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If heaven is perfect ...

buddhist

Well-Known Member
... then why does the Christian Bible say that the angels, who supposedly reside in heaven, find the need or want to mate with human women (Genesis 6:1-7)?

If the Christian heaven is not perfect, then why should man desire to reach it?
 

Smart_Guy

...
Premium Member
Angels desiring human women and man desiring to reach Heaven... I don't see those arguments mean Heaven is not perfect. Please explain.
 

George-ananda

Advaita Vedanta, Theosophy, Spiritualism
Premium Member
If the Christian heaven is not perfect, then why should man desire to reach it?
It's a hell of a lot better than Hell, the only other alternative:)

But in more seriousness, I think we need to modernize our thinking beyond ancient biblical scripture. The Bible does not stand up well to deep analysis of all the ramifications of what it says in my opinion.
 

Jonathan Ainsley Bain

Logical Positivist
It's a hell of a lot better than Hell, the only other alternative:)

But in more seriousness, I think we need to modernize our thinking beyond ancient biblical scripture. The Bible does not stand up well to deep analysis of all the ramifications of what it says in my opinion.

Like what for example?

Heaven has often been described in terms of degrees.
More heavenly realms tend towards perfection,
whereas other planes of existence tend towards more hellish extremes.
These two directions have often been described as existing in terms
of a 4-d directional plane of reference. A purely mathematical concept.

Various states of perfection and imperfection are true even within
the lives lived within our ordinary 3-d world.
 

Yoshua

Well-Known Member
... then why does the Christian Bible say that the angels, who supposedly reside in heaven, find the need or want to mate with human women (Genesis 6:1-7)?
Hi Buddhist,

If we look at Gen. 6:2, that the sons of God saw that the daughters of men were beautiful; and they took wives for themselves, whomever they chose, some said that the sons of God are referring to angels, but how come a spirit being took wives for themselves? An angel has no body (flesh).
Another thing is the sons of God are the family of Seth who took wives with the family of Cain. I believed this is far more likely that those two families were intermarried if we will based on its context.
If the Christian heaven is not perfect, then why should man desire to reach it?
Where did you get the notion that the heaven is not perfect? I believed that heaven is a perfect place to live because God resides in heaven. Man's desire to reach God or heaven is the cause of sin, a corrupted mind and heart which started in the Garden of Eden by the serpent.

Thanks
 

Neo Deist

Th.D. & D.Div. h.c.
... then why does the Christian Bible say that the angels, who supposedly reside in heaven, find the need or want to mate with human women (Genesis 6:1-7)?

If the Christian heaven is not perfect, then why should man desire to reach it?

Because humans wrote the stories about Heaven, based off of pre-existing stories of the afterlife. Numerous cultures across time and the earth have a "paradise" story.
 
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rusra02

Well-Known Member
Premium Member
... then why does the Christian Bible say that the angels, who supposedly reside in heaven, find the need or want to mate with human women (Genesis 6:1-7)?

If the Christian heaven is not perfect, then why should man desire to reach it?
The problem was not with heaven, but the wrong desires some angels allowed to grow within them. Adam and Eve enjoyed perfect life on earth (which I believe is really our everlasting home) but threw it away for the same reason, wrong desires that were nurtured into sinful actions. (James 1:14,15) The same steps lead people today to commit grevious sins, IMO.
 

George-ananda

Advaita Vedanta, Theosophy, Spiritualism
Premium Member
Like what for example?

Heaven has often been described in terms of degrees.
More heavenly realms tend towards perfection,
whereas other planes of existence tend towards more hellish extremes.
These two directions have often been described as existing in terms
of a 4-d directional plane of reference. A purely mathematical concept.

Various states of perfection and imperfection are true even within
the lives lived within our ordinary 3-d world.
This above is a pretty good understanding. My point was that if people were to sit down and just read the Bible, they would not get this clear picture you present.
 

buddhist

Well-Known Member
Angels desiring human women and man desiring to reach Heaven... I don't see those arguments mean Heaven is not perfect. Please explain.
In the Christian tradition, heaven is described as a state of perfection. However, if that it so, then angels, who supposedly reside in heaven, must have found it imperfect if they had other desires that exceeded that which was provided by heaven.
 

buddhist

Well-Known Member
It's a hell of a lot better than Hell, the only other alternative:)

But in more seriousness, I think we need to modernize our thinking beyond ancient biblical scripture. The Bible does not stand up well to deep analysis of all the ramifications of what it says in my opinion.
You're right, it is not suitable for deep analysis ... reminds me of the saying, "the best cure for Christianity is reading the Bible" - in my case, that was true, after reading the Bible in depth.
 

buddhist

Well-Known Member
Like what for example?

Heaven has often been described in terms of degrees.
More heavenly realms tend towards perfection,
whereas other planes of existence tend towards more hellish extremes.
These two directions have often been described as existing in terms
of a 4-d directional plane of reference. A purely mathematical concept.

Various states of perfection and imperfection are true even within
the lives lived within our ordinary 3-d world.
I agree regarding degrees of heaven, as that is found in early Buddhism. But where are degrees of heaven written about in the Bible?
 

buddhist

Well-Known Member
Hi Buddhist,

If we look at Gen. 6:2, that the sons of God saw that the daughters of men were beautiful; and they took wives for themselves, whomever they chose, some said that the sons of God are referring to angels, but how come a spirit being took wives for themselves? An angel has no body (flesh).
Another thing is the sons of God are the family of Seth who took wives with the family of Cain. I believed this is far more likely that those two families were intermarried if we will based on its context.
Angels apparently took on human form and ate with Abraham (Genesis 18). God apparently took on flesh as Jesus. If Gen 6 refers to the sons of Seth, then why would they produce offspring that were described as different from other men?

