Trailblazer
Veteran Member
Me too.Thats more than enough moldy nonsense for me.
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Me too.Thats more than enough moldy nonsense for me.
I don't know what commentators you're looking at, and what exactly they're saying is legitimate (that YHWH might have destroyed His people?), but Deu 9 is recounting the golden calf scenario, starting with verses 4 and 5:All I can say is that the story is in Deuteronomy chapter 9 in my translated text. I have also seen commentary by scholars about it, so they admit its legitimate. Surely it can't be denied that (in the story) this threat was put forward, that the entire thing could have been restarted with Moses, alone? I can't say for sure if Moses could have been replaced, but it seems to be the general gist that he also could have been replaced. I'm not going to say I've heard anyone comment on that point, except later on Jesus; but I have a feeling Jesus isn't the first to hold this point of view. If everybody except Moses can be replaced, then probably Moses can, too; and probably anybody can.
Add Jesus to that and in Christianity its pretty official that anybody or any group of anybody's has got no permanent status and can be replaced. Jesus claims rocks can be turned into sons for Abraham. Maybe I'm taking his comment in the wrong way? Maybe not.
So sorry. I should have included the verse. 9:14 says (to Moses) "Let me alone, so that I may destroy them and blot out their name from under heaven. And I will make you into a nation stronger and more numerous than they." Its much discussed and often related to Jesus quoted claim in the Christian gospel "...out of these stones God can raise up children for Abraham..." (from Luke 3:8) The catholic writers appear to take the view that physical lineage is not of importance as does Jesus as far as can be seen. It doesn't imply any change in Judaism. Judaism allows adoption and conversation etc. Its hardly a problem as far as I can tell. They can do without a temple, so clearly they can also do without Levites. I don't see a problem if their scripture says they are replaceable with other individuals. I'm not suggesting that Christianity replaces Judaism.I don't know what commentators you're looking at, and what exactly they're saying is legitimate (that YHWH might have destroyed His people?), but Deu 9 is recounting the golden calf scenario, starting with verses 4 and 5:
4 “Do not think in your heart, after the Lord your God has cast them out before you, saying, ‘Because of my righteousness the Lord has brought me in to possess this land’; but it is because of the wickedness of these nations that the Lord is driving them out from before you. 5 It is not because of your righteousness or the uprightness of your heart that you go in to possess their land, but because of the wickedness of these nations that the Lord your God drives them out from before you, and that He may fulfill the word which the Lord swore to your fathers, to Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob.
So, this is laying out that YHWH is giving them the land, not because they deserved it, but because of His covenant with Abraham.
Then it goes on to tell that they made YHWH angry enough to have destroyed them... it doesn't say he would have. We can know that He wouldn't have done that because of His covenant with Abraham (Gen 15). I would suggest you study ancient covenants, particularly blood covenants.
Moses then "stood in the gap," so to speak, entreating YHWH to not destroy His people, calling on him to remember His covenant. Deu 9:26-29:
26 Therefore I prayed to the Lord, and said: ‘O Lord God, do not destroy Your people and Your inheritance whom You have redeemed through Your greatness, whom You have brought out of Egypt with a mighty hand. 27 Remember Your servants, Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob; do not look on the stubbornness of this people, or on their wickedness or their sin, 28 lest the land from which You brought us should say, “Because the Lord was not able to bring them to the land which He promised them, and because He hated them, He has brought them out to kill them in the wilderness.” 29 Yet they are Your people and Your inheritance, whom You brought out by Your mighty power and by Your outstretched arm.’
I keep mentioning covenant, but it really is vital to understand. YHWH will stand by his word to Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob, therefore no matter how much His people may stray, He will never utterly destroy them.
35 Thus says the Lord,
Who gives the sun for a light by day,
The ordinances of the moon and the stars for a light by night,
Who disturbs the sea,
And its waves roar
(The Lord of hosts is His name):
36 “If those ordinances depart
From before Me, says the Lord,
Then the seed of Israel shall also cease
From being a nation before Me forever.”
Jeremiah 31:35-36
As for speaking of raising up children to Abraham from the stones (John the baptist said that), in my reading of that it has nothing to do with replacing Israel (he wasn't speaking to "Christians"). He was telling them not to place their confidence in being physical descendants of Abraham. That to be a true son of Abraham they needed do as he did and walk in righteousness.
