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Featured If God is our Father

Discussion in 'Biblical Debates' started by Iymus, Jan 20, 2020.

  1. Iymus

    Iymus Active Member
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    1. If God is our Father in Heaven, would we call God fully Man and God?

    -------------------------------------
    1a.
    Mat 23:9
    And call no man your father upon the earth: for one is your Father, which is in heaven.

    Joh 8:42 Jesus said unto them, If God were your Father, ye would love me: for I proceeded forth and came from God; neither came I of myself, but he sent me.

    -------------------------------------
    1b.
    Num 23:19
    God is not a man, that he should lie; neither the son of man, that he should repent: hath he said, and shall he not do it? or hath he spoken, and shall he not make it good?

    Act 17:30 And the times of this ignorance God winked at; but now commandeth all men every where to repent:
    Act 17:31 Because he hath appointed a day, in the which he will judge the world in righteousness by that man whom he hath ordained; whereof he hath given assurance unto all men, in that he hath raised him from the dead.

    ---------------------------------------
    1c.
    Joh 8:40
    But now ye seek to kill me, a man that hath told you the truth, which I have heard of God: this did not Abraham.

    Mat 16:13 When Jesus came into the coasts of Caesarea Philippi, he asked his disciples, saying, Whom do men say that I the Son of man am?

    ------------------------------------------
    1d.
    Psa 119:104
    Through thy precepts I get understanding: therefore I hate every false way.
     
    #1 Iymus, Jan 20, 2020
    Last edited: Jan 20, 2020
  2. metis

    metis aged ecumenical anthropologist

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    "Father", as used in the above, is "abba" in Hebrew, which is a slang reference to one's biological father. "Father", as in what we may call a priest, is from "presbyteros" in Koine Greek, which means an elderly male.
     
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  3. Iymus

    Iymus Active Member
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    1. so our father in heaven is an elderly male fully Man and fully God?

    also

    2. If God were our Father in Heaven, would we call God fully Man and God?

    direct answers such as yes or no would be greatly appreciated.
    ----------------------

    Heb 12:9 Furthermore we have had fathers of our flesh which corrected us, and we gave them reverence: shall we not much rather be in subjection unto the Father of spirits, and live?
     
  4. leov

    leov Well-Known Member
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    Duality of men - physical and spiritual, "for One is your Leader, that is, Christ." - here is the line of separation between
    Your father of physical body and your father of spiritual body.
     
  5. metis

    metis aged ecumenical anthropologist

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    Let me suggest that you actually go back and read what I posted versus taking this in a direction that I was not going in.
     
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  6. Iymus

    Iymus Active Member
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    1. I suspect a seemingly indirect answer to question is a yes and a direct answer to my question is no.

    Therefore can I interpret your answer as a yes?

    2. I wonder if Christ has a leader according to 1 Corinthians 11:3, however if your answer to the original question is yes then I am not asking.
     
  7. Redemptionsong

    Redemptionsong Well-Known Member

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    You appear to be looking for a new lead on this topic, so let me write out for you the first two articles of religion found in the Book of Common Prayer. Let me say straight away, I am not an Anglican, but I accept the theology of these two statements.

    '1. Of Faith in the Holy Trinity
    There is but one living and true God, everlasting, without body, parts, or passions; of infinite power, wisdom, and goodness; the Maker, and Preserver of all things both visible and invisible. And in unity of this Godhead there be three Persons, of one substance, power, and eternity; the Father, the Son, and the Holy Ghost.

    2. Of the Word or Son of God, which was made very Man.
    The Son, which is the Word of the Father, begotten from everlasting of the Father, the very and eternal God, and of one substance with the Father, took man's nature in the womb of the blessed Virgin, of her substance: so that two whole and perfect Natures, that is to say, the Godhead and Manhood, were joined together in one Person, never to be divided, whereof is one Christ, very God, and very Man; who truly suffered, was crucified, dead and buried, to reconcile his Father to us, and to be a sacrifice, not only for original guilt, but also for all actual sins of men.'
     
  8. Iymus

    Iymus Active Member
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    I was of the understanding that a father is an Originator and in the flesh it is Adam and in the Spirit it is God

    So the concept of father is only biological in nature as in earthly men?
     
  9. leov

    leov Well-Known Member
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    Christ is what lives in humans, spiritual seed of our Father, Christ is concealed by our physical body that was from our earthly father, but if one finds Christ one understands own roots and origin.
     
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  10. Iymus

    Iymus Active Member
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    I don't understand, for the longest I have been hearing Jesus is Fully God and Fully Man but when I ask a simple question consecutively using torah, words of Christ, and book of acts; I am only getting seemingly indirect answers.

