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Featured If Christianity is the truth then Judaism is also the truth

Discussion in 'General Religious Debates' started by Meandflower, Jan 23, 2021.

  1. Conscious thoughts

    Conscious thoughts Veteran Member

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    Why can humans with different beliefs or different way to look at God be friends?
    Personally i like both Jews, Christians and Muslims from abrahamic religions
     
  2. Pilgrim Soldier

    Pilgrim Soldier Active Member

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    God forbids His Children to have fellowship with Infidels
     
  3. Conscious thoughts

    Conscious thoughts Veteran Member

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    But discussion with "infidels" or people from other religions is ok?
    Are we not all human beings who trying to understand God and his teachings?
    I find comfort in knowing that people found the answer they seek, no matter what God or Buddha they following.
    It is not my mission to convert others, or telling them they are wrong. So even i ask you questions, does not mean i see you as a fool for believing different than i do.
     
  4. Pilgrim Soldier

    Pilgrim Soldier Active Member

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    God never forebode discussion, He forbids fellowship which is an entirely different thing. It means things like joining the unbelievers in sinful activity such as watching Hollywood movies or going to a gay parade or supporting the LGBT movement etc.
    God said, nobody is seeking the truth so whatever comfort you fund in other gods is not a true comfort.
    God said, nobody can convert anybody to anything, He said He is the only One who can do that.
    Our questions and judgements amount to completely insignificant exercises, since they can't change a single thing or truth in the universe.
    God's will shall be done, exactly as He preordained to do and nothing can change what He has decreed
     
  5. Conscious thoughts

    Conscious thoughts Veteran Member

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    I agree that the abrahamic God does speak about certain aspects of what you say here. But it is a huge difference in being Gay and doing a sexual activity that according to your belief is a sin. A Gay person may go to heaven wheras a non gay Christian may not go to heaven.

    Seeking the truth, is seeking understanding of how to become like God and to never do a sinful action, speech or thought again. Very few humans can do it :)
     
  6. Pilgrim Soldier

    Pilgrim Soldier Active Member

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    Please allow me to paraphrase your last sentence, "No humans can do it". God said "all have sinned" He didn't make any exceptions.
    We are all murderers, adulterers, homosexuals, liars, fornicators etc. by nature. We can't change our nature, since we don't have the means to reprogram ourselves. Only God can give us a new nature, then we can actually do good. But until then, our best works are as filthy rags in His sight.
     
  7. Conscious thoughts

    Conscious thoughts Veteran Member

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    On this i have come to understand it differently than you :)
     
  8. Pilgrim Soldier

    Pilgrim Soldier Active Member

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    Our understanding, doesn't make anything true or false. It's just a choice to believe what someone has said about something, but the truth remains the same whether we believe it or not
     
  9. Conscious thoughts

    Conscious thoughts Veteran Member

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    I believe in Islam and sufi teaching of my teacher:) if you believe differently its ok :)
     
  10. Pilgrim Soldier

    Pilgrim Soldier Active Member

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    Of course you believe in Islam, just as the Hindu and Buddhist and every other one of the 3,200 registered religions around the world believe in their teachers.

    I'm not questioning your loyalty to your teachers, I was merely pointing out the fact that there is only one truth but 3,200 opposing religions claim it for themselves.
    We can't have 3,200 truths so there's a battle for the truth, everybody claims to own it but the truth remains the same no matter how may try to make it into something it's not.
     
  11. Dave Watchman

    Dave Watchman Active Member

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    I still think he was the man that did it.

    Within days of his death, the end had come.



    I agree that: "No man can come to me unless the Father, who sent me, draws him", and so I am very much a five pointer.

    But I still think that what John did was a technical success and fulfillment of Matt 24:14.

    "And this gospel of the kingdom will be proclaimed throughout the whole world as a testimony to all nations, and then the end will come.​

    There are other indigenous peoples in South America without sustained contact with neighbors, or the world community. But North Sentinel was the biggie, the most remote and most difficult to be reached. Being that it was an island almost qualified it to be it's own nation, as a testimony to all nations. Many nations and peoples and tongues.

