1. Welcome to Religious Forums, a friendly forum to discuss all religions in a friendly surrounding.

    Your voice is missing! You will need to register to get access to the following site features:
    • Reply to discussions and create your own threads.
    • Our modern chat room. No add-ons or extensions required, just login and start chatting!
    • Access to private conversations with other members.

    We hope to see you as a part of our community soon!

Featured If Jesus Christ is Almighty God then why are we to pray to God through Jesus Christ?

Discussion in 'Scriptural Debates' started by Soapy, Jul 3, 2022.

  1. Dogknox20

    Dogknox20 Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Mar 21, 2020
    Messages:
    2,042
    Ratings:
    +193
    Religion:
    Catholic
    cOLTER good to meet you....Your words.... "a Spirit being who creates other subordinate spirit beings" yes, that. Those spirit beings can also be considered God.

    I reply: There is but ONE (1) God! Christians believe; Jesus is God!
    And....
    Nope you are wrong they are called "Angels"!
     
  2. Redemptionsong

    Redemptionsong Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Jun 2, 2014
    Messages:
    4,845
    Ratings:
    +608
    You must be saying that God is not in Christ because you reject the deity of Christ!

    Trinitarians accept the deity of Christ, Unitarians do not.
     
    • Like Like x 1
  3. cOLTER

    cOLTER Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Dec 19, 2020
    Messages:
    3,242
    Ratings:
    +986
    Religion:
    Disciple
    God can create as many divine Sons as he would like. But you can argue with him and explain that the things that you can't understand can't exist.
     
  4. Wildswanderer

    Wildswanderer Veteran Member

    Joined:
    Jun 17, 2021
    Messages:
    10,105
    Ratings:
    +2,117
    Religion:
    Christian
    Yes he's with everyone who is relying on him for salvation.
    That is the church. The rock is Peter's confession that Jesus is God.
     
    • Like Like x 1
  5. Soapy

    Soapy Son of his Father: The Heir and Prince

    Joined:
    Dec 21, 2019
    Messages:
    2,542
    Ratings:
    +244
    Religion:
    Christian
    Jesus is NOT THE CHURCH.

    Jesus is THE HEAD OF THE CHURCH.

    The CHURCH belongs to Almighty God: YHWH.

    • “And he is the head of the body, the church; he is the beginning and the firstborn from among the dead, so that in everything he may have the supremacy” (Col 1:18)
    • “To the church of God that is in Corinth…” (1 Cor 1:2)
    Knowing that ‘Church’ is just a word meaning ‘Congregation of like-minded persons’, will aid the understand.
     
  6. Soapy

    Soapy Son of his Father: The Heir and Prince

    Joined:
    Dec 21, 2019
    Messages:
    2,542
    Ratings:
    +244
    Religion:
    Christian
    No, not ‘God’, but, IN A CONTEXT, ‘GODS’.

    Angels are mighty in power and authority even greater than man ‘made in the image of God’ IN THIS PRESENT AGE AND TIME. They have GREAT POWERS and are fully authorised to exhibit those powers when needed. As such they are therefore obviously ‘Gods’ above all created things BUT under the Will of their creator, and WITHIN their own limited Will (Example: They gave Job time to try to get his family together despite their straight instruction to get the family out of Sodom. They also exercised their Will by giving way to Job’s request to go into the mountain rather than the town God instructed the angels to take them to! The Angel with the flaming sword chose not to kill Ahab but to reason with him for defying God’s command…!)

    Remember the definition is referring to a TITLE of an entity considered as contextually SUPREME (etc.). Therefore a person of humanity IN CONTEXT OF OTHER PERSONS OF HUMANITY can be considered as A GOD if that person (OR GODS if ‘THOSE PERSONS’!!!!) are MIGHTY IN DEEDS, powers, authorities, etc greater than others:
    • ‘A judge in the GOD in his courtroom’ (why is this applicable?)
    • ‘Lions are considered the GODS of all animals of the African plains” (question as above)
    • ‘A Chess Grandmaster is considered a GOD of his game’ (question as above!)
    • ‘A Father in his household (pre-wokeness) is considered as the God of that household’ (same…)
    • ‘Mankind is ‘GOD’ over the animal kingdom’ (same..!)
    But scriptures tells us that, ‘Though there are Gods … aplenty, for us [who believe the truth] there is only one God: The Father….’

