven while He was here on Earth and referred to His Father as being "in Heaven." If they were the same Person, He'd have been praying to Himself. Why would He have done that? Why would He have compared Himself to His Father and said that the Father is Greater than the Son? After all, there can be no comparison if there is only one Person. When Jesus died, He commended His spirit into His Father's Hands. Are you saying He commended His spirit into His own hands? And when Stephen looked into Heaven and saw "the Son of Man standing on the right hand of God," do you believe he was just seeing double? He saw two Beings, two Persons, not just one. I mean, seriously, I could give you dozens upon dozens of examples proving that the Father is not the Son and that the Son is not the Father. I suspect you'd just dismiss them, though. I don't understand how people can just ignore the many, many, many occasions in which we see in the scriptures an interaction between two individual Persons.

I believe I do not agree.

I believe this concept is false. He does pray to Himself so it is not a contradiction.

I believe for the same reason that the world was created by words and that is that words have power when an almighty God is speaking them.

Are you saying that the Father has hands? I believe He does not so the statement is metaphoric.

I believe it is because the Son has a body and the Father does not.

I believe the comparison is not between God and God but between God in a body and God not in a body.

I believe he saw a vision and that can be whatever God wants it to be.

I believe you can only provide dozens of specious arguments that don't hold water.

I believe that makes a lot of sense, Why would anyone accept specious arguments?

I believe that is because they don't exist.

 

[Katzpur]

I believe I do not agree.

I believe this concept is false. He does pray to Himself so it is not a contradiction.

I believe for the same reason that the world was created by words and that is that words have power when an almighty God is speaking them.

Are you saying that the Father has hands? I believe He does not so the statement is metaphoric.

I believe it is because the Son has a body and the Father does not.

I believe the comparison is not between God and God but between God in a body and God not in a body.

I believe he saw a vision and that can be whatever God wants it to be.

I believe you can only provide dozens of specious arguments that don't hold water.

I believe that makes a lot of sense, Why would anyone accept specious arguments?

I believe that is because they don't exist.

I'm reading this to say that you believe the Father and the Son are the same Person. Is that right?

 

[TrueBeliever37]

I'm sure you realize that if God Almighty and Jesus Christ were the same "Person," we'd have all kinds of contradictions in the Bible. Jesus frequently prayed to His Father in Heaven while He was here on Earth and referred to His Father as being "in Heaven." If they were the same Person, He'd have been praying to Himself. Why would He have done that? Why would He have compared Himself to His Father and said that the Father is Greater than the Son? After all, there can be no comparison if there is only one Person. When Jesus died, He commended His spirit into His Father's Hands. Are you saying He commended His spirit into His own hands? And when Stephen looked into Heaven and saw "the Son of Man standing on the right hand of God," do you believe he was just seeing double? He saw two Beings, two Persons, not just one. I mean, seriously, I could give you dozens upon dozens of examples proving that the Father is not the Son and that the Son is not the Father. I suspect you'd just dismiss them, though. I don't understand how people can just ignore the many, many, many occasions in which we see in the scriptures an interaction between two individual Persons.

The flesh is weak and crying out or praying to the Spirit. The flesh is not greater than the eternal Spirit. The interaction is between the flesh and the Spirit.

 

[Katzpur]

The flesh is weak and crying out or praying to the Spirit. The flesh is not greater than the eternal Spirit. The interaction is between the flesh and the Spirit.

Perhaps it would be best if we just agreed to disagree on this particular matter, as it appears we're not really having any kind of a real dialogue here.

 

[TrueBeliever37]

I don't believe I need scripture to refute a statement not backed up by scripture.

I believe the scriptures you gave support a Trinity so with your mouth you say one thing but with the scriptures the opposite.

Here you have Father and Son:
Joh 5:18 For this cause therefore the Jews sought the more to kill him, because he not only brake the sabbath, but also called God his own Father, making himself equal with God.

Here is the Paraclete:
John 14:26 But the Comforter, even the Holy Spirit, whom the Father will send in my name, he shall teach you all things, and bring to your remembrance all that I said unto you.

My post #1296 gave a lot of scriptural proof. You just didn't include it before your response, which makes it look like it wasn't backed up by scripture.

Give some scripture to refute what I have said instead of just saying you don't believe it.

You say God is a Trinity, while John 4:24 says God is a Spirit. Who should I believe?

As far as John 5:18 - I didn't say there wasn't a Father and Son. I said the Father is the Holy Spirit, and the Son is the body of flesh he dwelt in and sacrificed for the sins of the world.

As far as John 14:26 - Keep reading and compare it with John 15:26 When the Comforter comes whom I will send to you ... Notice who would send the Holy Spirit in both verses. Is there a conflict? - No, not if you know and understand the truth.

Also, look at John 14:18 - I will not leave you comfortless, I will come to you.