    True, but remember also what Jesus said in these efforts. Not all of them will end in success:

    "And whatever town or village you enter, find out who is worthy in it and stay there until you depart. As you enter the house, greet it. And if the house is worthy, let your peace come upon it, but if it is not worthy, let your peace return to you. And if anyone will not receive you or listen to your words, shake off the dust from your feet when you leave that house or town. Truly, I say to you, it will be more bearable on the day of judgment for the land of Sodom and Gomorrah than for that town.​

    I think we are right in it.

    The Sentinelese were there for Scripture to be fulfilled.

    My obsession is time sensitive.

    This is the zone where I can get into trouble.

    I think we're right in the time, "Satan's last stronghold", is a fine way to describe it.

    By popularizing abortion, the Dragon can cause a delay. I suspect we are living in this delay now.

    From the Westminster Confession of Faith
    Chapter 10.3:

    iii. Elect infants, dying in infancy, are regenerated, and saved by Christ through the Spirit, who worketh when, and where, and how He pleaseth: so also, are all other elect persons who are incapable of being outwardly called by the ministry of the Word.

    God has wrapped some things in a cloud of mystery. We dare not venture into the darkness of such mysteries with the feeble light of our speculations, but must rest content in the beams of light shining from the Word. One such mystery is God's purpose in the death of those mentally incapable of understanding the gospel, whether infants or adults.

    We cannot say that such persons are sinless. David confessed that he was in sin from the moment of his conception in his mother's womb (Ps. 51:5). Sinners go astray from their infancy, showing their inward corruption even in early childhood by speaking lies (Ps. 58:3). Nor can we say that they are free from guilt, for their death shows that they are bound up in Adam's fall and condemnation, even before they commit any willful act of transgression against the law of God (Rom. 5:14, 18). Children and mentally impaired adults, "descending from [Adam and Eve] by ordinary generation" (WCF 4:3), are included in the "all" who sinned in Adam and fell with him in his transgression.

    How can they be saved? God's ordinary way of saving sinners is to call them effectually through the gospel (2 Thess. 2:14). In fact, though there are many religions in the world, there is no other name but Jesus by which we must be saved (Acts 4:12). Those who follow other religions have no relationship with the true God and have no hope (Eph. 2:12).

    But the Bible sheds a beam of light when it reveals that God can save infants. John the Baptist was leaping for joy in Elizabeth's womb when he heard the voice of Mary, the mother of our Lord (Luke 1:41-44). The unborn child was already filled with the Holy Spirit (Luke 1:15). There is much we don't understand, but clearly God had saved the infant in the womb and moved him to rejoice in Christ. Therefore, we know that God is able to save sinners with underdeveloped or impaired mental capacities.

    Chapter 10.3

    And so I suspect we are in the night when no man can work.

    The judgement of the living is complete.

    We are just waiting for more of our brothers and our fellow servants to enter into the world:

    [​IMG]

    Peaceful Sabbath.
     
  12. Dave Watchman

    Dave Watchman Active Member

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    I know.

    They can sound OK up to a certain point, but then fall apart.

    I like to be as nice as I can on this forum. The rabid Atheists are prowling around here like roaring lions seeking whom they may devour. I don't like for them to see us fight.

    Like this sounds OK up until the last sentence:

    Do Jehovah’s Witnesses Believe in Jesus?

    Yes. We believe in Jesus, who said: “I am the way and the truth and the life. No one comes to the Father except through me.” (John 14:6) We have faith that Jesus came to earth from heaven and gave his perfect human life as a ransom sacrifice. (Matthew 20:28) His death and resurrection make it possible for those exercising faith in him to gain everlasting life. (John 3:16) We also believe that Jesus is now ruling as King of God’s heavenly Kingdom, which will soon bring peace to the entire earth. (Revelation 11:15) However, we take Jesus at his word when he said: “The Father is greater than I am.” (John 14:28) So we do not worship Jesus, as we do not believe that he is Almighty God.
    https://www.jw.org/en/jehovahs-witnesses/faq/believe-in-jesus/

    I think it can be tricky to understand. When Jesus said in John: “The Father is greater than I am”, was He in some way being humble to the Father. And if there were not a Father to begin with, could there even be an only begotten Son? No. So the Father will always be unique as never having a birthday.

