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If Jesus is God why doesn't the Bible say so?

Muffled

Jesus in me
To me, Jesus is divine because the pre-human Jesus came from heaven when God sent Jesus from heaven to earth.
However, Jesus is Not God, but still thinks he has a God over him according to Revelation 3:12.
And as gospel writer John wrote about Jesus at Revelation 1:5 that Jesus is the beginning of the creation by God according to Revelation 3:14 b. Only God had No beginning according to Psalms 90:2. So, Jesus was Not before the beginning as God was before the beginning.

I do not believe in a pre existent Jesus. I believe the Spirit of God that is in Jesus has always existed.

I believe that is contrary to what He says.


I believe that verse does not say that.

I believe He is that because Jesus is both God and man.

I believe that is correct and true of the Spirit of God in Jesus.

However the bottom line is that it doesn't change the fact that Jesus is God.
 

moorea944

Well-Known Member
I do not believe in a pre existent Jesus. I believe the Spirit of God that is in Jesus has always existed.

I believe that is contrary to what He says.


I believe that verse does not say that.

I believe He is that because Jesus is both God and man.

I believe that is correct and true of the Spirit of God in Jesus.

However the bottom line is that it doesn't change the fact that Jesus is God.

I believe He is that because Jesus is both God and man.
I'm trying to figure out why anyone would even want to believe this. Both God and man at the same time. Think about it. Is that something that you really want to believe in? Even though it's not even mentioned in scripture? But doesnt scripture tell us that Jesus was like us?

I believe that is correct and true of the Spirit of God in Jesus.
God's Spirit is in us too, doesnt make us both God and man.

However the bottom line is that it doesn't change the fact that Jesus is God.
But Jesus isnt God. There is no verse in scripture that says.... "Jesus is God". It tells us that he is the son of God and the son of man. David is also his father, even Jesus says that. So where do you get this Jesus is God thing....... interesting.....

Didnt Jesus have to conquer sin? Didnt Jesus die? People saw him too. Jesus was also baptised and needed salvation. A God needs that too? I hope your not being told all this in church...
..
The trinity totally degrades our Creator. Esp, having someone co-equal with Him. The bible also tells us that there are no other Gods beside Him..... Why are you changing that?
 

Ultimatum

Classical Liberal
Your own description says Muslim Islamic Surfism. So if that is not correct maybe you should change it. And yes, YOU ARE explaining Christianity but in a way many Christians may not agree with. The Father and the Son both together make up God. Any other explanation is false.

I've never seen such a totalling of Jesus = Elohim as this thread, and this is all you can come up with?

You've lost the argument, get over it.
 

lostwanderingsoul

Well-Known Member
Sorry but there is no argument and nothing to get over. I am sure there are many things you have never seen but that does not make them false. There is one God but that one God is made up of the Father and the Son. Many people believe there is a third part to God so they believe in a trinity. But either way God is made up of more than one part..
 

Muffled

Jesus in me
I'm trying to figure out why anyone would even want to believe this. Both God and man at the same time. Think about it. Is that something that you really want to believe in? Even though it's not even mentioned in scripture? But doesnt scripture tell us that Jesus was like us?


God's Spirit is in us too, doesnt make us both God and man.


But Jesus isnt God. There is no verse in scripture that says.... "Jesus is God". It tells us that he is the son of God and the son of man. David is also his father, even Jesus says that. So where do you get this Jesus is God thing....... interesting.....

Didnt Jesus have to conquer sin? Didnt Jesus die? People saw him too. Jesus was also baptised and needed salvation. A God needs that too? I hope your not being told all this in church...
..
The trinity totally degrades our Creator. Esp, having someone co-equal with Him. The bible also tells us that there are no other Gods beside Him..... Why are you changing that?

I believe my desire is to always believe what is true. Maybe I could make more sense out of your figuring if I knew what you thought was undesirable.

I believe that is not true. Of course I believe it is in scripture and thereby true.