    That is to say, as scriptures also says: ‘[He is GOD above all whom are called Gods’.

    IOW’s there is a pyramid, a heirachy, of greatness and supremacy of beings which culminates in ONE ULTIMATE GOD above and in all in context!
    Hence, even a judge in his courtroom is not GOD outside of it but gives way to the lawmakers of the land. And those lawmakers give way to international lawmakers, and …. By rights all should give way to the supreme one God but religious differences thwarts that ideal FOR HUMANITY!

    And though the lion is considered king of the beasts, it is obvious that mankind is ‘A God above’ the lion…

    The rest follows.
     
    #66 Soapy, Jul 8, 2022
    Last edited: Jul 8, 2022
  7. Soapy

    Soapy Son of his Father: The Heir and Prince

    Joined:
    Dec 21, 2019
    Messages:
    2,542
    Ratings:
    +244
    Religion:
    Christian
    Jesus is not deity. It’s as simple as that.

    It’s nothing to do with Unitarian or trinitarian or whateverarian… it is simply the truth.
     
  8. Redemptionsong

    Redemptionsong Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Jun 2, 2014
    Messages:
    4,845
    Ratings:
    +608
    If you do not believe that Jesus is worthy of service and worship then you are not a Christian! Christ is head of the Church.
     
    #68 Redemptionsong, Jul 8, 2022
    Last edited: Jul 8, 2022
  9. Soapy

    Soapy Son of his Father: The Heir and Prince

    Joined:
    Dec 21, 2019
    Messages:
    2,542
    Ratings:
    +244
    Religion:
    Christian
    Jesus is the head of GOD’s church: the congregation of believers.

    God appointed Jesus to be the head of His church.
    Jesus appoints the positions within the body of the church to those who are worthy of such positions (of course there will be ‘wolves in sheep’s clothing’ - appointments not commissioned by Jesus!)
     
  10. Redemptionsong

    Redemptionsong Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Jun 2, 2014
    Messages:
    4,845
    Ratings:
    +608
    Christ is head of the Church [Ephesians 5:23]. Christ is also the Rock! [1 Corinthians 10:4] So, if Christ is the Rock, then Christ is God! [Deuteronomy 32:4]
     
  11. Soapy

    Soapy Son of his Father: The Heir and Prince

    Joined:
    Dec 21, 2019
    Messages:
    2,542
    Ratings:
    +244
    Religion:
    Christian
    Jesus Christ is head of GOD’s church….

    The rest of what you said is desperate logic - illogic!

    Christ is not God. God is not Christ.

    ‘Christ’ means ‘Anointed one’. God is not anointed.

    An anointment is to be set aside (consecrated / Sanctified) for priesthood and/or Kingship. Do you see God being either? By whom would God be set aside by?
     
  12. Redemptionsong

    Redemptionsong Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Jun 2, 2014
    Messages:
    4,845
    Ratings:
    +608
    I've provided the scripture, but you seem unable to explain it. Simply saying that Christ is not God is a denial of the scriptural evidence.

    Where in scripture does it say that Christ is not God?
     
  13. 74x12

    74x12 Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Dec 2, 2017
    Messages:
    5,539
    Ratings:
    +1,715
    Religion:
    Itiswhatitis
    Same reason you pray to God through the holy Spirit.
     
  14. 74x12

    74x12 Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Dec 2, 2017
    Messages:
    5,539
    Ratings:
    +1,715
    Religion:
    Itiswhatitis
    You pray in the Spirit .. to God. Yet the Spirit is God. Same thing with the Son. You minister the ministry of priesthood with/by the Son of God.He's the high priest and the sacrifice. This is how you come to God through Christ; by application of his blood.
     
  15. Soapy

    Soapy Son of his Father: The Heir and Prince

    Joined:
    Dec 21, 2019
    Messages:
    2,542
    Ratings:
    +244
    Religion:
    Christian
    You did not supply a scripture verse which says that Jesus is God.

