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Featured If Christianity is the truth then Judaism is also the truth

Discussion in 'General Religious Debates' started by Meandflower, Jan 23, 2021.

  1. Subduction Zone

    Subduction Zone Veteran Member

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    Jesus also says that he is not God. Which Jesus do you believe?
     
  2. Deeje

    Deeje Avid Bible Student
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    Now that really cracked me up....thanks for the laugh. [​IMG]

    Heretics calling out heretics. I guess we should allow Jesus to do his job of judging then eh?

    Those teaching lies about Jesus pointing the finger.....:D....no wonder history repeats.
    Please quote Jesus ever saying that he is Jehovah God.

    Since we do not believe that Jesus is Jehovah God, we do not believe that he created himself...his God and Father Jehovah did.
    You are calling your own inaccurate evaluation.....foolish. [​IMG] Good one.
     
  3. Pilgrim Soldier

    Pilgrim Soldier Active Member

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    Show me where Jesus says that He's not God????
     
    #183 Pilgrim Soldier, Feb 6, 2021
    Last edited by a moderator: Feb 7, 2021
  4. Subduction Zone

    Subduction Zone Veteran Member

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    1. Matthew 24:36
    No one knows about that day or hour, not even the Son, but the Father only.
    Here Jesus makes a distinction between what he knows and what the Father knows.

    2. Matthew 26:39
    My Father, if it is possible, may this cup be taken from me, yet not as I will, but as Thou will.
    Jesus’ will is likewise autonomous from God’s Will. Jesus is seeking acquiescence to God’s will.

    3. John 5:26
    For as the Father has life in Himself, so he has granted the Son to have life in himself.
    Jesus received his life from God. God received his life from no one. He is eternally self-existent.

    4. John 5:30
    By myself, I can do nothing: I judge only as I hear, and my judgment is just, for I seek not to please myself but him who has sent me.
    Jesus says, “by myself, I can do nothing.” This indicates that Jesus is relying upon his own relationship with God. He is not trying to “please myself” but rather is seeking to “please the one who sent me.”

    5. John 5:19
    The Son can do nothing by himself; he can do only what he sees the Father doing, because whatever the Father does, the Son does also.
    Jesus declares that he is following a pattern laid down by God. He is expressing obedience to God.

    6. Mark 10:18
    Why do you call me good? No one is good, except God alone.
    Here Jesus emphatically makes a distinction between himself and God.

    7. John 14:28
    The Father is greater than I.
    This is another strong statement that makes a distinction between Jesus and God.

    8. Matthew 6:9
    Our Father, which art in Heaven.
    He didn’t pray, Our Father, which art standing right here!”

    9. Matthew 27:46
    My God, My God, why hast thou forsaken me?
    Inconceivable if he is God the Creator.

    10. John 17:21-23
    . . .that all of them may be one, Father, just as you are in me and I am in you. May they also be in us so that the world may believe that you have sent me. . ..that they may be one as we are one: I in them and you in me.
    In this prayer Jesus defines the term “to be one.” It is clearly accomplished through the relationship of two autonomous beings. Christian believers are to model their relationship (to become one) after the relationship of God and Christ (as God and Christ are one). Notice that “to be one” does not mean to be “one and the same.”

    11. 1 Corinthians 15:27-28
    For he "has put everything under his feet." Now when it says that "everything" has been put under him, it is clear that this does not include God himself, who put everything under Christ. When he has done this, then the Son himself will be made subject to him who put everything under him, so that God may be all in all.
    Paul declares that God put everything under Christ, except God himself. Instead God rules all things through Christ. (remember: “through him all things were made.”)

    12. Hebrews 1:3
    The Son is the radiance of God’s glory and the exact representation of his being.
    Jesus is the exact representation of his being. I send my representative to Congress. He is not me, myself. He is my representative.

