If God has freewill, can He be evil?

[an anarchist]

Do you believe God has freewill?
I think some would suppose “no”, as God = morality, so God can only do moral acts.
I think some would suppose “yes”, God could do whatever He wants.
If you suppose “yes”, then is it possible for God to act immorally? Or, is every action done by God automatically moral, no matter what it is, because God is the author of morality?
What do you think? Can God be evil through His own free will?

 

[ChristineM]

Isaiah 45:7.

Though I've heard many an apologetic (excuse) why its perfectly ok

 

[an anarchist]

Isaiah 45:7.

Well I guess that solves the problem of evil for Christians then God is not benevolent

 

[Bathos Logos]

Do you believe God has freewill?
I think some would suppose “no”, as God = morality, so God can only do moral acts.
I think some would suppose “yes”, God could do whatever He wants.
If you suppose “yes”, then is it possible for God to act immorally? Or, is every action done by God automatically moral, no matter what it is, because God is the author of morality?
What do you think? Can God be evil through His own free will?

If God literally defines/decides morality, as many Christians will indicate they believe to be the case by pointing at the rules God sets forth as being the objective set of morals that exist at all, then I feel that what you stated as: "every action done by God automatically moral" must necessarily be the case. Such that, if God decides that you should kill your children to show him how much He means to you, then you must obey because killing your children has just become "moral" - as in, "God knows best" and so "who are you to challenge Him"? Which is another saying pulled out often by Christians looking to defend any of God's actions as they might be judged from a human perspective.

However, I don't buy into any of that. God's actions of forethought (provided He is acting/thinking at all) stand on their own as being either beneficial to human beings or detrimental to human beings. We humans tend to label "evil" those things that are detrimental to human beings (sometimes even without the "forethought" bit - as in the case of natural disasters that people sometimes like to lump into the category "evil"), and there is nothing anyone can demonstrate is intrinsic to God that would make His actions exempt from such labels/judgments. I mean, let's be realistic now, for someone to demonstrate that, they would necessarily have to demonstrate that God exists in the first place. And since that hasn't happened yet...

 

[ChristineM]

Well I guess that solves the problem of evil for Christians then God is not benevolent

I edited my post after you quoted it. I think it's relevant

 

[Sheldon]

Do you believe God has freewill?
I think some would suppose “no”, as God = morality, so God can only do moral acts.
I think some would suppose “yes”, God could do whatever He wants.
If you suppose “yes”, then is it possible for God to act immorally? Or, is every action done by God automatically moral, no matter what it is, because God is the author of morality?
What do you think? Can God be evil through His own free will?

I don't believe in an extant deity, and the hypothetical paradox seems meaningless, since like all other humans, I can only contemplate morality using human reasoning, and to contemplate the hypothetical morality of a hypothetical deity that is hypothetically omniscient and omnipotent, would be an entirely fictional scenario outside of any objective method of reasoning humans have.

 

[Kenny]

Do you believe God has freewill?
I think some would suppose “no”, as God = morality, so God can only do moral acts.
I think some would suppose “yes”, God could do whatever He wants.
If you suppose “yes”, then is it possible for God to act immorally? Or, is every action done by God automatically moral, no matter what it is, because God is the author of morality?
What do you think? Can God be evil through His own free will?

Think of it this way... you and I have the free will to commit murder... I wouldn't, would you?

 

[an anarchist]

Think of it this way... you and I have the free will to commit murder... I wouldn't, would you?

Hmm. You and I both assume it is evil to use our free will to commit murder. I’m not too sure what your trying to get at, if you could elaborate?
Your reply brought Uzzah to mind, the man who touched the ark of the covenant. God struck him dead on the spot. God used His free will. Is that murder? Is that evil? Or is it not?
You say you wouldn’t commit murder, but doesn’t the God you believe in have a record of murders?

 

[Kenny]

Hmm. You and I both assume it is evil to use our free will to commit murder. I’m not too sure what your trying to get at, if you could elaborate?
Your reply brought Uzzah to mind, the man who touched the ark of the covenant. God struck him dead on the spot. God used His free will. Is that murder? Is that evil? Or is it not?
You say you wouldn’t commit murder, but doesn’t the God you believe in have a record of murders?

But that wasn't the question... What I ws trying to explain is that you and I can see how we can choose not to do evil. God won't do evil - there is no evil in Him.

As far as the question, if I said, "don't touch those wires or you will die" and you touch it, is it murder?