    The scriptures says:
    • “yet for us there is but one God, the Father, from whom all things came and for whom we live; and there is but one Lord, Jesus Christ, through whom all things came and through whom we live.” (1 Cor 8:6)
    Also the difference between God and mankind is shown here by analogy:
    • “I am the true vine, and my Father is the gardener. He cuts off every branch in me that bears no fruit, while every branch that does bear fruit he prunes so that it will be even more fruitful.“ (John 15:1-2)
    You will notice that ‘the gardener’ and ‘the vine … and ‘the branches’ are different objects. The same is with:
    • God (Spirit/Gardener) and with
    • Jesus (Sinless Human/Vine) and with
    • the believers (sinful human/Branches)
    Also, Jesus disputed with the Jews for claiming that Jesus called himself, ‘God’:
    • “Do you say of him whom the Father hath sanctified and sent into the world: Thou blasphemest, because I said, I am the Son of God? ” (John 10:36)
    Here, Jesus had just told the Jews that God is his Father. The Jews DESPITE THEMSELVES CLAIMING GOD AS THEIR FATHER claimed Jesus was ‘Making himself EQUAL TO (!!!??) God’ by saying he was the Son of God. Of course this is pure paganism which is from the types like Egyptians who claim their pharoahs were Gods because they viewed themselves as SONS OF THE GODS.

    In fact, i suspect that such a verse is not valid scriptures. In my research I asked many times for anyone to show me where the Jews ever claimed that ‘A Son is equal to his Father’ I received either NO ANSWERS or replies saying there was never any such claim.

    Can you do better?

    Can you answer as to why the Jews accused Jesus of claiming to be ‘EQUAL TO GOD’ just because Jesus said that ‘God is my Father’? And this, even as the Jews themselves claimed God is their Father … does this seem credible - does such a verse tie in with the belief of the Jews who throughout their history knew of only one God whom they called ‘Father’ (Their creator)?

    Oh, and, by the way, ‘Son’ means:
    • “He who fully does the Will of [He who gives him the command]’
    Jesus ‘fully’ carried out the Will of God, wherefore God called Jesus: ‘My Son’.

    The holy angels always carry out the Will of God, wherefore they too are called ‘Sons of God’.

    Jesus, in defending himself from the false accusations of the Jews told them:
    • “[I only said that God is my father…] If I am not doing the works of my Father then do not believe me…!”
    Here, Jesus is emphasising what it means to be ‘Son of God’ but the Jews fail to understand. However, they didn’t fail to understand the same when said to them by Jesus:
    • ‘You are sons of YOUR FATHER. He was a liar from the beginning…!’
    Of course Jesus mean that they were doing the bad deeds and works of Satan. The Jews did not think Jesus was saying that they were literally birthed by the satanic spirit given that awful name! How then are we supposed to believe that they claimed Jesus was EQUAL to God for being ‘Son of God’?

    And note carefully: Being EQUAL to something does not mean you ARE that something. If you think I’m wrong, give me an example of your thinking!

    Scriptures NEVER claims Jesus IS NOT GOD directly because NO ONE EVER CLAIMED Jesus WAS GOD….. no! Even The great trinitarian misinterpretation of Phil 2 does not claim Jesus is God because if misclaims that Jesus was ‘IN THE FORM OF GOD’ which, again, does not claim ‘IS GOD’. Testament is by the fact also that it says that Jesus did not think of being EQUAL TO GOD a thing to be GRASPED AT. Trintarians cannot understand that ‘Grasping’ for something does not mean it is already in hand … but means ‘Reaching out to TRY TO GRAB’.

    So, Jesus, though HAVING THE POWER OF GOD (by anointment with the Holy Spirit (Acts 10:37-38) did not seek to misuse that power but rather he humbled himself to be like ordinary man even to being killed on a cross (The taunt of ‘Physician save thyself’ is a clue as to what this means!!)
     
