1. Welcome to Religious Forums, a friendly forum to discuss all religions in a friendly surrounding.

    Your voice is missing! You will need to register to get access to the following site features:
    • Reply to discussions and create your own threads.
    • Our modern chat room. No add-ons or extensions required, just login and start chatting!
    • Access to private conversations with other members.

    We hope to see you as a part of our community soon!

Featured If Christianity is the truth then Judaism is also the truth

Discussion in 'General Religious Debates' started by Meandflower, Jan 23, 2021.

  1. Trailblazer

    Trailblazer Veteran Member

    Joined:
    Dec 27, 2017
    Messages:
    21,274
    Ratings:
    +5,770
    Religion:
    Baha'i
    Me too.
     
    • Like Like x 1
  2. Batya

    Batya Always Forward

    Joined:
    Jan 1, 2021
    Messages:
    176
    Ratings:
    +54
    Religion:
    Hebrew Roots
    I don't know what commentators you're looking at, and what exactly they're saying is legitimate (that YHWH might have destroyed His people?), but Deu 9 is recounting the golden calf scenario, starting with verses 4 and 5:

    4 “Do not think in your heart, after the Lord your God has cast them out before you, saying, ‘Because of my righteousness the Lord has brought me in to possess this land’; but it is because of the wickedness of these nations that the Lord is driving them out from before you. 5 It is not because of your righteousness or the uprightness of your heart that you go in to possess their land, but because of the wickedness of these nations that the Lord your God drives them out from before you, and that He may fulfill the word which the Lord swore to your fathers, to Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob.

    So, this is laying out that YHWH is giving them the land, not because they deserved it, but because of His covenant with Abraham.
    Then it goes on to tell that they made YHWH angry enough to have destroyed them... it doesn't say he would have. We can know that He wouldn't have done that because of His covenant with Abraham (Gen 15). I would suggest you study ancient covenants, particularly blood covenants.
    Moses then "stood in the gap," so to speak, entreating YHWH to not destroy His people, calling on him to remember His covenant. Deu 9:26-29:

    26 Therefore I prayed to the Lord, and said: ‘O Lord God, do not destroy Your people and Your inheritance whom You have redeemed through Your greatness, whom You have brought out of Egypt with a mighty hand. 27 Remember Your servants, Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob; do not look on the stubbornness of this people, or on their wickedness or their sin, 28 lest the land from which You brought us should say, “Because the Lord was not able to bring them to the land which He promised them, and because He hated them, He has brought them out to kill them in the wilderness.” 29 Yet they are Your people and Your inheritance, whom You brought out by Your mighty power and by Your outstretched arm.’

    I keep mentioning covenant, but it really is vital to understand. YHWH will stand by his word to Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob, therefore no matter how much His people may stray, He will never utterly destroy them.

    35 Thus says the Lord,
    Who gives the sun for a light by day,
    The ordinances of the moon and the stars for a light by night,
    Who disturbs the sea,
    And its waves roar
    (The Lord of hosts is His name):
    36 “If those ordinances depart
    From before Me, says the Lord,
    Then the seed of Israel shall also cease
    From being a nation before Me forever.”
    Jeremiah 31:35-36

    As for speaking of raising up children to Abraham from the stones (John the baptist said that), in my reading of that it has nothing to do with replacing Israel (he wasn't speaking to "Christians"). He was telling them not to place their confidence in being physical descendants of Abraham. That to be a true son of Abraham they needed do as he did and walk in righteousness.
     
  3. Brickjectivity

    Brickjectivity Veteran Member
    Staff Member Premium Member

    Joined:
    Dec 8, 2012
    Messages:
    30,542
    Ratings:
    +11,430
    Religion:
    liber-scripta grim Christian
    So sorry. I should have included the verse. 9:14 says (to Moses) "Let me alone, so that I may destroy them and blot out their name from under heaven. And I will make you into a nation stronger and more numerous than they." Its much discussed and often related to Jesus quoted claim in the Christian gospel "...out of these stones God can raise up children for Abraham..." (from Luke 3:8) The catholic writers appear to take the view that physical lineage is not of importance as does Jesus as far as can be seen. It doesn't imply any change in Judaism. Judaism allows adoption and conversation etc. Its hardly a problem as far as I can tell. They can do without a temple, so clearly they can also do without Levites. I don't see a problem if their scripture says they are replaceable with other individuals. I'm not suggesting that Christianity replaces Judaism.
     
