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If Jesus was God, explain this verse...

Discussion in 'Scriptural Debates' started by Aamer, Jul 25, 2013.

  1. djhwoodwerks

    djhwoodwerks Well-Known Member

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    No, because for it to be answered, someone would have to admit he/she was wrong.
     
  2. djhwoodwerks

    djhwoodwerks Well-Known Member

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    In most cases? Just the ones you can make sense out of right? If it doesn't sound right to you, it is wrong?

    I think you and savagewind should get together and rewrite the Bible the way it should have been written. You both seem to believe you know more than the scholars and translators thru the years knew.
     
  3. moorea944

    moorea944 Well-Known Member

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    First of all, satan can be a person and not personified. And I"m not saying everything is personified... But, what does the word "satan" mean?... You say it's a fallen angel, evil devil type of thing. Wasnt Peter called satan by Jesus too? In Hebrew, the word means, adversary. That's all, simple language. So why are you changing that?......

    Compelled to open a box and pull out a personification tool? First of all, you need to read the whole chapter on what they are talking about. Just dont read one verse. You take things literal on every verse I guess. You need to understand that God speaks with complexity. There are many odd parables or allegories without any explanations. Literal, figurative, allegories, etc, etc. You really need to understand what is what. Plus, what does the org Hebrew or Greek word actually mean? Which I see your having a hard time with that one too. (angels that sin, satan, Lucifer, etc...)
    There is a great significance to this intentional complexity throughout the Bible. This is not accidental.
     
  4. moorea944

    moorea944 Well-Known Member

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    Wow, have some decaf buddy!!!!
     
  5. Unveiled Artist

    Unveiled Artist Seriously?

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    Let me ask, cause I haven't seen this said before,

    In the OT the Isrealites and Levites sacrificed animals so their sin are forgiven. The animals is a scapegoat for their sins so god can forgive them by that animals blood. (Hebrews 13:11-13; Numbers 6:14 among others) It's a mirror of the human Christ who Christians are doing the same to a human as the Isrealites to an animal.

    The Isrealites did not say that the animal needed to be god in order for their sins to be forgiven by the sacrificial act. The animal was still a full fledged animal that god gave the Isrealites to keep sacred in specific ways and to be slain later to forgive their sins and god can see them clean in his eyes.

    Jesus is no different. He isn't an animal; he is fully human. He isn't god. God gave Jesus in the same manner of his method of forgiveness to the Isrealites. The animal was "innocent" just as Christ. It was also used as sacrifice just as Christ. The former did not need to be god or have god's essence in order for it to do to be used as a sacrifice for one's sins.

    Jesus is no different. That is why The Church is careful not to drop the sacrificial meal (and so forth) because, like the OT, there are different methods to keep the sacrifice "clean" in until the sacrificial act has been made.

    The animal is not god. Jesus never said he was god. God never said he is Jesus.

    Union-means two things joining as one as a husband and wife. If a husband and wife are married, do they become each other? If so, do they become the wife or the husband? It's a union.

    There is no "Jesus is god" in the Bible. If there is, I overlooked it.

    How can you read into something that literally and even by written English translation is not there?
     
    #905 Unveiled Artist, Sep 25, 2016
    Last edited: Sep 25, 2016
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  6. Ingledsva

    Ingledsva HEATHEN ALASKAN

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    You folks continually take verses out of context, and understanding.

    Verse 2 and 3 lead to verse 4. They are not asking for another God, or God son.

    They are saying they have no understanding or knowledge, thus WHO among them - humans - can claim to do those things. Who is this magician? What is his son's name? In other words you won't be able to come up with anyone. Only YHVH can do these things.

    Pro 30:2 Surely I am more brutish than any man, and have not the understanding of a man.

    Pro 30:3 I neither learned wisdom, nor have the knowledge of the holy.

    Pro 30:4 Who hath ascended up into heaven, or descended? who hath gathered the wind in his fists? who hath bound the waters in a garment? who hath established all the ends of the earth? what is his name, and what is his son's name, if thou canst tell?

    Pro 30:5 Every word of God is pure: he is a shield unto them that put their trust in him.

    Pro 30:6 Add thou not unto his words, lest he reprove thee, and thou be found a liar.

    Pro 30:7 Two things have I required of thee; deny me them not before I die:

    Pro 30:8 Remove far from me vanity and lies: give me neither poverty nor riches; feed me with food convenient for me:

    Pro 30:9 Lest I be full, and deny thee, and say, Who is YHVH? or lest I be poor, and steal, and take the name of my Elohiym in vain.