    My read shows that Jesus is the ONLY begotten Son of God. This somehow makes Him unlike any other created being. Jesus was cut from the fabric of God the Father. A chip off the Old Block, the Ancient of Days.

    Paul told the Old Time Jews that the Rock was Christ.

    "For I do not want you to be unaware, brothers, that our fathers were all under the cloud, and all passed through the sea, and all were baptized into Moses in the cloud and in the sea, and all ate the same spiritual food, and all drank the same spiritual drink. For they drank from the spiritual Rock that followed them, and the Rock was Christ. - 1 Corinthians 10

    So this means that the pre-incarnate Jesus was the God of the Old Testament..

    When God said let US make man in OUR image after OUR likeness, it was the pre-incarnate Christ speaking to His Father.

    When Joshua met the Commander of the Lord's Army outside the walls of Jericho, that was also the pre-incarnate Christ.

    "Now when Joshua was near Jericho, he looked up and saw a man standing in front of him with a drawn sword in his hand. Joshua went up to him and asked, “Are you for us or for our enemies?”

    “Neither,” he replied, “but as commander of the army of the Lord I have now come.” Then Joshua fell facedown to the ground in reverence, and asked him, “What message does my Lord have for his servant?”

    "The commander of the Lord’s army replied, “Take off your sandals, for the place where you are standing is holy.” And Joshua did so. - Joshua 5

    Take off your sandals, and Joshua did so.

    Man, I hope they can replay this scene.

    I would have loved to have been a fly on the Jericho Wall.

    Notice the Commander of the Lord's Army didn't tell Joshua NOT to worship Him like the Revelation angels did with John?

    That's because the Son deserves worship, because He and the Father are One.

    With Him, His Father is well pleased.

    "And a voice from heaven said, “This is My beloved Son, in whom I am well pleased!” - Matthew 3:17

    Peaceful Sabbath.
     
  13. Deeje

    Deeje Avid Bible Student
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    FWIW, I will give you my thoughts and what I believe is the Bible’s view on these points.....
    What did John Chau do? Yelled at hostile people in a language they did not understand? Seriously? That is not preaching the gospel. What did Paul say about that?

    1 Corinthians 14:8-9.....
    “For if the trumpet sounds an indistinct call, who will get ready for battle? 9 In the same way, unless you with the tongue use speech that is easily understood, how will anyone know what is being said? You will, in fact, be speaking into the air.”

    Don’t you see, he accomplished nothing of value except in his own estimations....what a sad waste of a life. :(

    What “end” had come? The “end” that Jesus spoke of in Matthew 24:14 was the end of the present system of things, where the devil rules this world. (1 John 5:19) The “end” will come when satan is abyssed and the “goats” receive their sentence. God’s kingdom will then rule the world....as Jesus said...”Thy kingdom come, thy will be done, on earth as it is in heaven”.

    Daniel also foretold this event. (Daniel 2:44) The Kingdom "comes" in a very powerful way.


    I hope you can see that despite his dedication to his self proclaimed mission, John Chau did not fulfill Matthew 24:14 because the people he preached to did not understand a word he said. Unless he spoke their language, his useless words dissolved in the air.
    And the scriptures clearly state that Christ’s disciples would not reach everyone before the end came.

    At Matthew 10:22-23.....Jesus told his disciples...
    “And you will be hated by all people on account of my name, but the one who has endured to the end will be saved. 23 When they persecute you in one city, flee to another; for truly I say to you, you will by no means complete the circuit of the cities of Israel until the Son of man arrives.”

    When persecution was threatened, the disciples were to flee from the danger. They were not to expect that they would reach every city, so why did John Chau risk his life? Were his motives as honorable as he imagined? Or was his presumption wrong?