    This question should be like 1+1=2 to those who say yes.

    Why all of a sudden nobody is saying Numbers 23:19 is just metaphorical instead of being both metaphorical and literal.

    This is quite strange and peculiar. The armour of God must be strong in the supporting verses I used.
     
    #10 Iymus, Jan 20, 2020
    Last edited: Jan 20, 2020
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  11. metis

    metis aged ecumenical anthropologist

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    The issue that I was directing had nothing to do with the above but was in reference that the English word "father" that's from different words with different meanings in Hebrew and Koine Greek.
     
  12. Terry Sampson

    Terry Sampson ζει

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    Only if we are obtuse or remarkably uninformed or, maybe, a Latter-Day Saint (a.k.a. Mormon).
    Are you a Muslim convert to Christianity??? or a new convert to Christianity?
     
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  13. Thief

    Thief Rogue Theologian

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    and the request was made.....Teach us to pray

    Our Father...…..

    so....as your recite the famous prayer
    you declare yourself a son of God

    our Father
    your Father?
    my Father?
    brothers are we?

    and heaven hears your recital
    so too the devil

    who stands behind you ...? ...as you do so
     
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  14. Gerry

    Gerry Well-Known Member

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    I like the Psalm 119 quote.
    Every false way = man’s many many many different religions?
     
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  15. Gerry

    Gerry Well-Known Member

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    I really enjoy your posts and your thought process.
    Do you believe the following?


    God became human and a human became God, in one person.
     
  16. Iymus

    Iymus Active Member
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    1. Neither. but according to 1 Timothy Chapter 3 i would be closer to a novice. I simply percieve myself to have a strong foundation when it comes to Deu 6:4.

    2. Was never a Muslim, Issac is the only begotten Son of Abraham not Ishmael. It was through Isaac that Jacob received prophet hood and scripture "Oracles of God " and God does not change therefore they are not all consumed under the penalty of breaking the covenant because of Hos 6:6

    Surah 29:26
    And Lot believed him. [Abraham] said, "Indeed, I will emigrate to [the service of] my Lord. Indeed, He is the Exalted in Might, the Wise."

    Surah 29:27 And We gave to Him Isaac and Jacob and placed in his descendants prophethood and scripture. And We gave him his reward in this world, and indeed, he is in the Hereafter among the righteous.

    Heb 11:17 By faith Abraham, when he was tried, offered up Isaac: and he that had received the promises offered up his only begotten son,

    Rom 3:1 What advantage then hath the Jew? or what profit is there of circumcision?
    Rom 3:2 Much every way: chiefly, because that unto them were committed the oracles of God.

    Mal 3:6 For I am the LORD, I change not; therefore ye sons of Jacob are not consumed.

    Hos 6:6 For I desired mercy, and not sacrifice; and the knowledge of God more than burnt offerings.

    Psa 148:14 He also exalteth the horn of his people, the praise of all his saints; even of the children of Israel, a people near unto him. Praise ye the LORD.




     
  17. Terry Sampson

    Terry Sampson ζει

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    I'm pleased to know that. Then consider the following:
    • Deuteronomy Chapter 14:
      • You are children of the LORD your God.
    • 2 Samuel, Chapter 7:
      • 8 "Further, say thus to My servant David: Thus said the LORD of Hosts: I took you from the pasture, from following the flock, to be ruler of My people Israel,
      • 9 and I have been with you wherever you went, ...
      • 12 When your days are done and you lie with your fathers, I will raise up your offspring after you, one of your own issue, and I will establish his kingship.
      • 13 He shall build a house for My name, and I will establish his royal throne forever.
      • 14 I will be a father to him, and he shall be a son to Me.
    • Psalm, Chapter 2:
      • 7 Let me tell of the decree, the LORD said to me, "You are My son, I have fathered you this day.
    • Psalm, Chapter 72:
      • 4 Sing to God, chant hymns to His name; extol Him who rides the clouds; the LORD is His name. Exult in His presence, the father of orphans, the champion of widows, God, in His holy habitation.
    • Wisdom of Solomon
      • Chapter 1:
        • 16 But the ungodly by their words and deeds summoned death; considering him a friend, they pined away and made a covenant with him, because they are fit to belong to his company.
      • Chapter 2:
        • 1 For they reasoned unsoundly, saying to themselves, ...
        • 12 ‘Let us lie in wait for the righteous man, because he is inconvenient to us and opposes our actions; he reproaches us for sins against the law, and accuses us of sins against our training.
        • 13 He professes to have knowledge of God, and calls himself a child of the Lord.
        • 14 He became to us a reproof of our thoughts;
        • 15 the very sight of him is a burden to us, because his manner of life is unlike that of others, and his ways are strange.
        • 16 We are considered by him as something base, and he avoids our ways as unclean; he calls the last end of the righteous happy, and boasts that God is his father.
        • 17 Let us see if his words are true, and let us test what will happen at the end of his life;
        • 18 for if the righteous man is God’s child, He will help him, and will deliver him from the hand of his adversaries
        • 19 Let us test him with insult and torture, so that we may find out how gentle he is, and make trial of his forbearance
        • 20 Let us condemn him to a shameful death, for, according to what he says, he will be protected.’
        • 21 Thus they reasoned, but they were led astray, for their wickedness blinded them,
        • 22 and they did not know the secret purposes of God, nor hoped for the wages of holiness, nor discerned the prize for blameless souls;
        • 23 for God created us for incorruption, and made us in the image of His own eternity,
        • 24 but through the devil’s envy death entered the world, and those who belong to his company experience it.
     
