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Featured If, it was proven beyond all doubt that a god existed. Would you worship it?

Discussion in 'General Religious Debates' started by Altfish, Oct 26, 2017.

  1. NewGuyOnTheBlock

    NewGuyOnTheBlock Cult Survivor

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    I find that quite arrogant and utterly self-centered for one to truly believe that the entire universe was created to cater to the free will of human beings.
     
  2. NewGuyOnTheBlock

    NewGuyOnTheBlock Cult Survivor

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    Some history into hell-belief may clarify this.

    Greek mythology presents a trilogy of afterlife possibilities: Elysium, Hades and Tarterus.

    Elysium was where sat Mount Olympus; and in this realm was an afterlife not much different than Happy Hunting Grounds or Heaven; a virtual paradise of celebration and peace, awarded to those who had lived "good" lives.

    Tarterus was that place created by Zeus where he cast the Titans after he overthrew Cronos. It is described as a burning lake of fire. Humans shared this place with the Titans if they had committed grievances deemed worthy of this eternal torment. It is nearly identical to the Nordic Hel.

    Hades was that place in between; where those who deserved neither heaven nor hell wandered about.

    Catholicism follows this pattern; where Elysium became Heaven, Tarterus became Hell and Hades became Pergatory; that place where we wait until the coming of Christ. This is why they pray for their dead; because even in Pergatory, there still remains hope to them that their loved ones may ascend to Heaven.

    Protestants removed Pergatory from the equation, making this a binary system of justice; and herein lies the confusion about what Hell is like, because two afterlives (Tarterus and Hades) are forcefully crammed into one option.
     
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  3. NewGuyOnTheBlock

    NewGuyOnTheBlock Cult Survivor

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    Ah, yes! The signs of the end times! One of the most clever pieces of manipulative writing!

    Please tell me a time in history where no one stood up and claimed to be a messiah.
    Please tell me a time in history when there were no wars.
    Please tell me a time in history when nations were not in conflict with each other.
    Please tell me a time in history where there were no earthquakes.
    Please tell me a time in history where there were no famines.
    Please tell me a time in history when no self-proclaimed guru/prophet ran his or her mouth about having some kind of divine knowledge and proselytized that others should follow them.
    Please tell me a time in history when there was no hate or betrayal of men against men.

    How can you expect anything different other than a world where no one stands up and claims to be a messiah, there are no wars, nations live in peace, there were no earthquakes or famines, hate and betrayal?

    The "signs of the times" is a list of things that always have been; and always will be.

    May as well have said, "Hey, guys checkitout; the signs of the end times are when the wind blows and there will be thunderstorms. Oh, did I mention floods and volcanic eruptions? Yep, thereyago."
     
  4. Mohsen

    Mohsen السلام عليكم ورحمة الله وبركاته

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    uhm, walk with me instead...

    It does for the one who is predisposed as you put it. Axiomatic belief is automatic!

    No, they are not. They are unnatural but touted by perverse minds as natural! Did your father rape your mother for you to be born? or - was it through consent that they did the deed? Now remember - the sound mind knows that the exception can never face the rule and win!

    Your definition of wrong needs work - I require an explanation of what you classify as being "wrong" and why... and know this, I will hold your logic to see if you can live up to it!

    peace
     
  5. URAVIP2ME

    URAVIP2ME Veteran Member

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    Wrong guesses or wrong calculations does Not make the Bible as wrong, but just the guesses as wrong.
    Please tell me a time in history that the good news of God's kingdom government of Daniel 2:44 has been proclaimed in the past on such a vast international scale as it is being done today. Done just as written at Matthew 24:14 and Acts of the Apostles 1:8. Even modern technology has made possible, as never before in history, having rapid Bible translation possible so that people living even in remote areas of Earth can have Scripture in their own mother tongue or native languages.

    Sure there have always been earthquakes, etc, and at Luke 21:11 Luke uses an adjective to describe the types of earthquakes we have today as "GREAT" earthquakes coupled with the other features of Luke chapter 21.

    There is nothing manipulative, as we are nearing the ' final phase ', so to speak, about having the global proclaiming about God's kingdom of Daniel 2:44 being done on such a vast international scale as never done before in history.
    There is nothing manipulative about the coming ' final signal ', so to speak, of 1 Thessalonians 5:2-3 about when ' they ' (powers that be) will be saying, " Peace and Security " as the precursor to the coming great tribulation of Revelation 7:14 before Jesus, as Prince of Peace, ushers in global Peace on Earth among persons of goodwill.
     