    In view of what the scriptures say, North Sentinel was not a “biggie” at all. It was not really any kind of victory for Christ, nor for the people, or for John Chau. He is not a martyr because he went there ignorant of the true mission of a Christian and failing to follow the Biblical admonition of his Master.
     
  14. Deeje

    Deeje Avid Bible Student
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    This was directed at Christ’s disciples who were visiting their own neighbors, in villages in their vicinity, who already worshipped the same God. They could be met with stiff opposition because these preachers were seen as apostates to Judaism. Jesus told them to expect opposition yet he said if people listened to him, some would also listen to his disciples. (John 15:18-21) But they were not to force the message. If people refused to listen, then they were to move on, ‘shaking the dust from their feet’ instead of having the customary foot washing that a visitor could expect.

    In view of what the scriptures say, I cannot agree. They say “a little knowledge is a dangerous thing” and I think John Chau’s experience demonstrates this very thing. If someone had bothered to tell him ALL that the scriptures teach instead of that little bit that was fed to him, there might have been a more productive and less tragic outcome. :(

    OK.....use of the words “elect infants” is troubling here, because there is no such expression ever used in the Christian scriptures. The “elect” are literally “chosen ones” who are adults who have come to Christ, (being drawn by God) and who experience what Paul calls, “the heavenly calling” (Hebrews 3:1) This calling is a spirit anointing for a chosen few, mentioned in Revelation 20:6...

    “Happy and holy is anyone having part in the first resurrection; over these the second death has no authority, but they will be priests of God and of the Christ, and they will rule as kings with him for the 1,000 years.

    The “elect” have a specific role and are the only ones who will go to heaven. Life in heaven was never God’s purpose for humankind in the beginning. He placed us here as physical, mortals beings on a material Earth, in a material universe. There was never any reason for humans to go to heaven because God designed us to live forever on earth. Death was never supposed to happen. It was only mentioned to Adam as a penalty for disobedience. It is called "the last enemy" to be defeated. (1 Corinthians 15:26; Revelation 21:2-4)

    If the humans had simply obeyed God’s command, they never would have died and Jesus would never have needed to redeem us as Adam’s sin-laden children.

    If those who go to heaven are to be “kings and priests” who do you think will be their subjects....and for whom will they act as priests?
    In view of God’s words at Isaiah 55:11....He always finishes what he starts.
     
  15. Deeje

    Deeje Avid Bible Student
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    Jesus is the “only begotten son” of his Father but he is not the only “son of God". All of those created by God are called sons, including Adam.
    Where does Jesus ever claim equality with his God and Father? Where does God ever call Jesus, “God”? Or refer to him as an equal?

    If Jesus was God, then as an immortal, he could not die. If Jesus did not die, then the redemption price is not paid and we are all still condemned to death. This would also mean that mere humans can kill God. To put Jesus in the same position as his Father is a breach of the first Commandment. (Exodus 20:3) It is actually blasphemy.

    Actually, it was the other way around. This was God addressing his “Master Worker”. (Proverbs 8:30-31) The pre-human Jesus was the assistant, not the Creator.

    Some research on the word “ pro·sky·neʹo” translated as "worship" but also "obeisance", would help here. There is a difference between worship and obeisance. Jesus accepted one but would not accept the other. He told the devil that God alone must be worshipped. (Luke 4:5-8)
     
  16. Deeje

    Deeje Avid Bible Student
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    I would like to address this bit of misinformation.....

    I am actually very happy that JW's do not have anything in common with Christendom. But please do not call that disunited rabble, "Christianity"...that could not be further from the truth. (1 Corinthians 1:10)
    I know because I was raised in Christendom. I know what they believe and its absolute rubbish. But it was foretold that an apostasy would take place, when Jesus gave his parable of the "wheat" and the "weeds". Christendom pretends it never happened. But it took place gradually, so from the second century onward, Christianity took a downward spiral, from which they have never recovered. Ideas and pagan religious concepts that crept in centuries ago, still remain. The most blasphemous of all is the trinity.