Christianity accepts that Hebrew Bible is divinely inspired. It further accepts that the Hebrew religion as laid out in that Hebrew Bible was revealed by God. That recognition however does not extend to the post-incarnation religion laid out in the Talmud and later texts. Which if Christianity is true must necessarily be false. As obviously both cannot be simultaneously true.If Christianity is the truth then Judaism is also the truth, Why? Because Judaism is the original, first Abrahamic religion. Without Judaism, Christianity would never have existed.
What is the post-incarnation religion laid out in the Talmud and later texts? I am not familiar with the Hebrew Bible.Christianity accepts that Hebrew Bible is divinely inspired. It further accepts that the Hebrew religion as laid out in that Hebrew Bible was revealed by God. That recognition however does not extend to the post-incarnation religion laid out in the Talmud and later texts. Which if Christianity is true must necessarily be false. As obviously both cannot be simultaneously true.
The New Testament says many things. Who do you think Jesus was according to the New Testament?Either Jesus was who the New Testament says he was and Judaism is wrong in its denial of him. Or, he was a false messiah and Christianity is but a heresy. Albeit a very successful one.
If Christianity is the truth then Judaism is also the truth, Why? Because Judaism is the original, first Abrahamic religion. Without Judaism, Christianity would never have existed.
This also applies to Islam and the Baha'i. Without Judaism, the two religions would not have existed. Therefore, Judaism is definitely the truth
What do you think about that?
Before the 3rd century, virtually the entire world was pagan. Paganism was quite successful.Either Jesus was who the New Testament says he was and Judaism is wrong in its denial of him. Or, he was a false messiah and Christianity is but a heresy. Albeit a very successful one.
Christianity emerged as a Jewish sect near the tail end of the second temple period. The Judaism of this period was a temple based cult with a wide variety of sects with the Pharisees being but one. What we call Judaism today derives from the Pharisee sect. All other sects vanished after the destruction of the temple. (Christianity being the other survivor). The point is that Christianity is not an off-shoot of Rabbinic Judaism, but rather began as a roughly contemporaneous rival sect that over time became its own religion.What is the post-incarnation religion laid out in the Talmud and later texts? I am not familiar with the Hebrew Bible.
Of course, both Judaism and Christianity may be false, but for the purpose of this thread I assume either the validity of Judaism or Christianity.Before the 3rd century, virtually the entire world was pagan. Paganism was quite successful.
If Christianity is wrong, paganism continued to be very successful while taking on a more unified tone in some parts of the world.
I wasn't addressing that point.Of course, both Judaism and Christianity may be false, but for the purpose of this thread I assume either the validity of Judaism or Christianity.
But they were afraid of the backlash from the rest of Israel that did follow Jesus.
Your story sounds good if you were a lawyer trying to argue a case to get the Jews off. But they had their chance to redeem the 70 weeks. If they would have accepted their Messiah, the NT may not have ever been written. How He would have loved to gather them as a hen gathers it's chicks. But they missed the time of their Visitation.
It sounded to me like "Rome" was trying to let Him go.
It sounded to me like Pontius Pilate, a governor of the Roman Empire, was the one who pronounced Him the "King of the Jews."
“Here is your king,” Pilate said to the Jews.
Over two Chapters of John 18 and 19, Pilate was trying to let Him go.
“I find no basis for a charge against him.
But they weren't going to give up.
"Once more Pilate came out and said to the Jews gathered there, “Look, I am bringing him out to you to let you know that I find no basis for a charge against him.”And again:
"As soon as the chief priests and their officials saw him, they shouted, “Crucify! Crucify!”
"But Pilate answered, “You take him and crucify him. As for me, I find no basis for a charge against him.”
And again:
"The Jewish leaders insisted, “We have a law, and according to that law he must die, because he claimed to be the Son of God.”
"When Pilate heard this, he was even more afraid, and he went back inside the palace. “Where do you come from?”
Even after all that, Pilate still tries to make an out for Him:
"From then on, Pilate tried to set Jesus free, but the Jewish leaders kept shouting, “If you let this man go, you are no friend of Caesar.
“Here is your king,” Pilate said to the Jews.
Again:
"But they shouted, “Take him away! Take him away! Crucify him!”
And again:
“Shall I crucify your king?” Pilate asked.
And again:
“We have no king but Caesar,” the chief priests answered.
"Finally Pilate handed him over to them to be crucified.
Rome was the mechanism, but the Old Time Jews were the hand inside the glove.
