If God is outside of time...

[9-10ths_Penguin]

Those of you who claim when it's convenient (e.g. when discussing the First Cause argument) that God is outside of time: do you ever pray for God to change the past?

This question was raised on the most recent Non Prophets podcast. They went a step further and claimed that theists who believe this generally don't pray for God to change the past the way they pray for God to change the future and pointed out that this doesn't seem to make sense.

If God is outside of time, seeing all moments in time together, then there would be no significant distinction between "past" and "future" to God; both would be equally fixed or equally changeable.

So do you believe that God is outside of time? If so, do you ever pray for God to change the past? If not, why not?

 

[Shiranui117]

Those of you who claim when it's convenient (e.g. when discussing the First Cause argument) that God is outside of time: do you ever pray for God to change the past?

This question was raised on the most recent Non Prophets podcast. They went a step further and claimed that theists who believe this generally don't pray for God to change the past the way they pray for God to change the future and pointed out that this doesn't seem to make sense.

If God is outside of time, seeing all moments in time together, then there would be no significant distinction between "past" and "future" to God; both would be equally fixed or equally changeable.

So do you believe that God is outside of time? If so, do you ever pray for God to change the past? If not, why not?

If the past was changed, would we as temporal beings be aware of it? What effects would this have on a universe which functions based on causality?

I have sometimes heard it said that, when we pray to God for the deceased, that prayer sort of goes back in time and blesses them before their death.

 

[9-10ths_Penguin]

If the past was changed, would we as temporal beings be aware of it? What effects would this have on a universe which functions based on causality?

From God's perspective, it would have the exact same implications as changing something that is in the future to us.

I suppose that the manner of the change would determine whether we'd be aware of it.

I have sometimes heard it said that, when we pray to God for the deceased, that prayer sort of goes back in time and blesses them before their death.

Interesting. Said by who?

 

[Kemosloby]

Good question. I don't think it would do much good personally unless you could also go back in time and relive life under the new circumstances.

 

[Vouthon]

Interesting. Said by who?

It is an opinion among some Catholic theologians i.e.

“ Catholic Q & A” by Fr. John Dietzen,

“God is not bound by the limits of time, past or future. The prayers we offer… can be ‘answered’ by God long before they are actually said…The official prayers of the Church at Masses for the dead for example, repeatedly imply (by praying for ‘forgiveness’ and so on) an extension of that prayer back to that person’s time on earth and his or her preparations for death.”​

 

[Grandliseur]

Those of you who claim when it's convenient (e.g. when discussing the First Cause argument) that God is outside of time: do you ever pray for God to change the past?

This question was raised on the most recent Non Prophets podcast. They went a step further and claimed that theists who believe this generally don't pray for God to change the past the way they pray for God to change the future and pointed out that this doesn't seem to make sense.

If God is outside of time, seeing all moments in time together, then there would be no significant distinction between "past" and "future" to God; both would be equally fixed or equally changeable.

So do you believe that God is outside of time? If so, do you ever pray for God to change the past? If not, why not?

While I believe that God exists outside our reality since he created our reality, I view time as only being real in the now, there is no past or future, there is only the now which keeps being transformed by the inertia of the past now having become the future now. Thus our memories are true, but the things remembered, dead friends and family, are only memories and naturally exist no longer. While I remember my supper, it keeps being modified in my stomach in the inertia of chemical biological conditions and does no longer exist in its original state.

While we can in many cases calculate where some things were in the past, heavenly bodies, the earth, a car that had an accident, these are simulations of now things that no longer exist but did exist for a moment, that now which is no longer.

So, I live in an eternal now that keeps transforming and at the moment remembers me. In some not so distant future now, it will no longer remember me for I shall be dead due to the inertia of the conditions that make me age and are killing me slowly.

If God wanted to, he could recreate a past now though it might take a lot to do, but it would not be the past now, it would be a new now. The past does not exist any longer and neither does the future exist, at least not now. And, still, every now is a new now.

 

[Windwalker]

While I believe that God exists outside our reality since he created our reality, I view time as only being real in the now, there is no past or future, there is only the now which keeps being transformed by the inertia of the past now having become the future now. Thus our memories are true, but the things remembered, dead friends and family, are only memories and naturally exist no longer. While I remember my supper, it keeps being modified in my stomach in the inertia of chemical biological conditions and does no longer exist in its original state.