    • Like Like x 1
  4. Musing Bassist

    Musing Bassist Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    May 18, 2014
    Messages:
    2,702
    Ratings:
    +1,268
    Religion:
    Catholicism
    Christianity accepts that Hebrew Bible is divinely inspired. It further accepts that the Hebrew religion as laid out in that Hebrew Bible was revealed by God. That recognition however does not extend to the post-incarnation religion laid out in the Talmud and later texts. Which if Christianity is true must necessarily be false. As obviously both cannot be simultaneously true.

    Either Jesus was who the New Testament says he was and Judaism is wrong in its denial of him. Or, he was a false messiah and Christianity is but a heresy. Albeit a very successful one.
     
    #44 Musing Bassist, Jan 23, 2021
    Last edited: Jan 23, 2021
  5. Trailblazer

    Trailblazer Veteran Member

    Joined:
    Dec 27, 2017
    Messages:
    21,274
    Ratings:
    +5,770
    Religion:
    Baha'i
    What is the post-incarnation religion laid out in the Talmud and later texts? I am not familiar with the Hebrew Bible.
    The New Testament says many things. Who do you think Jesus was according to the New Testament?
    What do you think it means to say that Jesus was the Messiah? Is the following accurate according to your understanding?

    What is Messiah in Christianity?

    The term Messiah is Hebrew and means 'anointed one'. This is a title given to the person believed to be the saviour, who has been chosen to bring salvation to humankind. The term 'anointed one' is used in both Christianity and Judaism. Christians believe that the Messiah was sent by God to save humanity.

    Jesus as Messiah - Jesus as God Incarnate - GCSE Religious ... - BBC

    In Jewish eschatology, the term mashiach, or "Messiah", refers specifically to a future Jewish king from the Davidic line, who is expected to save the Jewish nation, and will be anointed with holy anointing oil and rule the Jewish people during the Messianic Age.

    Messiah in Judaism - Wikipedia

    It says that Christians believe that the Messiah (presumably Jesus) was sent by God to save humanity, but according to my understanding Christians believe that only Christians will be saved. It says Jews believe that the Messiah will come to save the Jewish nation, not all of humanity, and that is correct, according to my understanding.
     
  6. firedragon

    firedragon Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Jun 11, 2013
    Messages:
    9,166
    Ratings:
    +2,490
    Christianity does not bank on Judaism. Thats the wrong notion. It is the Tanakh, which they call the Old Testament, not Judaism. The Christian interpretation of the Tanakh is absolutely an enemy of the theology of Judaism. For Christianity as an entity, Judaism was a false religion who's scripture they had never understood in history.

    But I think since you seem to be talking from a naturalistic point of view, yes of course Judaism was the first or older religion.
     
    • Useful Useful x 1
  7. Tumah

    Tumah Veteran Member

    Joined:
    Dec 17, 2013
    Messages:
    11,720
    Ratings:
    +8,395
    Religion:
    Mega-Super-Ultra-Orthodox Judaism
    Before the 3rd century, virtually the entire world was pagan. Paganism was quite successful.
    If Christianity is wrong, paganism continued to be very successful while taking on a more unified tone in some parts of the world.
     
    • Like Like x 1
    • Creative Creative x 1
  8. Musing Bassist

    Musing Bassist Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    May 18, 2014
    Messages:
    2,702
    Ratings:
    +1,268
    Religion:
    Catholicism
    Christianity emerged as a Jewish sect near the tail end of the second temple period. The Judaism of this period was a temple based cult with a wide variety of sects with the Pharisees being but one. What we call Judaism today derives from the Pharisee sect. All other sects vanished after the destruction of the temple. (Christianity being the other survivor). The point is that Christianity is not an off-shoot of Rabbinic Judaism, but rather began as a roughly contemporaneous rival sect that over time became its own religion.