1. Jesus died for the sins of mankind.
2. Jews deny the truth of the importance of Jesus death.
Based on that alone, that means Christianity should have never gotten off the ground, because the first Christians were all Jews and "God wants Jews to follow the Tanakh/old testament and Talmud. Because that is God's covenant with the Jews." Which means they should never have stopped following Judaism.Both can true at the same time. How? I will explain it now to you.
I believe both judaism and christianity is true. I believe God have different convenants with different people.
God wants Jews to follow the Tanakh/old testament and Talmud. Because that is God's covenant with the Jews.
At the same time God has made a new covenant with christians. God wants christians to follow the new testament.
Catholic believe the same.
"While affirming salvation through an explicit or even implicit faith in Christ," the Vatican document reads, "the Church does not question the continued love of God for the chosen people of Israel."
Jesus summed up their aberrant behavior in Matthew 23:37-39......
"Jerusalem, Jerusalem, the killer of the prophets and stoner of those sent to her—how often I wanted to gather your children together the way a hen gathers her chicks under her wings! But you did not want it. 38 Look! Your house is abandoned to you. 39 For I say to you, you will by no means see me from now until you say, ‘Blessed is the one who comes in Jehovah’s name!’”
The Jews were "abandoned" as serial covenant breakers who murdered their prophets and stubbornly refused to change their ways....but those who followed the teachings of Jesus Christ were blessed with God's spirit and backing.
Two questions:King Herod was an Edomite (Black from Africa--descended from Cush) on his father's side, and therefore raised as a Jew. However, Herod was working for the Romans. Wikipedia says that Herod was Arab on both sides of his family. The bible describes Edomites as descendants of Esau (and therefore Jewish), but Edomite's Jewish religion was a result of comingling with Jews around them.
All humans are human.If Christianity is the truth then Judaism is also the truth, Why? Because Judaism is the original, first Abrahamic religion. Without Judaism, Christianity would never have existed.
This also applies to Islam and the Baha'i. Without Judaism, the two religions would not have existed. Therefore, Judaism is definitely the truth
What do you think about that?
If Christianity is the truth then Judaism is also the truth, Why? Because Judaism is the original, first Abrahamic religion. Without Judaism, Christianity would never have existed.
This also applies to Islam and the Baha'i. Without Judaism, the two religions would not have existed. Therefore, Judaism is definitely the truth
What do you think about that?
But they were afraid of the backlash from the rest of Israel that did follow Jesus.
Your story sounds good if you were a lawyer trying to argue a case to get the Jews off. But they had their chance to redeem the 70 weeks. If they would have accepted their Messiah, the NT may not have ever been written. How He would have loved to gather them as a hen gathers it's chicks. But they missed the time of their Visitation.
It sounded to me like "Rome" was trying to let Him go.
It sounded to me like Pontius Pilate, a governor of the Roman Empire, was the one who pronounced Him the "King of the Jews."
“Here is your king,” Pilate said to the Jews.
Over two Chapters of John 18 and 19, Pilate was trying to let Him go.
“I find no basis for a charge against him.
But they weren't going to give up.
"Once more Pilate came out and said to the Jews gathered there, “Look, I am bringing him out to you to let you know that I find no basis for a charge against him.”And again:
"As soon as the chief priests and their officials saw him, they shouted, “Crucify! Crucify!”
"But Pilate answered, “You take him and crucify him. As for me, I find no basis for a charge against him.”
And again:
"The Jewish leaders insisted, “We have a law, and according to that law he must die, because he claimed to be the Son of God.”
"When Pilate heard this, he was even more afraid, and he went back inside the palace. “Where do you come from?”
Even after all that, Pilate still tries to make an out for Him:
"From then on, Pilate tried to set Jesus free, but the Jewish leaders kept shouting, “If you let this man go, you are no friend of Caesar.
“Here is your king,” Pilate said to the Jews.
Again:
"But they shouted, “Take him away! Take him away! Crucify him!”
And again:
“Shall I crucify your king?” Pilate asked.
And again:
“We have no king but Caesar,” the chief priests answered.
"Finally Pilate handed him over to them to be crucified.
Rome was the mechanism, but the Old Time Jews were the hand inside the glove.
And you know this how?Rome was the mechanism, but the Old Time Jews were the hand inside the glove.
And you know this how?
Judaism is as true a Religion as the other ReligionsThis also applies to Islam and the Baha'i. Without Judaism, the two religions would not have existed. Therefore, Judaism is definitely the truth
What do you think about that?