I can't remember a verse but if you have one I will peruse it. How about this one: John 8:40 But now ye seek to kill me, a man that hath told you the truth,

I believe God is in everything but that is not what I am talking about. I am talking about residence and control of the mind. I do not believe that is true for you because you are Jewish. It is true for me but my spirit is also present and in control at times but Jesus does not have a human spirit residing with the Spirit of God. So effectively I am God also when God is in control of my mind as would be the case now.

I believe both are true. David is father of the human Jesus and Jehovah is Father of the divine Jesus.

I believe I am not sure what the reference is about.

I believe Jesus did not die but Jesus ended up dead. The Spirit of God left before the body died.

I don't know what planet you come from. Jesus did not need salvation because He never sinned. His baptism wasn't about that.

I believe you can say this until you are blue in the face but it will never become true just because you say so.

I believe that is the null hypothesis. You have to show good reason why Jesus should say this.

I have been to many churches and none of them are perfect but I could only hope they preach this in church.

I believe that is blasphemy on your part and also is not true. It may very well be degradation of your part though to rob God of His divinity and call Him just a man.


I believe I am not.
 

Muffled

Jesus in me
Sorry but there is no argument and nothing to get over. I am sure there are many things you have never seen but that does not make them false. There is one God but that one God is made up of the Father and the Son. Many people believe there is a third part to God so they believe in a trinity. But either way God is made up of more than one part..

I believe that is not true. God is one and does not have parts. There is a concept of God being in three parts but it is not His natural state. As the Nicene Creed says God is one substance.
 

lostwanderingsoul

Well-Known Member
The Nicene creed also says, I believe in the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit. And these three are all God. So whether you say three parts or three persons or whatever it is still one God. Maybe the Father and Son are both the same substance. In fact it says they are con-sunstancial.
 

moorea944

Well-Known Member
I believe my desire is to always believe what is true. Maybe I could make more sense out of your figuring if I knew what you thought was undesirable.

I believe that is not true. Of course I believe it is in scripture and thereby true.

I can't remember a verse but if you have one I will peruse it. How about this one: John 8:40 But now ye seek to kill me, a man that hath told you the truth,

I believe God is in everything but that is not what I am talking about. I am talking about residence and control of the mind. I do not believe that is true for you because you are Jewish. It is true for me but my spirit is also present and in control at times but Jesus does not have a human spirit residing with the Spirit of God. So effectively I am God also when God is in control of my mind as would be the case now.


I believe both are true. David is father of the human Jesus and Jehovah is Father of the divine Jesus.

I believe I am not sure what the reference is about.

I believe Jesus did not die but Jesus ended up dead. The Spirit of God left before the body died.

I don't know what planet you come from. Jesus did not need salvation because He never sinned. His baptism wasn't about that.

I believe you can say this until you are blue in the face but it will never become true just because you say so.

I believe that is the null hypothesis. You have to show good reason why Jesus should say this.

I have been to many churches and none of them are perfect but I could only hope they preach this in church.

I believe that is blasphemy on your part and also is not true. It may very well be degradation of your part though to rob God of His divinity and call Him just a man.


I believe I am not.


If Jesus possessed an immortal spirit nature then he would not need salvation. He would simply discard the inconvenient and bothersome human disguise and return to the far more pleasant nature.

Romans 8v16/17
16 "The Spirit itself beareth witness with our spirit, that we are the children of God:
17 And if children, then heirs; heirs of God, and joint-heirs with Christ; if so be that we suffer with him, that we may be also glorified together."

Jesus is co-inheritor of God with us. One cannot inherit himself, as would be the case if we accept the concept of the trinity. We inherit God, as Jesus already has. Jesus was raised fro his cursed human nature to the blessed spirit nature of the Creator, which is the hope of all true believers. Jesus was the firstfruits. He paved the way. He became the door for our entry. Jesus inherited the nature of his Father first, inviting us to follow.