    JW's do believe in a different God because we serve the same God that Jesus did. Never once did he claim to be God Almighty, and nowhere will we ever find mention of Jesus' claiming equality with his Father. We do believe that Jesus is who he said he was...."the Son of God" (John 10:31-36)...you will not find the expression "God the Son" in any passage of scripture. You won't find "God the Holy Spirit" either...these are an invention of Catholicism.

    We believe in Christ the way he taught us to believe. To place the son on equal footing with the Father is a breach of the first Commandment. (Exodus 20:3) and to call Jesus "God" is blasphemy. We will not have a bar of it.

    We worship the same God that Jesus does, even in heaven....he does not recognize the triune god of Christendom because that god does not exist.
     
  17. Dave Watchman

    Dave Watchman Active Member

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    But Jesus is the only son begotten of God.

    Jesus is somehow different than the rest of created beings.

    Jesus is the only One cut from the fabric, born, of God.

    When God gave Jesus a name ABOVE ALL names.

    Jesus is humble, He humbled himself.

    What did you think He was talking about when he said before Moses was, I Am.

    That's the same thing He told Moses when Moses asked what His name was when He was the God of the OT.

    I Am.

    Jesus is the great "I Am."

    He and the Father are One.

    Equal with God.

    Jesus = God.

    So that EVERY knee shall bow.

    To the glory of God the Father.

    "Have this mind among yourselves, which is yours in Christ Jesus, who, though he was in the form of God, did not count equality with God a thing to be grasped, but emptied himself, by taking the form of a servant, being born in the likeness of men. And being found in human form, he humbled himself by becoming obedient to the point of death, even death on a cross.

    Therefore God has highly exalted him and bestowed on him the name that is above every name, so that at the name of Jesus every knee should bow, in heaven and on earth and under the earth, and every tongue confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father. - Philippians 2

    This to me is elementary, my Dear Deeje.

    I knew that one. An SDA guy showed me that in 2013 when he was talking about the Pope.

    It can also mean to submit to, or obey.

    Like kissing the Pope's ring.

    Perish the thought.
     
  18. Pilgrim Soldier

    Pilgrim Soldier Active Member

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    The problem is, the JW sect teaches heresy, they call Jesus a liar. Christians don't believe that Jesus is a liar, we believe every word He ever spoke.
    Jesus is Jehovah God, He said that about Himself, He said I created all things that exist so how can the JW's claim that Jesus created Himself, it just absurd to suggest such a blatant heresy.
    How can God create Himself when He already exists, I've never heard anything more foolish
     
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  19. Dave Watchman

    Dave Watchman Active Member

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    You know it and I know it Pilgrim.

    But the JWs have some parts of their wiring harness that need untangling.

    Since they still are supposed to be our brothers and our fellow servants, maybe we can be nice and help them out from time to time. :)
     
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  20. Deeje

    Deeje Avid Bible Student
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    If you think about it, the scriptures themselves paint a clear picture. "Only begotten" in Greek is "monogenes" and it is applied to an only child elsewhere in scripture. How can Jesus be an "only child" when all of God angels are called "sons of God"? (Psalm 89:6) Even Adam was called a "son of God" (Luke 3:38) so what was unique about Jesus?

    Paul clears it up...
    Colossians 1:15-17 says of Jesus......
    "He is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of all creation; 16 because by means of him all other things were created in the heavens and on the earth, the things visible and the things invisible, whether they are thrones or lordships or governments or authorities. All other things have been created through him and for him. 17 Also, he is before all other things, and by means of him all other things were made to exist".

    What do you see there? He is the very first and only direct creation of God. All other things came "through" the son but not from him. He was before everything else, existing in the realm where his Father had already spent an eternity.

    When I really examined Philippians 2:5-11, I realized that I had not read it correctly.

    "Keep this mental attitude in you that was also in Christ Jesus, 6 who, although he was existing in God’s form, gave no consideration to a seizure, namely, that he should be equal to God. 7 No, but he emptied himself and took a slave’s form and became human. 8 More than that, when he came as a man, he humbled himself and became obedient to the point of death, yes, death on a torture stake. 9 For this very reason, God exalted him to a superior position and kindly gave him the name that is above every other name, 10 so that in the name of Jesus every knee should bend—of those in heaven and those on earth and those under the ground— 11 and every tongue should openly acknowledge that Jesus Christ is Lord to the glory of God the Father."