    Of course, both Judaism and Christianity may be false, but for the purpose of this thread I assume either the validity of Judaism or Christianity.
     
    • Informative Informative x 1
  9. Tumah

    Tumah Veteran Member

    Joined:
    Dec 17, 2013
    Messages:
    11,720
    Ratings:
    +8,395
    Religion:
    Mega-Super-Ultra-Orthodox Judaism
    I wasn't addressing that point.
     
  10. Deeje

    Deeje Avid Bible Student
    Premium Member

    Joined:
    Jun 20, 2009
    Messages:
    13,417
    Ratings:
    +7,331
    Religion:
    Christian JW
    Well said.

    It was the self-righteous Pharisees and Sadducees who wanted to silence this prophet who was making them look bad. This one claimed to be the "son of God", the long awaited Messiah, produced by the seed of Abraham as promised through Moses. But as was brought out, being "sons of Abraham" did not grant these Jewish leaders and those who followed them, immunity for their disobedience and where they led the people.

    John the Baptist said of them.....
    "When he caught sight of many of the Pharisees and Sadducees coming to the baptism, he said to them: “You offspring of vipers, who has warned you to flee from the coming wrath? 8 Therefore, produce fruit that befits repentance. 9 Do not presume to say to yourselves, ‘We have Abraham as our father.’ For I say to you that God is able to raise up children for Abraham from these stones. 10 The ax is already lying at the root of the trees. Every tree, then, that does not produce fine fruit is to be cut down and thrown into the fire."

    Their 'presumption' was an illusion, thinking that being "sons of Abraham" somehow absolved them from their responsibility to obey their God. They had a habit of silencing the prophets sent to them, instead of changing their ways. They never did produce "the fruits of repentance" and as a result, the ax was swung, and the tree "cut down and thrown into the fire".

    Jesus summed up their aberrant behavior in Matthew 23:37-39......
    "Jerusalem, Jerusalem, the killer of the prophets and stoner of those sent to her—how often I wanted to gather your children together the way a hen gathers her chicks under her wings! But you did not want it. 38 Look! Your house is abandoned to you. 39 For I say to you, you will by no means see me from now until you say, ‘Blessed is the one who comes in Jehovah’s name!’

    The Jews were "abandoned" as serial covenant breakers who murdered their prophets and stubbornly refused to change their ways....but those who followed the teachings of Jesus Christ were blessed with God's spirit and backing.

    Some decades following Jesus' death and resurrection, the Romans destroyed Jerusalem and its temple (the most sacred place in Jewish worship) but it was never rebuilt because Jesus' sacrifice removed the need for it.

    Can Jews explain the reason why God allowed his Temple to be destroyed again? In times past it was allowed as a punishment and his people were exiled to a foreign land. But after an appointed time, God commanded that his people return to their homeland and his Temple be rebuilt.....and it was, in record time when a Jewish remnant returned from exile in Babylon to re-establish Jehovah's worship.

    Have the Jews had God's blessing in the 2,000 years since Christ's death? Has their homeland known peace? Has their Messiah manifested himself with the necessary credentials to prove his claims? When the records were destroyed in Jerusalem in 70 CE by the Romans, no Jew can prove his lineage in a direct line of decent to King David, so there can be no verified Messiah in our time. (Psalm 89:3-4) In contrast, those ancestral records did exist in Jesus’ time.....and not even his enemies successfully challenged his claim of being a descendant of David. (Matthew 22:41-46)

    Jesus did not come to establish a new religion but to institute a new covenant. The old covenant was dissolved and the new one replaced it, fulfilling God's promise to Abraham that people of all the nations would be blessed by this seed. (Genesis 22:17-18)

    Despite an apostasy foretold for Christianity too, God was going to cleanse a people in "the time of the end" to preach his message of salvation "In all the inhabited earth" before he brought an end to this wicked world. (Daniel 12:4, 9-10; Matthew 24:14) These would be messengers of peace, no part of the world and its desires or goals, but dedicated to the task that Jesus assigned them. (Matthew 28:19-20)
     
  11. Clara Tea

    Clara Tea Active Member

    Joined:
    Sep 21, 2020
    Messages:
    572
    Ratings:
    +173
    I paraphrased a couple of passages and tried not to take them out of context.