Heb 2v9-11
9 "But we see Jesus, who was made a little lower than the angels for the suffering of death, crowned with glory and honour; that he by the grace of God should taste death for every man.
10 For it became him, for whom are all things, and by whom are all things, in bringing many sons unto glory, to make the captain of their salvation perfect through sufferings.
11 For both he that sanctifieth and they who are sanctified are all of one: for which cause he is not ashamed to call them brethren,"

God made the captain of our salvation (Jesus Christ) perfect through suffering. In other words, Jesus was not perfect until he suffered. (A God suffers?, nope.)

Heb 1v3-4
3 "Who being the brightness of his glory, and the express image of his person, and upholding all things by the word of his power, when he had by himself purged our sins, sat down on the right hand of the Majesty on high;
4 Being made so much better than the angels, as he hath by inheritance obtained a more excellent name than they."

We are told that Jesus became superior to the angels AFTER purging our sins. He was also given a more exellent name (by inheritance) and sits at God's right hand. These are impossible descriptions of God himself or even a pre-existant lead angel.

Heb 5v5-9
5 "So also Christ glorified not himself to be made an high priest; but he that said unto him, Thou art my Son, to day have I begotten thee.
6 As he saith also in another place, Thou art a priest for ever after the order of Melchisedec.
7 Who in the days of his flesh, when he had offered up prayers and supplications with strong crying and tears unto him that was able to save him from death, and was heard in that he feared;
8 Though he were a Son, yet learned he obedience by the things which he suffered;
9 And being made perfect, he became the author of eternal salvation unto all them that obey him;"

Jesus feared death and prayed to the one able to save him. Jesus was obedient. He was made perfect and thereby became the author of eternal salvation. This is impossible language for the trinity or an immortal spirit-nature-being that temporarily inhabited a mortal shell for the purpose of being in the "pretend" image and likeness of mankind.

Jesus needed salvation because he began his existence as a human being suffering under the same curse of sin and death passed down from Adam and Even. Scripture tells us that Jesus was like us in every way!!!
 

moorea944

Well-Known Member
I believe my desire is to always believe what is true. Maybe I could make more sense out of your figuring if I knew what you thought was undesirable.

I believe that is not true. Of course I believe it is in scripture and thereby true.

I can't remember a verse but if you have one I will peruse it. How about this one: John 8:40 But now ye seek to kill me, a man that hath told you the truth,

I believe God is in everything but that is not what I am talking about. I am talking about residence and control of the mind. I do not believe that is true for you because you are Jewish. It is true for me but my spirit is also present and in control at times but Jesus does not have a human spirit residing with the Spirit of God. So effectively I am God also when God is in control of my mind as would be the case now.


I believe both are true. David is father of the human Jesus and Jehovah is Father of the divine Jesus.

I believe I am not sure what the reference is about.

I believe Jesus did not die but Jesus ended up dead. The Spirit of God left before the body died.

I don't know what planet you come from. Jesus did not need salvation because He never sinned. His baptism wasn't about that.

I believe you can say this until you are blue in the face but it will never become true just because you say so.

I believe that is the null hypothesis. You have to show good reason why Jesus should say this.

I have been to many churches and none of them are perfect but I could only hope they preach this in church.

I believe that is blasphemy on your part and also is not true. It may very well be degradation of your part though to rob God of His divinity and call Him just a man.


I believe I am not.


I believe Jesus did not die but Jesus ended up dead. The Spirit of God left before the body died.
That makes no sense at all. Scripture tells us that Jesus died. How can you not die and end up dead.

I don't know what planet you come from. Jesus did not need salvation because He never sinned. His baptism wasn't about that.
That's because you believe in the trinity. You already make Jesus God.

I believe that is the null hypothesis. You have to show good reason why Jesus should say this.
Say what......

It may very well be degradation of your part though to rob God of His divinity and call Him just a man.
Again...... your miss quoting me. I never robbed God of his divinity and called him just a man. God is not a man. Bible is clear on that. But Jesus was. And since Jesus is not God, but the image of him. What goes through your mind when you read the verses that tell us that Jesus was like us?........ That he is the son of God, not God the son. Made lower than the angels, etc, etc..... Dont you feel embarrassed in believing in a false system like the trinity? I would.....
 