  16. Soapy

    Soapy Son of his Father: The Heir and Prince

    Joined:
    Dec 21, 2019
    Messages:
    2,542
    Ratings:
    +244
    Religion:
    Christian
    The Spirit is OF God.
     
  17. Redemptionsong

    Redemptionsong Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Jun 2, 2014
    Messages:
    4,845
    Ratings:
    +608
    I did supply a scriptural verse that demonstrates that Christ is God. You chose to ignore it!

    The fact is, there are numerous passages in scripture that demonstrate that Jesus Christ is given both titles and authority that only God possesses.

    Here is one such example:
    Isaiah 45:22-25. 'Look unto me, and be ye saved, all the ends of the earth: for l am God, and there is none else.
    I have sworn by myself, the word is gone out of my mouth in righteousness, and shall not return, That unto me every knee shall bow, every tongue shall swear.
    Surely, shall one say, in the LORD have l righteousness and strength; even to him shall men come; and all that are incensed against him shall be ashamed.
    In the LORD shall all the seed of Israel be justified, and shall glory.'

    If you read this passage carefully you will see that it is God, the LORD, to whom men come, and in whom they find righteousness and strength. True?

    Now read a corresponding passage in Philippians 2:9-11.
    'Wherefore God also hath highly exalted him [Jesus], and given him a name which is above every name:
    That at the name of Jesus every knee should bow, of things in heaven, and things in earth, and things under the earth;
    And that every tongue should confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father.'

    Think about this passage and its relation to lsaiah! God swears that 'unto me every knee shall bow and every tongue shall swear'. Yet, every knee bows to Christ, and every tongue confesses him as Lord!

    This means that the Son is God, equal in Spirit to the Father [see Philippians 2:6].
     
  18. Dogknox20

    Dogknox20 Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Mar 21, 2020
    Messages:
    2,042
    Ratings:
    +193
    Religion:
    Catholic
    Redemptionsong Good to meet you...
    I add:.. YES.. Trinitarians accept the deity of Christ, Christian are "Christ Followers!"

    The Anti-Christ is "Anti-Christian".... The Anti-Christ wants man to reject Jesus the God man! Those who reject the deity of Christ are also Anti-Christian they are doing the work of the Anti-Christ!
     
  19. Dogknox20

    Dogknox20 Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Mar 21, 2020
    Messages:
    2,042
    Ratings:
    +193
    Religion:
    Catholic
    .
    cOLTER hello again...
    I reply: God is a trinity.. Three (3)!
    The Body of Jesus "The Son" the second in the trinity is made up with billions of people that were IMMERSED (baptized) into his body!
    Look... 3000 people were ADDED to the Holy body of Jesus the God man the very first day of Pentecost!

    40 With many other words he warned them; and he pleaded with them, “Save yourselves from this corrupt generation.” 41 Those who accepted his message were baptized, and about three thousand were added to their number that day.
     
  20. Dogknox20

    Dogknox20 Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Mar 21, 2020
    Messages:
    2,042
    Ratings:
    +193
    Religion:
    Catholic
    .
    Wildswanderer I hope all is well....
    The ROCK... is what Jesus placed his One Holy Catholic Apostolic Church on! This means; the Church Jesus built cannot fail! IT MEANS....

    Wildswanderer
    it means Jesus' church does NOT need to be "Re-Formed" or "Re-Built" or "Re-Established" because it did not fail! No one has to come to Jesus' rescue and re-Build the Church Jesus failed to hold! All who protest against the ONLY Church Jesus established on ROCK want to believe "Satan had somehow overpowered Jesus and Satan TOOK Jesus' Holy Body from Jesus"! They want to believe Jesus built on SAND making "Jesus a Fool"!

    Matthew 7:26
    But everyone who hears these words of mine and does not put them into practice is like a foolish man who built his house on sand.

    Matthew 28:20
    teaching them to observe all things whatsoever I have commanded you. And lo, I am with you always, even unto the end of the world.”

    Wildswanderer Always means: Jesus started with his One Holy Catholic Apostolic Church, it means Jesus is STILL to this day with his One Holy Catholic Apostolic Church! I am with you always, even unto the end of the world.”
     
Loading...