    Some points to ponder....
    1) What "form" does God have? The Bible tells us that "God is a spirit"...and so was Jesus before his earthly sojourn. So that doesn't mean that he was God, only that they were both spirit beings.
    2) Jesus never even considered that equality with God was something to "grasp" for himself.
    3) He humbled himself and became "obedient"....obedient to whom? If he is God why does he need to be obedient...to himself?
    4) God exalted him.....how does God exalt God? How can he be given a name higher than what he already has?
    5) Jesus is Lord....to his own glory? NO! to the glory of his Father, who is also his God.

    Not even close.... God's name in Exodus 3:13-15 never was "I AM"....that is completely incorrect.
    According to the Tanakh, God's name is יְהֹוָ֞ה
    YHWH...Yahweh....Jehovah. His name means "I WILL BE" not "I AM"....

    "And Moses said to God, "Behold I come to the children of Israel, and I say to them, 'The God of your fathers has sent me to you,' and they say to me, 'What is His name?' what shall I say to them?" יגוַיֹּ֨אמֶר משֶׁ֜ה אֶל־הָֽאֱלֹהִ֗ים הִנֵּ֨ה אָֽנֹכִ֣י בָא֘ אֶל־בְּנֵ֣י יִשְׂרָאֵל֒ וְאָֽמַרְתִּ֣י לָהֶ֔ם אֱלֹהֵ֥י אֲבֽוֹתֵיכֶ֖ם שְׁלָחַ֣נִי אֲלֵיכֶ֑ם וְאָֽמְרוּ־לִ֣י מַה־שְּׁמ֔וֹ מָ֥ה אֹמַ֖ר אֲלֵהֶֽם:

    14God said to Moses, "Ehyeh asher ehyeh (I will be what I will be)," and He said, "So shall you say to the children of Israel, 'Ehyeh (I will be) has sent me to you.'" ידוַיֹּ֤אמֶר אֱלֹהִים֙ אֶל־משֶׁ֔ה אֶֽהְיֶ֖ה אֲשֶׁ֣ר אֶֽהְיֶ֑ה וַיֹּ֗אמֶר כֹּ֤ה תֹאמַר֙ לִבְנֵ֣י יִשְׂרָאֵ֔ל אֶֽהְיֶ֖ה שְׁלָחַ֥נִי אֲלֵיכֶֽם:

    15And God said further to Moses, "So shall you say to the children of Israel, 'The Lord God of your forefathers, the God of Abraham, the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob, has sent me to you.' This is My name forever, and this is how I should be mentioned in every generation. טווַיֹּ֩אמֶר֩ ע֨וֹד אֱלֹהִ֜ים אֶל־משֶׁ֗ה כֹּ֣ה תֹאמַר֘ אֶל־בְּנֵ֣י יִשְׂרָאֵל֒ יְהֹוָ֞ה אֱלֹהֵ֣י אֲבֹֽתֵיכֶ֗ם אֱלֹהֵ֨י אַבְרָהָ֜ם אֱלֹהֵ֥י יִצְחָ֛ק וֵֽאלֹהֵ֥י יַֽעֲקֹ֖ב שְׁלָחַ֣נִי אֲלֵיכֶ֑ם זֶה־שְּׁמִ֣י לְעֹלָ֔ם וְזֶ֥ה זִכְרִ֖י לְדֹ֥ר דֹּֽר:


    https://www.chabad.org/library/bible_cdo/aid/9864

    Exodus bears no connection to John 8:58 where Jesus is simply replying to a question about his age. He was saying that he existed before Abraham which the Bible says is true.

    See above...it is not elementary at all. It is misinterpreted and therefore completely misunderstood.

    You can bow before royalty in humble respect, (Jesus was a king after all) but he would refuse worship because he is NOT God.
     
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