    1. Jesus asked God "why hath thou forsaken me?" Which means that it was not Jesus's idea to die to expunge the sins of mankind. However, God (all powerful) allowed his son to die, so dying might have been God's idea. Also, prior to dying, Jesus had incredible powers (such as making a blind man see), so it stands to reason that Jesus could have blinded Pontius Pilate if had wanted to, but it could be that God had stripped Jesus of his powers, so he was unable to prevent his crucifixion.

    2. You assume that Christians are right and Jews are wrong. But, maybe the Jews are right and the Christians are wrong. The prediction of a Messiah was in ancient Hebrew. Jews were experts in ancient Hebrew. Hebrew was forbidden to speak and was wiped out as a language. Jews "somewhat" revived the Hebrew language, and that "new" Hebrew is the official language of Israel. It is sufficient to partially translate bible passages and ancient Hebrew written in stone. The question is....who is better at translating old Hebrew (those who don't speak the language or those who do)? Also, who is more of an expert on Jewish prophecies (Jews or non-Jews). Don't you suppose that Jews would convert to Christianity if they thought that Jesus had fulfilled their ancient prophecy? Calling someone untruthful is hurtful and mean. Is that what Christianity teaches? Look at all of the wars fought in the name of Jesus (Crusades, etc). Look at all of the horrible things that the Christians have done (Hitler's Nazi movement....Inquisition, etc). Perhaps Christianity is not the correct path of God?
     
    • Like Like x 1
  12. Tumah

    Tumah Veteran Member

    Joined:
    Dec 17, 2013
    Messages:
    11,720
    Ratings:
    +8,395
    Religion:
    Mega-Super-Ultra-Orthodox Judaism
    Based on that alone, that means Christianity should have never gotten off the ground, because the first Christians were all Jews and "God wants Jews to follow the Tanakh/old testament and Talmud. Because that is God's covenant with the Jews." Which means they should never have stopped following Judaism.
     
    • Winner Winner x 2
  13. Clara Tea

    Clara Tea Active Member

    Joined:
    Sep 21, 2020
    Messages:
    572
    Ratings:
    +173
    Palestine in the Time of Jesus

    King Herod was an Edomite (Black from Africa--descended from Cush) on his father's side, and therefore raised as a Jew. However, Herod was working for the Romans. Wikipedia says that Herod was Arab on both sides of his family. The bible describes Edomites as descendants of Esau (and therefore Jewish), but Edomite's Jewish religion was a result of comingling with Jews around them.

    I suspect that the Olmec civilization of Mexico is Edomite, and likely had various civilizations as translators for trade.

    According to the website, above, you made the mistake of blaming Jews for the action of Jerusalem. Sure, at one time Jerusalem was a Jewish territory. But, in Jesus's day, Jerusalem was ruled by Roman vassal King Herod the Great.

    It was the Roman Herod who ordered the "Massacre of the Innocents."

    So, Jews were not abandoned as serial covenant breakers who murdered prophets. Rather, Romans murdered those prophets.

    It is also worth noting that Romans murdered Jesus, then took the Christian religion (likely because they could see that it was powerful, and they were power-mad). Then they ruled the Catholic religion from the Vatican (in the country of Rome), and part of Rome became Italy. Having ruled from the Vatican, the Romans were able to blame others for their crimes. They had accused Jews of killing Jesus, for example.

    Petra, an Edomite city, was a mecca for trading throughout the area, and the architecture shows the various styles of the various cultures. Only 1% of Petra has been excavated over the past 100 years (see Libbey and Hoskins), but is currently undertaken by the Jordanian Department of Antiaquities, University of Jordan, University of Utah, and Swiss archaeologists.

    https://www.journals.uchicago.edu/doi/pdfplus/10.2307/3209256

    Link above states that "at the beginning of the 13th century B.C. a new agricultural civilization appeared in Trnasjordan belonging to the Edomites, Moabites, Ammonites, and Amorites.