Muffled

Jesus in me
That makes no sense at all. Scripture tells us that Jesus died. How can you not die and end up dead.


That's because you believe in the trinity. You already make Jesus God.


Say what......


Again...... your miss quoting me. I never robbed God of his divinity and called him just a man. God is not a man. Bible is clear on that. But Jesus was. And since Jesus is not God, but the image of him. What goes through your mind when you read the verses that tell us that Jesus was like us?........ That he is the son of God, not God the son. Made lower than the angels, etc, etc..... Dont you feel embarrassed in believing in a false system like the trinity? I would.....

I believe you have trouble seeing Jesus as anything but a body. That means you worship a zombie, a soulless being. I believe Jesus is body and the Holy Spirit therefore if the Spirit leaves all that is left is not Jesus but just the body of Jesus. The Holy Spirit left before it could experience the death of the body.

I believe it is because I am reading and understanding the scripture with the help of the Holy Spirit. I believe I am making nothing that isn't there.

I believe you have to show evidence. A lack of evidence is not evidence.

I believe I am never embarrassed by the truth of God.
 

Muffled

Jesus in me
If Jesus possessed an immortal spirit nature then he would not need salvation. He would simply discard the inconvenient and bothersome human disguise and return to the far more pleasant nature.

Romans 8v16/17
16 "The Spirit itself beareth witness with our spirit, that we are the children of God:
17 And if children, then heirs; heirs of God, and joint-heirs with Christ; if so be that we suffer with him, that we may be also glorified together."

Jesus is co-inheritor of God with us. One cannot inherit himself, as would be the case if we accept the concept of the trinity. We inherit God, as Jesus already has. Jesus was raised fro his cursed human nature to the blessed spirit nature of the Creator, which is the hope of all true believers. Jesus was the firstfruits. He paved the way. He became the door for our entry. Jesus inherited the nature of his Father first, inviting us to follow.

Heb 2v9-11
9 "But we see Jesus, who was made a little lower than the angels for the suffering of death, crowned with glory and honour; that he by the grace of God should taste death for every man.
10 For it became him, for whom are all things, and by whom are all things, in bringing many sons unto glory, to make the captain of their salvation perfect through sufferings.
11 For both he that sanctifieth and they who are sanctified are all of one: for which cause he is not ashamed to call them brethren,"

God made the captain of our salvation (Jesus Christ) perfect through suffering. In other words, Jesus was not perfect until he suffered. (A God suffers?, nope.)

Heb 1v3-4
3 "Who being the brightness of his glory, and the express image of his person, and upholding all things by the word of his power, when he had by himself purged our sins, sat down on the right hand of the Majesty on high;
4 Being made so much better than the angels, as he hath by inheritance obtained a more excellent name than they."

We are told that Jesus became superior to the angels AFTER purging our sins. He was also given a more exellent name (by inheritance) and sits at God's right hand. These are impossible descriptions of God himself or even a pre-existant lead angel.

Heb 5v5-9
5 "So also Christ glorified not himself to be made an high priest; but he that said unto him, Thou art my Son, to day have I begotten thee.
6 As he saith also in another place, Thou art a priest for ever after the order of Melchisedec.
7 Who in the days of his flesh, when he had offered up prayers and supplications with strong crying and tears unto him that was able to save him from death, and was heard in that he feared;
8 Though he were a Son, yet learned he obedience by the things which he suffered;
9 And being made perfect, he became the author of eternal salvation unto all them that obey him;"

Jesus feared death and prayed to the one able to save him. Jesus was obedient. He was made perfect and thereby became the author of eternal salvation. This is impossible language for the trinity or an immortal spirit-nature-being that temporarily inhabited a mortal shell for the purpose of being in the "pretend" image and likeness of mankind.

Jesus needed salvation because he began his existence as a human being suffering under the same curse of sin and death passed down from Adam and Even. Scripture tells us that Jesus was like us in every way!!!

I believe there is no evidence that Jesus ever had a sin nature.

I believe I didn't find that scripture so you will have to quote it so I can read and comprehend it.

