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If God created everything who created God?

Discussion in 'Religious Debates' started by SaintMalachi, Mar 5, 2011.

  1. Levite

    Levite Higher and Higher

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    The dominant belief in Judaism today is that God is eternal. In other words, nobody and nothing created God, because God always was and always will be, transcending the lifespan of this or any other universe.

    Personally, that is also what I believe.
     
  2. Mestemia

    Mestemia Advocatus Diaboli
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    God exists
    how do you know?
    The very definition of god says god exists...

    God is un-caused
    How do you know?
    The very definition of god says god is un-caused...

    God is non-contingent
    How do you know?
    The very defnition of god says god is non-contingent...

    God is {insert something here}
    How do you know?
    Because the very definition of god says god is {insert something here}

    Like I said, you hide behind your definition of god.
     
  3. Orias

    Orias Left Hand Path

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    Man.


    Why must the bible be involved?
     
  4. horizon_mj1

    horizon_mj1 Well-Known Member

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    This is not relevant to my meaning of "forever under creations kingdoms". Rather if things existing are either "created" or if they have "evolved" in to what they are, it is undeniable that everything is forever under creations kingdoms, or it would not exist.
     
  5. Tathagata

    Tathagata Freethinker

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    I never said that. In fact, why would I say that?!! I'm an ATHEIST. Do you NOT see my profile details that show up on every post next to my avatar??

    That's the same thing. Non-contingent things cannot be caused by the very nature of being non-contingent.

    It's NOT my definition of God. It's called "Perfect Being Theology." This is the definition of God as recognized in the Philosophy of Religion.

    Perfect Being Theology « SUMMA PHILOSOPHIAE

    Seriously. When you become more well learned in philosophy, then come back to me and we can talk. Until then, quit telling me I'm committing fallacies when you don't understand what is even being said.

    .
     
  6. Mestemia

    Mestemia Advocatus Diaboli
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    Oh please.
    You commit fallacies every time you refer to the definition of god.
     
  7. proffesb

    proffesb Member

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    IMO god is a concept created by man. It is the same as asking someone who believes in the Big Bang theory where the source of the big bang came from. There is not a known answer to these questions.
     
  8. Tathagata

    Tathagata Freethinker

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    Ipse-dixit argumentum ad nauseam.


    .
     
  9. Mestemia

    Mestemia Advocatus Diaboli
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    Roflmao


    Seriously, when you become more well learned in the art of not using fallacies come back and maybe we can talk.
     
  10. Gharib

    Gharib I want Khilafah back

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    Abu Hurairah, may Allah be pleased with him, reported:
    Allah's Messenger (peace be upon him) said: People will continue to be in the habit of questioning even to the extent of saying: Well, it is Allah Who created all creatures, then who created Allah? Whoever finds such thought should say: I truly believe in Allah.

    Anas bin Malik, may Allah be pleased with him, reported:
    Allah's Messenger (may peace be upon him) said: The Great and Glorious Allah said: Verily your people would constantly question about this and that till they would say: Well, it is Allah Who created the creation, but who created Allah?

    in oreder for one to have a creator one must be a creation, we are a creation, with beginning and end and Allah is our creator. Allah has no beginning and no end therefore he is not a creation and as such has no creator.

    i hope that answers your question and I truly believe in Allah.
     
  11. PolyHedral

    PolyHedral Superabacus Mystic

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    Perfect being theology falls apart because "perfect" in these circumstances is not well-defined.
     
  12. Willamena

    Willamena Just me
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    Out of curiosity, what about it do you feel is not well defined?

    It says that perfect being is "being that possesses the greatest array of compossible great-making properties," and then goes on to define "great-making" properties in terms of "for some subject S it is better that S has any or all of these, than that S does not."
     
  13. Revoltingest

    Revoltingest Greased up & ready for action!
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    I've explained this before, but here it goes again. God is the god of our time & space, plus some extra realm.
    His entire universe, is an infinitesimal part of a larger multiverse, one containing the Uber-God which created God.
    And yes, dear students, it turtles all the way up.
     