    13. Hebrews 4:15 (compared with James 1:13)
    For we do not have a high priest who is unable to sympathize with our weaknesses, but we have one who has been tempted in every way, just as we are—yet without sin.
    Jesus has been tempted in every way, just as we are, yet he never sinned. See

    James 1:13: When tempted, no one should say, God is tempting me. For God cannot be tempted by evil, nor does he tempt.
    Jesus was tempted in every way, but God cannot be tempted. This is why Jesus said, “don’t call me good, none are good, only God.”

    14. Hebrews 5:7-9
    During the days of Jesus' life on earth, he offered up prayers and petitions with loud cries and tears to the one who could save him from death, and he was heard because of his reverent submission. Although he was a son, he learned obedience from what he suffered and, once made perfect, he became the source of eternal salvation for all who obey him
    Jesus had to walk a course of faith and obedience in order to achieve perfection. By achieving perfection, Jesus “became” the source of eternal salvation

    You might have to work on your ability to read them in context.
     
  5. Dave Watchman

    Dave Watchman Active Member

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    Daniel also has someone ask what would be the end of these wonders.

    “How long shall it be till the end of these wonders?”​

    And he gets the 1260, the time, times and half a time. And then another time period is offered up to what I think is another answer giving more detail to the original question.

    From the time that the daily is taken away and the abomination of desolation set up it would be 1290 days, until the end.

    When Jesus said that this Gospel of the kingdom would be preached in the whole world for a witness to all the nations, and then the end shall come, I think it might have something to do with the 1260 and the 1290 days, until the end of these wonders.

    Jesus also said: "But the one who endures to the end will be saved.

    This "end" being referenced, could have something to do with salvation, specifically the salvation of the living, those who are living in very close proximity to the second coming of Christ.

    At that point in time, the only variable are the new births, woe to pregnant woman and nursing mothers.

    This may be why only the Father can know the day and the hour. Only He knows which of the elect are due to be born. These are the ones picked by the Father from before the foundation of the world. Even as he chose us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and blameless before him.

    I consider us to be much closer to the culmination, much closer to the second coming, than the majority suspects.

    And they were unaware until the flood came and took them all away.

    So shall it be at the coming of the Son of Man.
     
  6. Deeje

    Deeje Avid Bible Student
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    Awwe c'mon...resorting to this level of childishness is beneath both of us I hope.

    I am not here to fight, but I will defend when outright falsehood is promoted as truth.

    Why is the onus on me to produce the goods and show you why Jesus is not God....I could fill pages, but I wanted to give you the opportunity to show us where in the scriptures that Jesus claimed to be God.....so do you have the goods or don't you?
     
  7. Deeje

    Deeje Avid Bible Student
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    The prophesies in Daniel amaze me.....especially singling out the exact year when Messiah would present himself. 29CE. We can also calculate when the "time of the end" would commence, (1914 CE) but not when they would end.

    As Jesus showed in his prophecy pointing to the conclusion of the system of things, Jerusalem would be “trampled on by the nations, until the appointed times of the nations” were fulfilled. (Luke 21:24) “Jerusalem” represented the Kingdom of God because its kings were said to sit on “the throne of the kingship of Jehovah.” (1 Chronicles 28:4-5; Matthew 5:34-35) So, the Gentile governments, represented by wild beasts, would ‘trample’ on the right of God’s Kingdom to direct human affairs and would themselves hold sway under Satan’s control.—Compare Luke 4:5, 6.

    For how long would such governments be permitted to exercise this control before Jehovah gave the Kingdom to Jesus Christ? Daniel 4:16 says “seven times”. The Bible shows that in calculating prophetic time, a day is counted as a year. (Ezekiel 4:6; Numbers 14:34) How many “days,” then, are involved? Revelation 11:2, 3 clearly states that 42 months (3 1/2 years) in that prophecy are counted as 1,260 days. Seven years would be twice that, or 2,520 days. Applying the “day for a year” rule would result in 2,520 years.