    Pro 30:6 Add thou not unto his words, lest he reprove thee, and thou be found a liar.

    *
     
  7. ukok102nak

    ukok102nak Active Member

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    ancient as the word itself until they called it the true christians
    ~;> as far as what we've seen here
    its in the context of the bible itself
    but then again probably your just out of your mind
    if we may say so

    They are saying they have no understanding or knowledge,
    this words of yours is nonsense
    thats why we pause and stop reading your arguments starting to this of writting of yours
    (and also actually we cant stop laughing about that coz it really tickles a lot)
    all the time you never think first before
    writting a comment with your own interpretation unto something
    that you dont even understand
    and
    it looks like your opinion was lame also
    same as those
    system of biblical interpretation taught by man
    compared unto the knowledge and wisdom of solomon
    which came from god itself

    as the saying goes
    so as it is written
    :read:
    Proverbs 30:4
    Who has gathered the wind in his fists?
    Who has bound the waters in his garment?
    Who has established all the ends of the earth?
    What is his name, and what is his son's name, if you know?
    5 "Every word of God is flawless.
    He is a shield to those who take refuge in him.
    6 Do not add to his words,
    lest he reprove you, and you be found a liar.

    yeah in the written words of god
    on the very written context of the bible itself
    it says
    Every word of God is flawless.
    He is a shield to those who take refuge in him.
    :rofl: AND YOU SAID

    THATS WHY WE KEEP ON LAUGHING UNTO THIS ARGUMENTS OF YOURS BECAUSED YOU EVEN TWISTED THE VERY LOGIC ITSELF BUT YOU FAILED TO AMUSE US
    BUT THATS FINE WITH US
    COZ YOU MAKE US LAUGH VERY MUCH THATS WHY WE FORGIVE YOU
    JUST BETTER LUCK NEXT TIME
    OK NEXT

    just imagine also how job and everyone that were been asked by god and
    think why god asked them who thinks they are knowledgable and also thought they understand about everything but failed to answer a simple question
    and again
    it happeneds long before
    you invented that opinion of yours

    by the way
    its a terrible thing to think that those minds were been wasted unto someone
    such as you who cling only to
    a system of biblical interpretation taught by man


    :ty:




    godbless
    unto all alway


     
    #907 ukok102nak, Sep 25, 2016
    Last edited: Sep 25, 2016
  8. Ingledsva

    Ingledsva HEATHEN ALASKAN

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    What I said was absolutely correct. There is no evil angel called Lucifer in Tanakh. In fact no one is named Lucifer in Tanakh.

    To "reveal" is to show something already there, - that we didn't see. You folks are not "revealing," - you are taking Tanakh ONE God verses, and adding crap to them - and then claiming they are somehow about Jesus. Baloney!

    "Inspiration" is your religious ideas. But You folks are taking another religion, and claiming you know more about it than the writers, and say it speaks of Jesus, - which is bull.

    Of course they HAD many Gods, - however they then made a ONE God covenant with YHVH.

    You folks can argue all you want that your trinity God isn't polytheism, but that doesn't fool the rest of us.

    Your scriptures have all three acting individually at the same time. Three different beings.

    Luk 3:22 And the 1.Holy Ghost descended in a bodily shape like a dove upon 2. him (Jesus,) and 3. a voice came from heaven, which said, Thou art my beloved Son; in thee I am well pleased.

    And different thrones in your Heaven! Why would ONE need two thrones once back in Heaven, - if they aren't individuals??????????? Not!

    Jesus prays to God. You think he was praying to himself? A little odd don't you think?

    *
     
    #908 Ingledsva, Sep 26, 2016
    Last edited: Sep 26, 2016
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  9. Ingledsva

    Ingledsva HEATHEN ALASKAN

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    MY! MY! MY! Not only do you not understand the text, - you don't understand what I said!

    *
     
  10. Ingledsva

    Ingledsva HEATHEN ALASKAN

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    Jesus wasn't perfect. He could have been in perfect alignment with God's teachings and will, - and still be an imperfect human.

    He incites riots at Temples, flings around a whip in anger, more then once, - rather than teaching why, calls people derogatory names like dog and fool, and possibly has guerrilla fighters in his entourage that pack short fighting swords, etc.

    Add to this that the Bible does not actually say he is God, - and you have a human. A human whom claims to be the awaited Jewish Messiah. And the Messiah was supposed to be a special HUMAN from the Line of David.