    #53 Revoltingest, Mar 7, 2011
    Last edited: Mar 7, 2011
  14. PolyHedral

    PolyHedral Superabacus Mystic

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    Perfect is normally defined in terms of an object's purpose, where a perfect thing is a thing which achieves its purpose better than all other possible alternatives. Entities in general don't really have a purpose (indeed, some versions of God seem to preclude having a purpose) so "perfect being" isn't really meaningful, since we don't know what it's perfect at doing.
     
  15. opuntia

    opuntia Religion is Law

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    Whether or not we believe in God, we may think He is alone in the universe. That may be in error. Who says there are no other Gods? The God we deal with is our personal God and so we think there is no other God out there. It may surprise you that I think there is more than one God out there. Since we have been created by this one particular God, we may say that He is our Father. How many fathers are there in the world? How many Fathers are there in the universe? You have to be open to other thoughts that may comport or fit with our accepted truth or suppositions.

    We see religions and philosophies preached and taught with relative ease in that we may expect certain ideological expositions to be the same. I mean there are no deviations from the norm, no other forms of theory are being taught, what we are taught is what they say is the reality. Unless we are willing to allow that there may be more to the picture, we will never learn beyond the boundaries of their expectations. Science teaches certain things, religion teaches certain things, and both have not deviated from their teachings in centuries. While this may be good for keeping us stable, it does not allow us to be innovative in our thinking.

    And one subject that has not changed is that we have only one (1) God. I say there is more than one God in the vast expanse of the universe. That is like saying there is only one earth. With so many stars and spheres out there, in that we could not even number them if we tried, how could there not be another earth? Just what do we know what is truly out there?

    We read the Bible and think that the book covers all we need to know? It does not. The book only covers a certain amount of truth. If we ever had a book that covered all truth, we would need a huge library just to contain all there is to know. So don't confine your mind to narrow precepts or beliefs.

    Now to the one God question. Who created God? Another God. It would seem that only a God would have all the necessary information and the necessary power to create a God. We certainly could not create one. So then, where would a God find a candidate for Godhood? This may surprise you: From us. See what Jesus said: "Be ye therefore perfect [Greek, complete, finished, fully developed], even as your Father which is in heaven is perfect." (Matthew 5:48; KJV). He knew that there was a God above who created us as human beings. But in the next life, He may create from us Gods. Sounds like too much? Then why do we exist, to be angels? Or is there more? If you believe that God has the necessary power and authority to create (whatever He wants to create), then you can accept that He can take some us to Godhood. Not all accept this idea and what He offers are voluntarily entered into, you don't have accept all He has to offer, you do have the power to choose.

    I hope this was not too much at one sitting.
     
  16. Orias

    Orias Left Hand Path

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    You know that's a really good point, which is why I have a hard time consuming and accepting the Christian (among other supernatural blasphemies) ideas of the "perfect" being.

    I would go as far to say that "imperfection" is as "perfect" as it can get.
     
  17. Mestemia

    Mestemia Advocatus Diaboli
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    Why does everyone keep forgetting the elephants?
     
  18. gnomon

    gnomon Well-Known Member

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    Who created the gods?

    I think there was a mama Titan and a Papa Titan. But who begat them is somewhat confusing. The story involves the cutting of genitalia and sperm spilling forth. Not considered appropriate under current FCC guidelines.
     
  19. Orias

    Orias Left Hand Path

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    Lol. Don't forget the jealous titan that attempted to eat the new young promising Gods and ended up exposing his innards in the process.
     
  20. gnomon

    gnomon Well-Known Member

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    That was Cronus wasn't it?

    I maintain the Greeks had the wildest mythology regarding modern sentimentalities. Slicing genitalia. Cannibalism. Beauties formed of sperm floating in the sea. Makes the endless turtles boring by comparison.
     
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