While we can in many cases calculate where some things were in the past, heavenly bodies, the earth, a car that had an accident, these are simulations of now things that no longer exist but did exist for a moment, that now which is no longer.

So, I live in an eternal now that keeps transforming and at the moment remembers me. In some not so distant future now, it will no longer remember me for I shall be dead due to the inertia of the conditions that make me age and are killing me slowly.

If God wanted to he could recreated a past now though it might take a lot to do, but it would not be the past now, it would be a new now. The past does not exist any longer and neither does the future exist, at least not now. And, still, every now is a new now.

I just have to say, that was impressive. I was trying to form my thoughts around something similar, but you seem to have nailed it quite well, probably stating it better than I could have. The only change I would make would be to say that God doesn't exist "outside our reality". I believe God is both fully transcendent while fully immanent in both timelessness and time.

 

[Terese]

I do believe God is beyond and outside time, and I do not pray for him to change the past. Why? I find it selfish to ask God to cater to me for my needs, even though he would. Also changing the past would be greatly counter-intuitive to our development as people, spiritually and mentally.

"We have no right to ask when a sorrow comes, 'why did this happen to me?' unless we ask the same question for every joy that comes our way." - Lord Sri Rama

 

[Vouthon]

From St. Padre Pio:

The doctor knew that some time had passed since he had received the letter and the girl was at death’s door. He was perplexed by Padre Pio’s assurance that all was done, that the request for prayer would work.

Padre Pio continued, "Maybe you don't know that I can pray even now for the happy death of my great-grandfather."

"But he has been dead for many, many years," replied the doctor."

"I know that too,” said Padre Pio. "Let me explain by giving you an example. You and I both die, and through the good fortune and the goodness and mercy of the Lord we are obliged to stay in purgatory for 100 years. During these years nobody prays for us or has a Mass offered for the release of our souls. The 100 years pass and somebody thinks of Padre Pio and the good doctor and has Masses offered. *For the Lord, the past does not exist; the future does not exist. Everything is an eternal present. Those prayers had already been taken into account so that even now I can pray for the happy death of my great-grandfather! * Do you really think the Lord needs our bureaucracy-- that somebody has to ask for a grace on a piece of paper and bring it to Padre Pio?"

The important moral is that we should always pray for the deceased, even those who have died many years ago, because for God there is neither a past nor a future, but all as one eternal present.​

domestic-vocation.blogspot.co.uk/2006/11/praying-for-things-passed.html

 

[9-10ths_Penguin]

I do believe God is beyond and outside time, and I do not pray for him to change the past. Why? I find it selfish to ask God to cater to me for my needs, even though he would. Also changing the past would be greatly counter-intuitive to our development as people, spiritually and mentally.

"We have no right to ask when a sorrow comes, 'why did this happen to me?' unless we ask the same question for every joy that comes our way." - Lord Sri Rama

So you don't ask God to change the present or the future either?

 

[Grandliseur]

I just have to say, that was impressive. I was trying to form my thoughts around something similar, but you seem to have nailed it quite well, probably stating it better than I could have. The only change I would make would be to say that God doesn't exist "outside our reality". I believe God is both fully transcendent while fully immanent in both timelessness and time.

As you mentioned, putting words to some of these things is challenging. When I pray, I know that God immediately knows what I thought prayed. About twice or so, I had an intense feeling of being scanned after the prayer. Once was when I was in physical pain and prayed for help with this problem. I was given the thought to just relax and wait it through, and it worked; the other was when I prayed a significant prayer of recognition where I felt as if God for the first time took notice of me years ago. The feeling of being scanned was significant.

So, while I know God created this reality of ours and therefore is not limited by it, it would seem to me that the way He interacts with us is without the limitations of the physical. It is without any delay, and his answers at times, depending on what is asked, are immediate. Other times, his answers may take years to become evident - because of the nature of our prayer.

 

[Terese]

So you don't ask God to change the present or the future either?

I pray to the Lord to increase my devotion to him. Does this count?

 

[BSM1]

If the past was changed, would we as temporal beings be aware of it? What effects would this have on a universe which functions based on causality?

I have sometimes heard it said that, when we pray to God for the deceased, that prayer sort of goes back in time and blesses them before their death.