    *
     
  11. Ingledsva

    Ingledsva HEATHEN ALASKAN

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    [​IMG]
     
  12. ukok102nak

    ukok102nak Active Member

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    ancient as the word itself until they called it the true christians
    ~;> YOUR YOUR YOUR
    just out of your mind
    YOUR ONLY USING THE BIBLE FOR YOUR OWN AGENDA
    COZ YOU WERE SAYING YOUR ARGUMENTS IN THE BIBLE
    WITHOUT HAVIN AN UNDERSTANDIN UNTO THE VERY WRITTEN WORDS OF GOD

    ALSO
    YOU CANT EVEN UNDERSTAND THE CONTEXT THAT IS WRITTEN IN
    THE BOOK OF PROVERBS
    AND
    YOU CANT EVEN UNDERSTAND
    WHAT EVERYONE IS SAYING HERE ABOUT THE WRITTEN OF WORDS OF GOD ITSELF

    yeah in the written words of god
    on the very written context of the bible
    WHICH IS WRITTEN IN
    THE BOOK OF PROVERBS
    that says
    Every word of God is flawless.
    He is a shield to those who take refuge in him.
    :rofl: AND YOU SAID

    THATS WHY WE KEEP ON LAUGHING
    AGAIN
    UNTO THIS ARGUMENTS OF YOURS BECAUSED YOU EVEN TWISTED THE VERY LOGIC ITSELF BUT YOU FAILED TO AMUSE US
    BUT THATS FINE WITH US
    COZ YOU MAKE US LAUGHED AGAIN
    VERY MUCH
    THATS WHY WE FORGIVE YOU AGAIN
    JUST BETTER LUCK NEXT TIME
    AGAIN

    by the way
    YOUR SENTIMENT IS SO LAME AND WEAK AND NOT JUST YOUR ARGUMENTS REGARDING THE BIBLE
    Not only do you not understand the text,
    - you don't understand
    HOW TO DEFINE
    THE BOOK OF PROVERBS
    BY A SIMPLE LOGIC AND COMMON SENSE
    and
    instead
    a system of biblical interpretation taught by man
    YOU WANT TO SPREAD HERE
    THATS WHY
    YOU FAILED AGAIN
    YOU MISARABLE CREATURE OF GOD

    (this words was been said
    by a fellow atheist of ours
    he is saying this coz he dont believe that humans were created by god/gods
    he used this term not to insult anyone
    but to tell the truth about you
    and probably your accepting this statement coz your a creature created by god)
    OK NEXT


    :ty:




    godbless
    unto all always


     
  13. djhwoodwerks

    djhwoodwerks Well-Known Member

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    Why did Jesus have to "actually say", "I Am God" for it to be true? He didn't leave enough hints for you folk?

    John 14:6-7 (ESV Strong's) 6 Jesus said to him, “I am the way, and the truth, and the life. No one comes to the Father except through me. 7 If you had known me, you would have known my Father also. From now on you do know him and have seen him.”

    John 14:8-9 (ESV Strong's) Philip said to him, “Lord, show us the Father, and it is enough for us.” 9 Jesus said to him, “Have I been with you so long, and you still do not know me, Philip? Whoever has seen me has seen the Father. How can you say, ‘Show us the Father’?

    Philip asked to see the Father, and Jesus said, "I have been with you all this time and you still don't know Me?"
     
  14. KenS

    KenS Face to face with my Father
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    I was just trying to figure out a way that would in some limited sense (not perfect) your logic isn't progressive.

    In the Christian understanding, much of the Old Testament is a type and a shadow of Jesus and/or Jesus and the Body of Christ. An analogy of sorts and therefore the picture of the animal can equal the sacrifice of Jesus even thought he isn't an animal.
     
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  15. Unveiled Artist

    Unveiled Artist Seriously?

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    This is my post in a nutshell. It's animal sacrifice, and the blood of the animal covers sins just as the blood of Christ. One being animal, the other human.

    The thing about the Church is, that is why the Church takes so much care to not drop Jesus, the sacrificial lamb. It's the same as the OT in how the Levites where told how to take care of the sacrifice that the Isrealites where not allowed to go near or they'd die.
     
  16. moorea944

    moorea944 Well-Known Member

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    Jesus never said nor hinted that he was God at anytime. The trinity has nothing to do with scripture and was put in my man. Put in religion around 325AD When you believe in false doctrine, you will make the bible or any book for that matter, into what you want it to be.
    Paul even starts most of his lettes that God is the God and father of Jesus? Col. tells us that he is the image of God. Never God himself. Everyone knew Jesus as a man. The son of God and the son of man.