 

[Bathos Logos]

Think of it this way... you and I have the free will to commit murder... I wouldn't, would you?

But hasn't God (supposedly) literally committed murder according to your documentation? As in, killed someone with forethought and understanding of what that would accomplish. I am pretty sure that the answer (according to every Bible I have ever read) is "yes".

So think of it this way... you have the free will to commit murder, and God obviously does also... you wouldn't, as you have stated. But what would God say if you asked Him? To the ultimate point that God's morality is then questionable to anyone who would consider murder an immoral act. Therefore there is "evil" to God if you consider "murder" to be an "evil". Unless, of course, you would claim that God committing murder is not evil, simply because God is the one doing it.

 

[Kenny]

But hasn't God (supposedly) literally committed murder according to your documentation? As in, killed someone with forethought and understanding of what that would accomplish. I am pretty sure that the answer (according to every Bible I have ever read) is "yes".

So think of it this way... you have the free will to commit murder, and God obviously does also... you wouldn't, as you have stated. But what would God say if you asked Him?

I wouldn't say He has committed murder. As in any case natural case for men, there are extenuating circumstances that you can be declared innocent whereas in other circumstance it could be murder.

Example

5.4 Defenses Based on Choice – Criminal Law

 

[Bathos Logos]

I wouldn't say He has committed murder. As in any case natural case for men, there are extenuating circumstances that you can be declared innocent whereas in other circumstance it could be murder.

Example

5.4 Defenses Based on Choice – Criminal Law

Ah... I see. So God was defending Himself against a greater evil then when he sent those bears to maul the boys who made fun of some bald guy, right? Seems totally legit.

 

[Kenny]

Ah... I see. So God was defending Himself against a greater evil then when he sent those bears to maul the boys who made fun of some bald guy, right? Seems totally legit.

#5


But, no, He doesn't do evil

 

[Sheldon]

Think of it this way... you and I have the free will to commit murder... I wouldn't, would you?

No, because my moral world involves empathy for other sentient humans, and cares about their suffering, and necessarily would involve avoiding and where possible preventing all unecessary suffering.

Why do you think murder is wrong, is it because as you claimed, you have a moral standard beyond human reasoning? That you can't possibly fathom of course, since all you have is human reasoning.

 

[Sheldon]

#5


But, no, He doesn't do evil

So torturing newborn babies to death, global genocide, indiscriminate mass murder are not evil to you? Really?

 

[Sheldon]

I wouldn't say He has committed murder. As in any case natural case for men, there are extenuating circumstances that you can be declared innocent whereas in other circumstance it could be murder.

Example

5.4 Defenses Based on Choice – Criminal Law

Don't you believe your deity to be omnipotent then, and omniscient, and thus possessing limitless choice? Isn't it supposed to have limitless mercy as well?

Yet the deity you imagine also has to have its actions defended by the laws of evolved apes? Hmm?

 

[Sheldon]

God won't do evil - there is no evil in Him.

1. Sending Bears to Murder Children
2. Genocide
3. Ordering Abraham to Kill his own Child
4. Infanticide
5. Tormenting Job for a bet, even murdering his entire family.

Lets stop there, as there are almost limitless examples of the biblical deity be an evil sadistic maniac.

 

[loverofhumanity]

Do you believe God has freewill?
I think some would suppose “no”, as God = morality, so God can only do moral acts.
I think some would suppose “yes”, God could do whatever He wants.
If you suppose “yes”, then is it possible for God to act immorally? Or, is every action done by God automatically moral, no matter what it is, because God is the author of morality?
What do you think? Can God be evil through His own free will?

Our concept of God given to us by the Prophets is that He is just so God does not commit injustices which would discount things such as immorality and evil. So whatever God does, it is my understanding from the Prophets, is pure justice but never unjust or unfair.

Let’s say for example. Things like natural disasters where innocent people die, how do we know that God might compensate them a hundredfold in the next life? Who’s to know the poor and disadvantaged of this world may become the queens and princes in the next world?

Because the Prophets offered up their lives to guide us, I would trust Them above any earthly speculations or assumptions regarding the nature of God.

 

[an anarchist]

As far as the question, if I said, "don't touch those wires or you will die" and you touch it, is it murder?