    When did the counting of the “seven times” begin? After Zedekiah, the last king in the typical Kingdom of God, was removed from the throne in Jerusalem by the Babylonians. (Ezekiel 21:25-27) Finally, by early October of 607 B.C.E. the last vestige of Jewish sovereignty was gone. By that time the Jewish governor, Gedaliah, who had been left in charge by the Babylonians, had been assassinated, and the remaining Jews had fled to Egypt. (Jeremiah, chapters 40-43) Reliable Bible chronology indicates that this took place 70 years before 537 B.C.E., the year in which the Jews returned from captivity; that is, it took place by early October of 607 B.C.E. (Jeremiah 29:10; Dan. 9:2)

    How, then, is the time calculated down to 1914? Counting 2,520 years from early October of 607 B.C.E. brings us to early October of 1914 C.E., as shown on the chart.

    CALCULATING THE “SEVEN TIMES”

    “Seven times” = 7 X 360 = 2,520 years

    A Biblical “time,” or year = 12 X 30 days = 360. (Revelation 11:2, 3; 12:6, 14)

    In the fulfillment of the “seven times” each day equals one year. (Ezekiel 4:6; Numbers 14:34)

    Early October, 607 B.C.E., to December 31, 607 B.C.E.= 1/4 year

    January 1, 606 B.C.E., to December 31, 1 B.C.E. = 606 years

    January 1, 1 C.E., to December 31, 1913 = 1,913 years

    January 1, 1914, to early October, 1914 = 3/4 year

    Total: 2,520 years

    What happened at that time? Jehovah entrusted rulership over mankind to his own Son, Jesus Christ, glorified in the heavens.—Daniel 7:13, 14.

    https://wol.jw.org/en/wol/d/r1/lp-e/1101989220

    That is how we calculate things.
     
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  8. Pilgrim Soldier

    Pilgrim Soldier Active Member

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    ***MOD EDIT*** These are just some of the Bible verses you must deny and trample all over God Word, in order to uphold your view

    1. John 10:30 The Father and I are one.

    2. Philippians 2:5-6 You must have the same attitude that Christ Jesus had. Though he was God, he did not think of equality with God as something to cling to.

    3. John 17:21 That they all may be one; as thou, Father, art in me, and I in thee, that they also may be one in us: that the world may believe that thou hast sent me.

    4. John 1:18 No one has ever seen God, but the one and only Son, who is himself God and is in closest relationship with the Father, has made him known.

    5. Colossians 2:9-10 For in him the whole fullness of deity dwells bodily. and in Christ you have been brought to fullness. He is the head over every power and authority.


    Jesus claimed to be God.

    6. John 10:33 “We are not stoning you for any good work,” they replied, “but for blasphemy, because you, a mere man, claim to be God.”

    7. John 5:18 This was why the Jews were seeking all the more to kill him, because not only was he breaking the Sabbath, but he was even calling God his own Father, making himself equal with God.


    Jesus is the Word.

    8. John 1:1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.

    9. John 1:14 And the Word became flesh and dwelt among us, and we have seen his glory, glory as of the only Son from the Father, full of grace and truth.


    Jesus Christ is the only way into Heaven.

    10. 1 John 5:20 And we know that the Son of God has come and has given us understanding, so that we may know him who is true; and we are in him who is true, in his Son Jesus Christ. He is the true God and eternal life.

    11. Romans 10:13 For “everyone who calls on the name of the Lord will be saved.”


    I am He

    12. John 8:57-58 The people said, “You aren’t even fifty years old. How can you say you have seen Abraham?” Jesus answered, “I tell you the truth, before Abraham was even born, I Am!”

    13. John 8:22-24 This made the Jews ask, “Will he kill himself? Is that why he says, ‘Where I go, you cannot come’?” But he continued, “You are from below; I am from above. You are of this world; I am not of this world. 24 I told you that you would die in your sins; if you do not believe that I am he, you will indeed die in your sins.”

    14. John 13:18-19 “I am not referring to all of you; I know those I have chosen. But this is to fulfill this passage of Scripture: ‘He who shared my bread has turned against me.’ “I am telling you now before it happens, so that when it does happen you will believe that I am who I am.


    First and Last: There’s only one God

    15. Isaiah 44:6 Thus says the LORD, the King of Israel and his Redeemer, the LORD of hosts: “I am the first and I am the last; besides me there is no god.