I don't believe it is. There is no evidence that it is.


I believe there is nothing to say that He is pretending to be in a body. The scripture indicates He was in a body.
 

moorea944

Well-Known Member
I believe there is no evidence that Jesus ever had a sin nature.

I believe I didn't find that scripture so you will have to quote it so I can read and comprehend it.

I don't believe it is. There is no evidence that it is.


I believe there is nothing to say that He is pretending to be in a body. The scripture indicates He was in a body.
That is because you believe in a false doctrine like the trinity. That is why you cant see it, even when it is in scripture.
 

DavidFirth

Well-Known Member
Question: "Is Jesus God? Did Jesus ever claim to be God?"

Answer:
The Bible never records Jesus saying the precise words, “I am God.” That does not mean, however, that He did not proclaim that He is God. Take for example Jesus’ words in John 10:30, “I and the Father are one.” We need only to look at the Jews’ reaction to His statement to know He was claiming to be God. They tried to stone Him for this very reason: “You, a mere man, claim to be God” (John 10:33). The Jews understood exactly what Jesus was claiming—deity. When Jesus declared, “I and the Father are one,” He was saying that He and the Father are of one nature and essence. John 8:58 is another example. Jesus declared, “I tell you the truth … before Abraham was born, I am!” Jews who heard this statement responded by taking up stones to kill Him for blasphemy, as the Mosaic Law commanded (Leviticus 24:16).

John reiterates the concept of Jesus’ deity: “The Word [Jesus] was God” and “the Word became flesh” (John 1:1, 14). These verses clearly indicate that Jesus is God in the flesh. Acts 20:28 tells us, “Be shepherds of the church of God, which he bought with his own blood.” Who bought the church with His own blood? Jesus Christ. And this same verse declares that God purchased His church with His own blood. Therefore, Jesus is God!

Thomas the disciple declared concerning Jesus, “My Lord and my God” (John 20:28). Jesus does not correct him. Titus 2:13 encourages us to wait for the coming of our God and Savior, Jesus Christ (see also 2 Peter 1:1). In Hebrews 1:8, the Father declares of Jesus, “But about the Son he says, ‘Your throne, O God, will last forever and ever, and righteousness will be the scepter of your kingdom.’” The Father refers to Jesus as “O God,” indicating that Jesus is indeed God.

In Revelation, an angel instructed the apostle John to only worship God (Revelation 19:10). Several times in Scripture Jesus receives worship (Matthew 2:11; 14:33; 28:9, 17; Luke 24:52; John 9:38). He never rebukes people for worshiping Him. If Jesus were not God, He would have told people to not worship Him, just as the angel in Revelation did. There are many other passages of Scripture that argue for Jesus’ deity.

The most important reason that Jesus has to be God is that, if He is not God, His death would not have been sufficient to pay the penalty for the sins of the world (1 John 2:2). A created being, which Jesus would be if He were not God, could not pay the infinite penalty required for sin against an infinite God. Only God could pay such an infinite penalty. Only God could take on the sins of the world (2 Corinthians 5:21), die, and be resurrected, proving His victory over sin and death.
 

DavidFirth

Well-Known Member
John 14

5Thomas said to him, “Lord, we don’t know where you are going, so how can we know the way?”

6Jesus answered, “I am the way and the truth and the life. No one comes to the Father except through me. 7If you really know me, you will knowb my Father as well. From now on, you do know him and have seen him.”

8Philip said, “Lord, show us the Father and that will be enough for us.”

9Jesus answered: “Don’t you know me, Philip, even after I have been among you such a long time? Anyone who has seen me has seen the Father. How can you say, ‘Show us the Father’? 10Don’t you believe that I am in the Father, and that the Father is in me? The words I say to you I do not speak on my own authority. Rather, it is the Father, living in me, who is doing his work. 11Believe me when I say that I am in the Father and the Father is in me; or at least believe on the evidence of the works themselves. 12Very truly I tell you, whoever believes in me will do the works I have been doing, and they will do even greater things than these, because I am going to the Father. 13And I will do whatever you ask in my name, so that the Father may be glorified in the Son. 14You may ask me for anything in my name, and I will do it.
 

moorea944

Well-Known Member
Question: "Is Jesus God? Did Jesus ever claim to be God?"