Well let’s dive into it.
If God made the wires lethal, though He didn’t have to, can it be murder?
Forget about Uzzah for a second, let’s focus on the tree of the knowledge of good and evil. A question often asked by kids was “why did God make that tree in the first place?” Adults at my church would say “So we would have the free will to sin!” The kids would be befuddled and scratch their heads.
Maybe you can provide a better answer than I was able to to those kids. Why did God have the tree of knowledge of good and evil accessible to Adam and Eve in the first place? Being omniscient, God must’ve know Adam and Eve would had sinned by eating the fruit. Unless He isn’t omniscient.
Was it not wrong of God to put us in this predicament? The predicament of being born into sin. So much suffering in this world.
God set the rules, right? Or did He not, and is not omnipotent?
So, couldn’t He had set us up in an environment where we would not have sinned and brought about this suffering?
Back to Uzzah
“Don’t touch the wires or else you’ll die”
It seemed when Uzzah touched the ark, it was a reflexive action, as the oxen tripped. Uzzah was trying to stop the ark from falling reflexively it seems. God, being omnipotent, could had made sure the cows didn’t trip. Also, God could had very well been merciful on Uzzah.
I’m just playing devils advocate here Ken, I do that in everything I do. Perhaps Uzzah died but went straightaway to heaven ya know? Suffering in this life is so fleeting while the afterlife is eternal.
I for one, as a when I was a waning Christian recently, did not believe God to be omnipotent. There was a reason for our suffering and the way things happened. Idk at the end of the day.

 

[Kenny]

Well let’s dive into it.
If God made the wires lethal, though He didn’t have to, can it be murder?

Did we have to make electric wires? Or is the benefit of electricity more than what happens if you touch it? If you have the rules of "TURN OFF THE ELECTRICITY" and you don't, do you blame the electric company? Obviously not.

There were rules on how to transport the presence of God.

Forget about Uzzah for a second, let’s focus on the tree of the knowledge of good and evil. A question often asked by kids was “why did God make that tree in the first place?” Adults at my church would say “So we would have the free will to sin!” The kids would be befuddled and scratch their heads.
Maybe you can provide a better answer than I was able to to those kids. Why did God have the tree of knowledge of good and evil accessible to Adam and Eve in the first place? Being omniscient, God must’ve know Adam and Eve would had sinned by eating the fruit. Unless He isn’t omniscient.
Was it not wrong of God to put us in this predicament? The predicament of being born into sin. So much suffering in this world.
God set the rules, right? Or did He not, and is not omnipotent?

That depends on your point of view. Love requires choice, does it not? If you have no choice BUT to love, is it really love? Or do you want robots. Not free will to sin, but free will to love. So sorry that your adults expressed it that way.

Adam knew not to eat it. He had the WHOLE WIDE WORLD. Do you become so selfish as to not let the one you love have one fruit tree? Is that love?

So, couldn’t He had set us up in an environment where we would not have sinned and brought about this suffering?
Back to Uzzah
“Don’t touch the wires or else you’ll die”
It seemed when Uzzah touched the ark, it was a reflexive action, as the oxen tripped. Uzzah was trying to stop the ark from falling reflexively it seems. God, being omnipotent, could had made sure the cows didn’t trip. Also, God could had very well been merciful on Uzzah.
I’m just playing devils advocate here Ken, I do that in everything I do. Perhaps Uzzah died but went straightaway to heaven ya know? Suffering in this life is so fleeting while the afterlife is eternal.
I for one, as a when I was a waning Christian recently, did not believe God to be omnipotent. There was a reason for our suffering and the way things happened. Idk at the end of the day.

No problem... but let's look at the directions:

'10 “They shall make an ark of acacia wood. Two cubits and a half shall be its length, a cubit and a half its breadth, and a cubit and a half its height. 11 You shall overlay it with pure gold, inside and outside shall you overlay it, and you shall make on it a molding of gold around it. 12 You shall cast four rings of gold for it and put them on its four feet, two rings on the one side of it, and two rings on the other side of it. 13 You shall make poles of acacia wood and overlay them with gold. 14 And you shall put the poles into the rings on the sides of the ark to carry the ark by them. 15 The poles shall remain in the rings of the ark; they shall not be taken from it. 16 And you shall put into the ark the testimony that I shall give you.'

People are suppose to carry it.

What did they do?

"And they carried the ark of God on a new cart and brought it out of the house of Abinadab," carried by oxen I suppose in a cart and not by people.

Everybody was sorry they used the cart but they still did it wrong. (Not that Uzzah still lives in God's presence, not a bad place to be)

So don't blame the electric company?