    https://www.andrews.edu/weblmsc/moo...0/Bartlett Edom and the Fall of Jerusalem.pdf

    https://citeseerx.ist.psu.edu/viewdoc/download?doi=10.1.1.1004.506&rep=rep1&type=pdf

    Edomites Research Papers - Academia.edu

    https://digitalassets.lib.berkeley.edu/etd/ucb/text/Brown_berkeley_0028E_18234.pdf

    https://ksj.mit.edu/tracker-archive/nytimes-near-east-archeologists-find-sig/

    https://www.biola.edu/blogs/good-bo...ions-part-1-the-amalekites-and-the-midianites

    https://minds.wisconsin.edu/bitstream/handle/1793/8036/wayne.html

    https://www.spurlock.illinois.edu/collections/search-collection/details.php?a=1989.11.0007
     
  14. Harel13

    Harel13 Nin-Jew Master
    Staff Member Premium Member

    Joined:
    Nov 20, 2019
    Messages:
    5,260
    Ratings:
    +4,919
    Religion:
    Orthodox Judaism
    Two questions:
    a. How did you get from Edomite to African descended from Cush?
    b. Where do you find in the Bible that Edomites are defined "Jewish"?
     
    • Like Like x 4
  15. rational experiences

    rational experiences Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Jan 2, 2020
    Messages:
    4,346
    Ratings:
    +175
    Religion:
    spiritualist
    All humans are human.

    Where you live....on God planet earth.

    Talking is free...as is an opinion.

    Opinion is not status.

    If you discuss science and how it changed life. It is information for humans without status.

    We share information as extended family for human life continuance

    First of all science was wrong.

    Basic advice.

    Science thought by a human.

    Obvious.

    A human opposed other humans.

    A teaching about life.

    Is not status.

    I admire the Baha'i teaching stating information changed advice,....
    So always be prepared to be taught.
     
  16. PruePhillip

    PruePhillip Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Jul 20, 2018
    Messages:
    4,363
    Ratings:
    +575
    Religion:
    None
    Jacob in Egypt spoke of a future Hebrew nation. And through the line of Judah there would be a
    monarchy. This monarchy would protect The Law. And it would end with the Messiah, who would
    not belong so much to the Jews (though coming from the line of Judah - kings and not priests) as
    be one who the whole world would believe in.
    Not sure who Judaism sees this.
    And Job said his Redeemer lives now and would one day be upon the earth.
    Who is this Redeemer?
    And Zechariah said the Jews would see their Jewish Messiah was the same
    lowly figure they pierced.

    Yes, Judaism is the original - but it doesn't necessarily say what many Jews want it to say.
     
    • Like Like x 1
  17. shunyadragon

    shunyadragon shunyadragon
    Premium Member

    Joined:
    Mar 23, 2017
    Messages:
    16,647
    Ratings:
    +7,920
    Religion:
    Baha'i Faith
    Actually no, and does not reflect history. At the time the followers of Jesus were limited to the apostles and disorganized followers. As in the brutal suppression of the Hebrew rebellion ~50 AD Rome was strong and decisive concerning any rebellion in the Palestine region. As the real history shows Rome did not fear rebellion and claims of being the King of the Jews, and slaughtered and crucified all involved. There were other better organized armed rebellions the Rome crushed ruthlessly,

    Your story sounds good if the gospels were accurate history, but they are not.
     
    #57 shunyadragon, Jan 24, 2021
    Last edited: Jan 24, 2021
    • Like Like x 1
  18. Jayhawker Soule

    Jayhawker Soule <yawn> ignore </yawn>
    Premium Member

    Joined:
    May 15, 2004
    Messages:
    40,178
    Ratings:
    +14,249
    Religion:
    Judaism
    And you know this how?
     
    • Like Like x 2
  19. Audie

    Audie Veteran Member

    Joined:
    Feb 18, 2018
    Messages:
    18,836
    Ratings:
    +9,599
    Religion:
    None
    Assertatialism
     
  20. stvdv

    stvdv Veteran Member

    Joined:
    Mar 28, 2018
    Messages:
    11,314
    Ratings:
    +6,218
    Religion:
    Sanathana Dharma [The Eternal Religion]
    Judaism is as true a Religion as the other Religions
     
Loading...