    16. 1 Corinthians 8:6 Yet for us there is one God, the Father, from whom are all things and for whom we exist, and one Lord, Jesus Christ, through whom are all things and through whom we exist.
     
    #188 Pilgrim Soldier, Feb 6, 2021
    Last edited by a moderator: Feb 7, 2021
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  9. Deeje

    Deeje Avid Bible Student
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    If we correlate this to a parallel fulfillment of the prophesy concerning the fall of Jerusalem (the end of another age) you can see why Jesus said that pregnant women and those nursing very young babies would be at a disadvantage.

    Before the fall of Jerusalem, Jesus had told his disciples to flee to the mountains when they saw the city surrounded by the Roman forces. They must have wondered how that was possible when there seemed to be no way out. The city was besieged on all sides....But inexplicably, the troops withdrew and the Christians in great haste, grabbed a few essentials and obeyed Jesus command not to go back for their belongings....and fled to the mountains. This was quite a test because they had left their livelihoods behind in the city and only had the clothes on their backs and a few essentials. Pregnant women and those with very small children would have found the journey very difficult.

    But their obedience paid off because four years later, the Romans returned out of the blue with no warning...and with a vengeance, they besieged the city once again, this time causing the greatest tragedy against the Jews up to that time. Millions inside the city perished from famine and disease. Any who might have gone back thinking it was a false alarm, would have been caught up in that early holocaust. The city and its temple were completely destroyed as Jesus said it would. Obedience to Christ's commands was life saving.

    I do not believe in predestination because that cancels out free will. God chooses us only after we have shown him our true character. This occurs with adults not children. This is why we will never baptize an infant. They cannot choose to make a vow of dedication to God....and no one can make it for you.

    We do too, which is why we have been out there since the "last days" began preaching the message about God's Kingdom in every nation.

    What is "the good news of God's Kingdom"...in your view?
     
  10. Deeje

    Deeje Avid Bible Student
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    No, actually you demonstrate your own indoctrination. It takes a lot of ignorance to believe that Jesus is God when he never once ever said that he was.....you have to read it into all these verses which tell me that you do not know scripture.....but you do know the script.

    Lets see.....in order.....

    1. John 10:30 The Father and I are one.

    John 17:21-22.... Jesus said of his disciples.... "so that they may all be one, just as you, Father, are in union with me and I am in union with you, that they also may be in union with us, so that the world may believe that you sent me. 22 I have given them the glory that you have given me, in order that they may be one just as we are one."
    This is no trinity but a unity of will and purpose....unless all of Jesus' disciples are part of the trinity too....:shrug:


    2. Philippians 2:5-6 You must have the same attitude that Christ Jesus had. Though he was God, he did not think of equality with God as something to cling to.

    That is a mistranslation. It actually says..."Have this attitude in yourselves which was also in Christ Jesus, 6 who, as He already existed in the form of God, did not consider equality with God something to be grasped". (NASB) He would never have done that because he has no equality with the Father and would never have overstepped that boundary.

    3. John 17:21 That they all may be one; as thou, Father, art in me, and I in thee, that they also may be one in us: that the world may believe that thou hast sent me.

    I'm not sure why this is even here...? I quoted verse 21 above stating what Jesus said....
    I have given them the glory that you have given me, in order that they may be one just as we are one."
    Are his disciples part of the trinity too?


    4. John 1:18 No one has ever seen God, but the one and only Son, who is himself God and is in closest relationship with the Father, has made him known.

    This is a personal favorite of mine....because it is a blatant mistranslation. The original Greek does not say "the one and only son" it actually says "the only begotten god". Translating "theos" as "the Son" is a false translation. "Theos" is "god" in Greek. It should read (as above) which if Jesus is God, he could not have been "begotten" because he would need a "begetter" who existed before him. It also says that "No one has ever seen God"...how many people saw Jesus?

    5. Colossians 2:9-10 For in him the whole fullness of deity dwells bodily. and in Christ you have been brought to fullness. He is the head over every power and authority.