Where did you get the notion that the heaven is not perfect? I believed that heaven is a perfect place to live because God resides in heaven. Man's desire to reach God or heaven is the cause of sin, a corrupted mind and heart which started in the Garden of Eden by the serpent.
If heaven is perfect, then its inhabitants would have all their needs fulfilled, correct?
 

buddhist

Well-Known Member
The problem was not with heaven, but the wrong desires some angels allowed to grow within them. Adam and Eve enjoyed perfect life on earth (which I believe is really our everlasting home) but threw it away for the same reason, wrong desires that were nurtured into sinful actions. (James 1:14,15) The same steps lead people today to commit grevious sins, IMO.
So, when men and women reach heaven, they have the potential to fall again, correct?
 

Smart_Guy

...
Premium Member
In the Christian tradition, heaven is described as a state of perfection. However, if that it so, then angels, who supposedly reside in heaven, must have found it imperfect if they had other desires that exceeded that which was provided by heaven.

Doesn't that mean the angels (in the Christian tradition) are the ones not perfect instead of Heaven? I think desires have no limits, so being somewhere believed to be perfect is not what controls desires, but the being having them.

I could be wrong, but this is the only way I can see it at the moment.
 

buddhist

Well-Known Member
Doesn't that mean the angels (in the Christian tradition) are the ones not perfect instead of Heaven? I think desires have no limits, so being somewhere believed to be perfect is not what controls desires, but the being having them.

I could be wrong, but this is the only way I can see it at the moment.
I agree. Which means that men and women who achieve that heaven are also subject to another fall.
 

Smart_Guy

...
Premium Member
I agree. Which means that men and women who achieve that heaven are also subject to another fall.

Good way of thinking, but I'm not sure about other details to answer to that. I'm not Christian.

But what I want to know for now; do angels really live in Heaven (with capital H)?
 
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Etritonakin

Well-Known Member
... then why does the Christian Bible say that the angels, who supposedly reside in heaven, find the need or want to mate with human women (Genesis 6:1-7)?

If the Christian heaven is not perfect, then why should man desire to reach it?

The angels are called the sons of God in Job -but the term does not necessarily apply to only angels.

The "sons of God" in Genesis have only been assumed to be angels.

As for heaven being perfect, notice that the angels/sons of God in Job present themselves before God -and Satan is also among them.

"Heaven" is not a separate reality -as everything is part of the same reality.
Everything was "perfect" (see below) before Satan rebelled -and there was then a war in heaven.
The devil attempted a coup against the throne of God -after deceiving the third of the angels for whom he was responsible. He was an archangel who administered the government of God to a third of the angels -a cherub of similar office as Michael and Gabriel.

The only thing about the situation before he rebelled which might be called imperfect was the potential for disobedience.

Satan was originally a new and inexperienced being. As a creature, he was perfect -but he himself was not yet perfected -because the potential for disobedience existed. He was inexperienced, and also had the power of creativity -which requires independent decision-making. Otherwise, he could not be truly creative or individual.

He created an imperfect situation by disobeying God -and God allowed for it by creating him. If he ever chose to obey God, the situation could become perfect again -but that is between him and God.

Humans are not the same type of creature as angels, but we are also new and inexperienced -and may become perfected in mind -and can then be given different bodies.

That which has happened since Satan rebelled has actually been a process of making us perfect. We are still being created, but we also must self-create to a certain degree -and become better at doing things correctly.


Angels have sometimes appeared as men -and have been called sons of God, so it has been assumed that the nephilim of Genesis were produced by angels mating with human women.

Some have assumed that Adam was the first humanoid on Earth, but that is not actually stated in the bible -which mostly addresses events beginning with Adam.

He was the first man -by biblical definition -to be made in the image and likeness of God -which includes the potential to become one of the immortal children of God -even one day judging the affairs of angels.
His line -beginning with Cain and Abel -could very well be considered the sons of God -and other humanoid women as the daughters of men.

The terminology can be confusing -and we are dealing with imperfect human languages.

Remember that Cain went out from Eden to Nod -and somehow found a wife!

Angels in heaven are described as not marrying or being given in marriage. Basically, they do not mate.

If they were able to become human for a time in order to reproduce, why would their children be different than other human children? By choice, perhaps, but this is not necessarily the case. The sinning angels had already been restrained -allowed only to interact as God allowed -such as in Eden -so it is not likely that they did such things, and I don't see why God would allow the other angels to reproduce with them. What would be the point?

It is far more likely -at least as I see it -that the differentiation is between two sets of humanoids.

It is possible that Adam's line and other humanoids had different characteristics -and the "giants" produced (similar to Goliath, perhaps) could have been due to the mixing of their DNA.
Other humanoids could even have been of greater stature or strength, etc., than Adam's line.

Even that is an assumption based on the word nephilim -which may mean giant literally -but also may not...

nphil {nef-eel'}; from naphal; properly, a feller, i.e. A bully or tyrant -- giant
 
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