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  6. NewGuyOnTheBlock

    NewGuyOnTheBlock Cult Survivor

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    Interesting that you bring this up, as in your response, I got the gist that you are conflating "natural" with "moral" and "unnatural" with "wrong" or "immoral".

    "Rape" is wrong as it violates a person's consent and takes from that person the one thing in the world that is truly theirs and the only thing that will every be truly theirs: and that is, their bodies. It is wrong and immoral on so many levels ...

    ... but that does not make it "unnatural". We see many instances of what we would call "rape" in the natural world as a part of their mating processes. On the question of it being "natural", the answer is, "It is natural for some; as the propensity or desire to rape has complex psychological, environmental, and possibly genetic basis". That gives no one permission to proceed to commit this heinous act; but the fact that it is wrong, immoral and intolerable does not mean that it does not have a basis in nature; thus, it is natural.

    Belief does not create reality. There are pedophiles who truly believe that sexual interaction between adults and children is not wrong and does not harm children when performed under certain circumstances. That "belief", no matter how strongly held by this minority of the minority, does not form the reality.

    The same goes with God belief. Even if we are predisposed to believe in God, that does not make God reality; it only means that we are predisposed to believe in God.

    And here, you are conflating "natural" with "moral". They are not intrinsic, one with the other.

    To answer your question: Yes. My father raped my mother, who was his daughter, and that caused me to be conceived and born.

    Sexual intercourse between two consenting unrelated adults is equally natural but not exclusively so. And this is the sane and moral alternative.

    The actions of the man who sired me are detestable and caused lasting, excruciating harm to my poor Mamma, who never fully emotionally or psychologically recovered from her years of abuse. But the fact that his actions were intolerable, immoral, inexcusable and wrong (on so many levels) does not change the fact that his propensities and urges have naturalistic explanations; and thus those propensities and urges were natural.
     
  7. NewGuyOnTheBlock

    NewGuyOnTheBlock Cult Survivor

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    You missed the whole point entirely.

    "Today, many will die. Many will go hungry but many will be fed. There will be storms. There will be murders on the streets. The sun will shine. When these things come to pass, you will know that I, NewGuyOnTheBlock, am a prophet of God."

    The "prophecy" is infallible; the fact that these things will happen today is indisputable and there is no reason for anyone to proclaim NewGuyOnTheBlock as a font of wisdom or one who must be followed.

    It is as infallible as this:
    5 For many shall come in my name, saying, I am Christ; and shall deceive many.
    6 And ye shall hear of wars and rumours of wars: see that ye be not troubled: for all these things must come to pass, but the end is not yet.
    7 For nation shall rise against nation, and kingdom against kingdom: and there shall be famines, and pestilences, and earthquakes, in divers places.

    You guys love to tout these "prophesies" that appear to have become true; that's okay, so do Nostradaumus fans; but you conveniently ignore those that fail to come true, such as this exhaustive list:

    Genesis 26:4 And I will make thy seed to multiply as the stars of heaven, and will give unto thy seed all these countries; and in thy seed shall all the nations of the earth be blessed. (There are about 100 billion stars in the Milky Way alone).

    Isaiah 7:14 Therefore the Lord himself shall give you a sign; Behold, a virgin shall conceive, and bear a son, and shall call his name Immanuel. (Nowhere else in the Bible was Jesus referred to as "Immanuel").

    Isaiah 17:1 The burden of Damascus. Behold, Damascus is taken away from being a city, and it shall be a ruinous heap. (Damascus exists to this day)

    Isaiah 19:4-5 And the Egyptians will I give over into the hand of a cruel lord; and a fierce king shall rule over them, saith the Lord, the LORD of hosts. And the waters shall fail from the sea, and the river shall be wasted and dried up. (The Nile has yet to dry up)

    Ezekiel 29:10-11 Behold, therefore I am against thee, and against thy rivers, and I will make the land of Egypt utterly waste and desolate, from the tower of Syene even unto the border of Ethiopia. No foot of man shall pass through it, nor foot of beast shall pass through it, neither shall it be inhabited forty years. (In its conservative estimate of 3000 year existence, Egypt has never been uninhabited for 40 years; and I don't think its ever been uninhabited period).
     