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  18. Iymus

    Iymus Active Member
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    1. We are both familiar with letter of the law and spirit of the law.

    I believe The letter of the law encompasses what is written and the spirit of the law encompasses the intention behind what is written.
    Lord God even mentions speaking to his people in another tongue "Isa 28:11"

    Isa 28:11
    For with stammering lips and another tongue will he speak to this people.


    2. I say all that to ask this; Is Greek and Hebrew proficiency needed to understand the intention of the English translation of "Mat 23:9" by proficient Greek and Hebrew Scholars? Is the intention lost in translation? If not please refer back to my original post. However if you have no direct answer to provide then your contribution to this post so far has still been appreciated. Thank you.

    Mat 23:9 And call no man your father upon the earth: for one is your Father, which is in heaven.
     
  19. Terry Sampson

    Terry Sampson ζει

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    • Exodus 20 12.png
    • Matthew 23 9.png
    It's a conundrum, isn't it? YVWH tells Israel to honor their fathers and mothers that their days on the land that He has given them may be long; and Jesus, a righteous Jew, comes along and says to Jews: You have only one father, and He's in Heaven.

    What to do, what to do?
     
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  20. Iymus

    Iymus Active Member
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    1. Not literally. Since it contradicts " Num 23:19 along with words of Christ in Mat 23:9 , Joh 8:40, Joh 8:42, and a plethora of others

    Num 23:19 God is not a man, that he should lie; neither the son of man, that he should repent: hath he said, and shall he not do it? or hath he spoken, and shall he not make it good?

    Mat 23:9 And call no man your father upon the earth: for one is your Father, which is in heaven.

    Joh 8:40 But now ye seek to kill me, a man that hath told you the truth, which I have heard of God: this did not Abraham.

    Joh 8:42 Jesus said unto them, If God were your Father, ye would love me: for I proceeded forth and came from God; neither came I of myself, but he sent me.

    God is God.
    Son of God is Son of God
    God is not Man.
    Son of God was made flesh "became Son of Man"
    Therefore God is not Son of God because God is not a Man.
    God will judge the world in righteousness thru Son of God that was made flesh.

    Act 17:30 And the times of this ignorance God winked at; but now commandeth all men every where to repent:
    Act 17:31 Because he hath appointed a day, in the which he will judge the world in righteousness by that man whom he hath ordained; whereof he hath given assurance unto all men, in that he hath raised him from the dead.

    2. On the other hand I do believe someone who believes in the Gospel and has a strong foundation in the Old Testament and that Lord God is the only true God himself might be able to pull that off.

    3. Someone that understands Jesus is not Lord God neither our only true God himself might be able to pull off a "God became human and a human became God, in one person." teaching as motivation and encouragement to accept the Gospel of Christ and turn back to God. Like Paul for example; "all things to all man"

    1Co 9:22 To the weak became I as weak, that I might gain the weak: I am made all things to all men, that I might by all means save some.

    4. But I know the world and I know the hearts of men "to include certain men" you give an inch "grace" and we take a mile "turn grace into lasciviousness"

    1Jn 2:15 Love not the world, neither the things that are in the world. If any man love the world, the love of the Father is not in him.

    Jer 17:9 The heart is deceitful above all things, and desperately wicked: who can know it?

    Jud 1:4 For there are certain men crept in unawares, who were before of old ordained to this condemnation, ungodly men, turning the grace of our God into lasciviousness, and denying the only Lord God, and our Lord Jesus Christ.

    Rom 1:22 Professing themselves to be wise, they became fools,
    Rom 1:23 And changed the glory of the uncorruptible God into an image made like to corruptible man, and to birds, and fourfooted beasts, and creeping things.
     
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