Answer:
The Bible never records Jesus saying the precise words, “I am God.” That does not mean, however, that He did not proclaim that He is God. Take for example Jesus’ words in John 10:30, “I and the Father are one.” We need only to look at the Jews’ reaction to His statement to know He was claiming to be God. They tried to stone Him for this very reason: “You, a mere man, claim to be God” (John 10:33). The Jews understood exactly what Jesus was claiming—deity. When Jesus declared, “I and the Father are one,” He was saying that He and the Father are of one nature and essence. John 8:58 is another example. Jesus declared, “I tell you the truth … before Abraham was born, I am!” Jews who heard this statement responded by taking up stones to kill Him for blasphemy, as the Mosaic Law commanded (Leviticus 24:16).

John reiterates the concept of Jesus’ deity: “The Word [Jesus] was God” and “the Word became flesh” (John 1:1, 14). These verses clearly indicate that Jesus is God in the flesh. Acts 20:28 tells us, “Be shepherds of the church of God, which he bought with his own blood.” Who bought the church with His own blood? Jesus Christ. And this same verse declares that God purchased His church with His own blood. Therefore, Jesus is God!

Thomas the disciple declared concerning Jesus, “My Lord and my God” (John 20:28). Jesus does not correct him. Titus 2:13 encourages us to wait for the coming of our God and Savior, Jesus Christ (see also 2 Peter 1:1). In Hebrews 1:8, the Father declares of Jesus, “But about the Son he says, ‘Your throne, O God, will last forever and ever, and righteousness will be the scepter of your kingdom.’” The Father refers to Jesus as “O God,” indicating that Jesus is indeed God.

In Revelation, an angel instructed the apostle John to only worship God (Revelation 19:10). Several times in Scripture Jesus receives worship (Matthew 2:11; 14:33; 28:9, 17; Luke 24:52; John 9:38). He never rebukes people for worshiping Him. If Jesus were not God, He would have told people to not worship Him, just as the angel in Revelation did. There are many other passages of Scripture that argue for Jesus’ deity.

The most important reason that Jesus has to be God is that, if He is not God, His death would not have been sufficient to pay the penalty for the sins of the world (1 John 2:2). A created being, which Jesus would be if He were not God, could not pay the infinite penalty required for sin against an infinite God. Only God could pay such an infinite penalty. Only God could take on the sins of the world (2 Corinthians 5:21), die, and be resurrected, proving His victory over sin and death.



The most important reason that Jesus has to be God is that, if He is not God, His death would not have been sufficient to pay the penalty for the sins of the world .

It's actually the opposite!!!! Jesus was like us. What penalty are you talking about. Jesus didnt "pay" a penalty. It was out of love.
The secret of the cross is love, the love of God and the love of His Son. Whatever else we many have to consider, let us lay down this foundation: The motivating force for redemption is love,

John 3v16 "For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life."

Romans 5v8 "But God commendeth his love toward us, in that, while we were yet sinners, Christ died for us."

Gal. 2v20 "I am crucified with Christ: nevertheless I live; yet not I, but Christ liveth in me: and the life which I now live in the flesh I live by the faith of the Son of God, who loved me, and gave himself for me."
Love is the reason for redemption. Love flowed first from God and therefore from the Son whom He sent into the world. Love cannot be and must not be reduced to law or considered in terms of rights and earnings. Love owes nothing to any goodness or merit in us. Loves comes from God who is "merciful and graceious".

The cross is a source of the forgiveness of sins. It is not a debt settled by due payment. It is not a substitutionary offering whereby someone is paid a price so that others might then go free. No, the cross is the means of forgiveness and forgiveness is an act of grace and not of the rights or earnings by the settlement of a debt.

A created being, which Jesus would be if He were not God, could not pay the infinite penalty required for sin against an infinite God.