  8. URAVIP2ME

    URAVIP2ME Veteran Member

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    Genesis 26:4 is in connection to Genesis 12:3 and Genesis 22:18.
    The explanation is found at Genesis 15:5 meaning descendants of Abraham would be many.
    There was No way for Abraham to count how many, just as we can Not count the grains of sand at the seashore.
    In other words, both stars and descendants are an unknown but meaning a plentiful number.

    Isaiah 7:14 Jesus was called by many names such as found at Isaiah 9:6.
    None of which were his personal name Jesus but rather prophetic title-names.
    Jesus measured up to the meaning of those title-names including Messiah as found in Daniel.

    Isaiah 17:1-11 I find corresponds to Jeremiah 49:23; Zechariah 9:1; 2 Kings 16:8-9; Amos 1:5 and Isaiah 8:4.

    Isaiah 19:4-5 (Isaiah 19:2,13-14). Chapter 19 Isaiah describes civil war and disintegration with the fighting of city against city and kingdom against kingdom in Egypt, in other words, contemporaneous dynasties ruling in different sections of the country at that time frame. The wisdom of Egypt, her valueless gods, did Not protect her from being delivered up into the hand of a hard master as per Isaiah 19:3-4.

    Ezekiel 29:10-11,13; Ezekiel 30:23; Jeremiah 46:19; Jeremiah 46:25-26 speaks of the devastation of Egypt 'from' Migdol to Syene and to the boundary of Ethiopia (Cush). Not all of Egypt or I don't see All of Egypt mentioned.
    So, 'from' Cush or ancient Ethiopia beyond Syene ( modern day Aswan ) thus it continued south possibly to modern Khartoum.
     
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  9. Muffled

    Muffled Jesus in me

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    I believe I can understand that. You are saying that sex is meaningless. I believe that fits in with a form of worship where a person mouths the words but the heart is far from God ar as some women put it they fake the orgasm.
     
  10. Muffled

    Muffled Jesus in me

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    I believe I wouldn't walk about in lightning storms if I were you.
     
  11. Muffled

    Muffled Jesus in me

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    I believe you do not get to be the judge of that since you are not able to judge righteously.
     
  12. Jesster

    Jesster Friendly skeptic
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    I believe you do not get to be judge of me since you are not able to judge Jessterly.

    Seriously though. I can judge whatever I want however I want. That's the beauty of having a mind and free will.
     
  13. URAVIP2ME

    URAVIP2ME Veteran Member

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    Sure, because of having free-willed choices I think we can judge whatever we want.
    Many even judge God's judgement standards as to whether God judges correctly.
    God's judgement is already recorded in Scripture for all to see.
    The judges of ancient Israel were to use God's recorded judgement to judge as to what was right or wrong.
    We can do likewise or not. What Jesus said about judgement was Not about judging God's judgement standards,
    but rather that we are Not make a personal judgement about a person's motives or simply to impute bad motives to another.
     
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  14. Jesster

    Jesster Friendly skeptic
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    I think I've already stated what I'm doing.
     
  15. URAVIP2ME

    URAVIP2ME Veteran Member

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    .....and I think that you believe what you are doing is by free-will choices.
    In other words, we both think what we are doing is not by being a programmed robot, etc, but of our own free will.
    We choose our thoughts as to what we will decide to think or choose for one's self, and to me that is a gift from our Creator.
     
  16. SalixIncendium

    SalixIncendium सच्चिदानन्द
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    If this isn't the case, then I'm thankful that I'm predestined to be snarky, because for some reason that I can't explain, it brings my joy.
     
  17. URAVIP2ME

    URAVIP2ME Veteran Member

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    Sounds to me that it is by your own free-will choice to be snarky because that brings you joy.
    If ' snarky ' did Not bring you joy would you still want to be snarky.
     
  18. SalixIncendium

    SalixIncendium सच्चिदानन्द
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    Yes, but I cannot share with you the reason, because leaving you guessing why my snarkiness brings me joy also brings me joy.
     
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  19. Jesster

    Jesster Friendly skeptic
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    What topic are we on again? I'm not sure if I'm getting red herrings all over the place or if I'm just not getting where you are going with any of this.
     
  20. URAVIP2ME

    URAVIP2ME Veteran Member

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    To me 'free will' gives us pause to reflect that God exists and a good reason to freely worship HIM.
     
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