Exactly. How would we know?

 

[BSM1]

I pray to the Lord to increase my devotion to him. Does this count?

Wouldn't this be kinda up to you?

 

[Vouthon]

In terms of praying for God to effect physical change to a causal event in our past (as opposed to the retroactive mediation of spiritual blessings), I would say that the fact God has permitted the event to transpire as it did in our past, indicates that He willed not to answer any prayer, or wish, we might have or have had to the contrary regarding it.

We are taught in the Catholic tradition to leave the past to the mercy of God and that what the past has embraced we must entrust to God.

It teaches us humility and about living in the divine will as opposed to our own self-will.

 

[Vouthon]

So you don't ask God to change the present or the future either?

I pray that He abides with me in the present and that He gives me the grace to accept whatever happens in the future, has happened in the past, or is happening to me right now, as being within His divine providence.

Or at least, that's what I strive to pray like but we are all weak according to the flesh.

 

[Grandliseur]

I believe God is both fully transcendent while fully immanent in both timelessness and time.

While scripture tells me that God exists in his original reality, what you said here is true, that is, if I can wrap my head around it.

 

[shunyadragon]

Those of you who claim when it's convenient (e.g. when discussing the First Cause argument) that God is outside of time: do you ever pray for God to change the past?

This question was raised on the most recent Non Prophets podcast. They went a step further and claimed that theists who believe this generally don't pray for God to change the past the way they pray for God to change the future and pointed out that this doesn't seem to make sense.

If God is outside of time, seeing all moments in time together, then there would be no significant distinction between "past" and "future" to God; both would be equally fixed or equally changeable.

So do you believe that God is outside of time? If so, do you ever pray for God to change the past? If not, why not?

You neglect the fact that even though God is outside time, we are a part of the time/space paradigm of time.

 

[Fool]

Those of you who claim when it's convenient (e.g. when discussing the First Cause argument) that God is outside of time: do you ever pray for God to change the past?

This question was raised on the most recent Non Prophets podcast. They went a step further and claimed that theists who believe this generally don't pray for God to change the past the way they pray for God to change the future and pointed out that this doesn't seem to make sense.

If God is outside of time, seeing all moments in time together, then there would be no significant distinction between "past" and "future" to God; both would be equally fixed or equally changeable.

So do you believe that God is outside of time? If so, do you ever pray for God to change the past? If not, why not?

something that could transcend a dimension of time and/or space is not necessarily removed from it in a lower dimension. it just isn't limited to that dimension; especially if it is omnipresent.

 

[Windwalker]

As you mentioned, putting words to some of these things is challenging.

The fact you say that shows to me you are well on your path. The deeper and higher you go into God, the words we use to describe things naturally will begin to fail us. It's a reality of paradoxes, yet True.

When I pray, I know that God immediately knows what I thought prayed. About twice or so, I had an intense feeling of being scanned after the prayer. Once was when I was in physical pain and prayed for help with this problem. I was given the thought to just relax and wait it through, and it worked

Imagine this happening all the time, with most everything we do. That increasingly becomes our reality as we learn to practice "letting go", or surrendering our efforts to fix the world. It is an inner voice that "knows" what is needed, when our normal conscious voice can't see. The practice of letting go, allows that deeper Voice to speak and to become familiar to us. Eventually we integrate that and it and become a normal part of us in how we live Life. This to me is actually what "walking with God" symbolizes. It's not just believing certain things, but living naturally, fluidly, and freely.

the other was when I prayed a significant prayer of recognition where I felt as if God for the first time took notice of me years ago. The feeling of being scanned was significant.

When one encounters God, one also encounters ourselves for the first time. We see ourselves from God's perspective, and that changes everything, from that point forward.

So, while I know God created this reality of ours and therefore is not limited by it, it would seem to me that the way He interacts with us is without the limitations of the physical. It is without any delay, and his answers at times, depending on what is asked, are immediate. Other times, his answers may take years to become evident - because of the nature of our prayer.

I think when we are looking for a particular answer, we will never see what we are actually seeking. It's when we quit looking to figure stuff out, trying to fix something, or for some particular result to materialize, that's when it all becomes immediate. It's not that God withholds Truth, but that we don't have our hands opened to receive it, which is usually what we really needed, not what we thought we did.