A few things wrong with that, is that Jesus WAS a created being. Scripture tells us that. He had to be the son of God and the son of man. Yes, he was born a man with the same nature as us.

Heb 4v15 "For we have not an high priest which cannot be touched with the feeling of our infirmities, but was in all points tempted like as we are, yet without sin."

2 Corin 5v21 "For he hath made him to be sin for us, who knew no sin, that we might be made the righteousness of God in him."

He had human nature; he shared every one of our sinful tendencies (Heb. 4:15), yet he overcame them by his commitment to God's ways and seeking His help to overcome sin. This God willingly gave, to the extent that "God was in Christ, reconciling the world unto Himself" through His very own Son (2 Cor. 5:19).

Because of his human nature, Jesus experienced minor illnesses, tiredness etc. just as we do. It therefore follows that if he had not died on the cross, he would have died any way of old age. In view of this, Jesus needed to be saved from death by God. Intensely recognizing this, Jesus "offered up prayers and supplications with strong crying and tears unto Him (God) that was able to save him from death, and was heard for his piety" (Heb. 5:7 A.V.). The fact that Christ had to plead with God to save him from death rules out any possibility of him being God in person. After Christ's resurrection, death had "no more dominion over him" (Rom. 6:9), implying that beforehand....... it did.

If Christ was God in nature and then left that behind and took human nature, as trinitarians attempt to interpret this passage, then Jesus was not "very God" while on earth, yet trinitarians believe that he was. This all demonstrates the contradictions which are created by subscribing to a man-made definition such as the trinity.

Jesus's mission was to save his brethren from their sins and in order to do that he had to be both son of God and Son of man.

He had to be Son of God because no man left to himself had or could achieve spotless rightousness as required by God as the basis for fogiveness. Perfection was attained by Jesus because (1) he inherited from his father a unique capacity for spiritual things, and (2) he was given unhindered access to God and he chose to accept it. Sonship of the Father conveyed an insight, an intimacy with His God, an unequalled knowledge of what was in man, fitting him eminently to be the Saviour - if only he chose to be so. Sonship did not make him sinless, but made sinlessness possible. And we see this in Luke 2v52, John 2v24-25, 5v19-20.

He had to be Son of man in order to inherit the consequences of Adam's transgressions, a weak and mortal nature "prone to sin", so that he might condemn sin. He had to be tempted in all points like us and yet be sinless in order to be the Saviour. Sin could only be condemned by one possessing the same flesh with its tendency to sin. (Heb. 2v14, 4v15, Rom. 8v3)

Only God could pay such an infinite penalty.

God does not pay any penalties. He is right in everything that he does.

Only God could take on the sins of the world , die, and be resurrected, proving His victory over sin and death.

Wow, God dies? God raised himself? You really might want to rethink this trinity thing.........
 

DavidFirth

Well-Known Member
It's actually the opposite!!!! Jesus was like us. What penalty are you talking about. Jesus didnt "pay" a penalty. It was out of love.
The secret of the cross is love, the love of God and the love of His Son. Whatever else we many have to consider, let us lay down this foundation: The motivating force for redemption is love,

John 3v16 "For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life."

Romans 5v8 "But God commendeth his love toward us, in that, while we were yet sinners, Christ died for us."

Gal. 2v20 "I am crucified with Christ: nevertheless I live; yet not I, but Christ liveth in me: and the life which I now live in the flesh I live by the faith of the Son of God, who loved me, and gave himself for me."
Love is the reason for redemption. Love flowed first from God and therefore from the Son whom He sent into the world. Love cannot be and must not be reduced to law or considered in terms of rights and earnings. Love owes nothing to any goodness or merit in us. Loves comes from God who is "merciful and graceious".

The cross is a source of the forgiveness of sins. It is not a debt settled by due payment. It is not a substitutionary offering whereby someone is paid a price so that others might then go free. No, the cross is the means of forgiveness and forgiveness is an act of grace and not of the rights or earnings by the settlement of a debt.