    Jesus was God manifest. But he wasnt God himself. Scripture tells us that Jesus was like us. Same nature, inheritied sin nature from Adam through Mary. God always worked through his son. Jesus perfectly manifested his father charactor and will. The things that God would have done, Jesus did. Jesus carries the name of his father at all times and showed that to the apostles and everyone. He had every right to say those words.

    Same thing. Jesus represented his father. God was in his son. He had every right to say that.
     
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  17. Hockeycowboy

    Hockeycowboy Well-Known Member
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    You are right, Aamer....Christians need to base their beliefs squarely on the Scriptures, and not how they feel about it.

    John 1:18 did it for me, helping me realize that Jesus isn't God. Then, I wondered about John 1:1, but found out that the grammar of Koine Greek, the language in which it was written, is completely different from English, regarding definite ("the") and indefinite ("a, an") articles.

    It can be tricky, but a person should know these things if one truly wants to know the Bible writers' intentions. If more than one meaning can be derived from a passage, then the meaning that harmonizes with the other Scriptures is the one that should be considered truth.

    All of this does require a certain amount of study.
     
  18. NoGuru

    NoGuru Don't be serious. Seriously

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    Sorry I'm late to the party... did I miss the free drinks?

    There's a few points here I'd like to make.

    @moorea944 :
    I'd agree that many a scripture is metaphorical in nature. For example, when Jesus speaks of farming or cultivating land, is he really talking about plants and what grows in the ground? I contend that no, he's speaking more in the way of how our thoughts manifest action.

    "By their fruits ye shall know them"
    Again, he wasn't giving farming advice (although it still applies). He was speaking metaphorically.

    @djhwoodwerks
    You can't interpret all scripture as literal. Remember that religion has been used throughout the ages as a means to control man. You can't honestly believe that the Bible and Christianity have been immune to these things? How is that King James rejected translations when he himself was not a speaker of the Hebrew language? Some things were done on purpose to be used as a means to control. Think of the mark of the beast... will everyone have a literal 666 tattooed on their hands? Surely not. This must be metaphorical as well.

    Et al,
    This is not to say that all scripture is simply gibberish, nor does it mean that no scripture has value. We all interpret things in our own way, but it would be prudent to remember that not all scripture should be taken literal, and it really depends on how it improves our lives and brings us closer to God... whatever that God is for you, whatever their name, it takes much reflection and silence to discern if the message brings us closer to that source of greatness or draws us away by way of distraction with worldly things. When I saw worldly, I simply mean physical... no sin, no judgement... each (wo)man must take their own personal journey. That will take them across many paths, many experiences. Those experiences could be called sin by another, while be considered righteous by another. The old "One mans freedom fighter is another's terrorist" adage.

    Back to the topic; if Jesus were God, how could he be tempted?
    That's a great question... I question why God would allow the beating of a slave (Exodus 21:20-21).
    To be honest, I don't know. I choose to accept this is just another example of how religion is used as a control tool. If you say God says it's okay... well that makes it okay. I'm obviously no authority for God... hell maybe he does think it's okay to beat a slave... how am I to know? I can't justify it though, nor is it something I'd teach my children, therefore I can't imagine God would approve.

    Your beliefs are those of your own. I would personally advise simply accepting what feels right. In the sense that you shouldn't steal from another, or kill another, what makes sense?
     
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  19. Ingledsva

    Ingledsva HEATHEN ALASKAN

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    Well as usual, you have called me names and claimed I know nothing.

    Isn't it interesting that you don't instead put forth actual rebuttal?

    This speaks volumes.

    *
     
  20. Ingledsva

    Ingledsva HEATHEN ALASKAN

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    You conveniently leave out 14:10 which shows God does the work - not Jesus.

    This in no way says Jesus is God, nor is Jesus saying he is God.

    It very specifically says God is within him, and GOD does the works.

    Joh 14:5 Thomas saith unto him, Lord, we know not whither thou goest; and how can we know the way?

    Joh 14:6 Jesus saith unto him, I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man cometh unto the Father, but by me.

    Joh 14:7 If ye had known me, ye should have known my Father also: and from henceforth ye know him, and have seen him.

    Joh 14:8 Philip saith unto him, Lord, shew us the Father, and it sufficeth us.

    Joh 14:9 Jesus saith unto him, Have I been so long time with you, and yet hast thou not known me, Philip? he that hath seen me hath seen the Father; and how sayest thou then, Shew us the Father?

    Joh 14:10 Believest thou not that I am in the Father, and the Father in me? the words that I speak unto you I speak not of myself: but the Father that dwelleth in me, he doeth the works.

    Joh 14:11 Believe me that I am in the Father, and the Father in me: or else believe me for the very works' sake.

    *
     
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