A few things wrong with that, is that Jesus WAS a created being. Scripture tells us that. He had to be the son of God and the son of man. Yes, he was born a man with the same nature as us.

Heb 4v15 "For we have not an high priest which cannot be touched with the feeling of our infirmities, but was in all points tempted like as we are, yet without sin."

2 Corin 5v21 "For he hath made him to be sin for us, who knew no sin, that we might be made the righteousness of God in him."

He had human nature; he shared every one of our sinful tendencies (Heb. 4:15), yet he overcame them by his commitment to God's ways and seeking His help to overcome sin. This God willingly gave, to the extent that "God was in Christ, reconciling the world unto Himself" through His very own Son (2 Cor. 5:19).

Because of his human nature, Jesus experienced minor illnesses, tiredness etc. just as we do. It therefore follows that if he had not died on the cross, he would have died any way of old age. In view of this, Jesus needed to be saved from death by God. Intensely recognizing this, Jesus "offered up prayers and supplications with strong crying and tears unto Him (God) that was able to save him from death, and was heard for his piety" (Heb. 5:7 A.V.). The fact that Christ had to plead with God to save him from death rules out any possibility of him being God in person. After Christ's resurrection, death had "no more dominion over him" (Rom. 6:9), implying that beforehand....... it did.

If Christ was God in nature and then left that behind and took human nature, as trinitarians attempt to interpret this passage, then Jesus was not "very God" while on earth, yet trinitarians believe that he was. This all demonstrates the contradictions which are created by subscribing to a man-made definition such as the trinity.

Jesus's mission was to save his brethren from their sins and in order to do that he had to be both son of God and Son of man.

He had to be Son of God because no man left to himself had or could achieve spotless rightousness as required by God as the basis for fogiveness. Perfection was attained by Jesus because (1) he inherited from his father a unique capacity for spiritual things, and (2) he was given unhindered access to God and he chose to accept it. Sonship of the Father conveyed an insight, an intimacy with His God, an unequalled knowledge of what was in man, fitting him eminently to be the Saviour - if only he chose to be so. Sonship did not make him sinless, but made sinlessness possible. And we see this in Luke 2v52, John 2v24-25, 5v19-20.

He had to be Son of man in order to inherit the consequences of Adam's transgressions, a weak and mortal nature "prone to sin", so that he might condemn sin. He had to be tempted in all points like us and yet be sinless in order to be the Saviour. Sin could only be condemned by one possessing the same flesh with its tendency to sin. (Heb. 2v14, 4v15, Rom. 8v3)



God does not pay any penalties. He is right in everything that he does.



Wow, God dies? God raised himself? You really might want to rethink this trinity thing.........

No, sir, I will not listen to you. If you reject the Gospel then you reject the Gospel.
 

DavidFirth

Well-Known Member
22Jews demand signs and Greeks look for wisdom, 23but we preach Christ crucified: a stumbling block to Jews and foolishness to Gentiles, 24but to those whom God has called, both Jews and Greeks, Christ the power of God and the wisdom of God. 25For the foolishness of God is wiser than human wisdom, and the weakness of God is stronger than human strength.
 

moorea944

Well-Known Member
No, sir, I will not listen to you. If you reject the Gospel then you reject the Gospel.

Who's rejecting the Gospel?........ And what is the Gospel to you?... I'm just rejecting the trinity, which has nothing to do with the bible or Gospel.
The Gospel is the things concerning the Kingdom of God. That's what Jesus preached. The apostles did the same and they preached about Jesus too. They also preached about the resurrection too. (Acts)

No one is "rejecting" the Gospel, just your version of it.
 

DavidFirth

Well-Known Member
Who's rejecting the Gospel?........ And what is the Gospel to you?... I'm just rejecting the trinity, which has nothing to do with the bible or Gospel.
The Gospel is the things concerning the Kingdom of God. That's what Jesus preached. The apostles did the same and they preached about Jesus too. They also preached about the resurrection too. (Acts)

No one is "rejecting" the Gospel, just your version of it.

So you accept the Gospel according to the NT?
 
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