    This expression is found nowhere else in scripture and there are a variety of ways that translators have rendered it. So the question is....was the apostle Paul there saying that the “fullness” that was in Christ made Christ God himself? Not according to Colossians 3:1, where says..."If, however, you were raised up with the Christ, go on seeking the things above, where the Christ is seated at the right hand of God."

    Can God be seated at the right hand of himself? Did Jesus pray to himself...or resurrect himself from the dead?

    6. John 10:33 “We are not stoning you for any good work,” they replied, “but for blasphemy, because you, a mere man, claim to be God.”

    The setting here is important....because this is Jesus' Jewish opposers speaking, (who were seeking to pin a blasphemy charge on him) trying to imply that Jesus was guilty of a capital crime so that they could do away with him. Jesus was not claiming to be God at all. He said he was God's son....which we know he was.
    The following verses say..."Jesus answered them: “Is it not written in your Law, ‘I said: “You are gods”’? 35 If he called ‘gods’ those against whom the word of God came—and yet the scripture cannot be nullified— 36 do you say to me whom the Father sanctified and sent into the world, ‘You blaspheme,’ because I said, ‘I am God’s Son’?"

    7. John 5:18 This was why the Jews were seeking all the more to kill him, because not only was he breaking the Sabbath, but he was even calling God his own Father, making himself equal with God.

    Again, same thing....calling God his Father did not make him equal to God, because God is the heavenly Father of all of Christ's disciples.
    When Jesus taught us the Lord's prayer what were the opening words? "OUR FATHER who art in heaven".


    8. John 1:1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.

    Another mistranslation. There are two "gods" in this verse. (Greek "theos" which means "a divine mighty one") Jehovah is Almighty God and Jesus is a divine son of God.....like the title "LORD", this word applies to both The Father and his son. "Theos" describes any god-like figure...even the devil. Use of the definite article is the key to understanding. To distinguish the one God of Israel, the Greeks used the definite article "THE" so if you read this verse in Greek, you will see that one is THE God and the other is just "a god".

    9. John 1:14 And the Word became flesh and dwelt among us, and we have seen his glory, glory as of the only Son from the Father, full of grace and truth.

    This speaks of the Word becoming flesh, not God. And his glory is that of a son from a Father......so...?

    Jesus is the Logos (the Word) which means that he is the one who speaks for God. He is also the Mediator that God appointed "between God and man". If we need a Mediator between God and man, then, if Jesus is God, why do we not have a mediator between Jesus and us?

    10. 1 John 5:20 And we know that the Son of God has come and has given us understanding, so that we may know him who is true; and we are in him who is true, in his Son Jesus Christ. He is the true God and eternal life.

    If that verse was correctly translated then it contradicts Jesus' words at John 17:3...
    "And this is eternal life, that they may know You, the only true God, and Jesus Christ whom You have sent."
    Jesus calls his Father "the only true God"...so which is it? The direct statement, or a misunderstood verse.
    How does God "send" himself somewhere else?

    11. Romans 10:13 For “everyone who calls on the name of the Lord will be saved.”
    Paul was quoting Joel 2:32 which says..."
    And everyone who calls on the name of Jehovah will be saved;

    For on Mount Zion and in Jerusalem there will be those who escape, just as Jehovah has said,
    The survivors whom Jehovah calls.”

    Jesus is NOT Jehovah.....please show me where it ever says that in the Bible...?

    12. John 8:57-58 The people said, “You aren’t even fifty years old. How can you say you have seen Abraham?” Jesus answered, “I tell you the truth, before Abraham was even born, I Am!”
    Jesus was answering a question about his age....how is his answer stating that he is God?
    Does this response even make sense in English? Jesus was saying that "before Abraham was even born I existed". There is no "I AM" in this verse. There is no "I AM" in Exodus 3:14-15 either.


    13. John 8:22-24 This made the Jews ask, “Will he kill himself? Is that why he says, ‘Where I go, you cannot come’?” But he continued, “You are from below; I am from above. You are of this world; I am not of this world. 24 I told you that you would die in your sins; if you do not believe that I am he, you will indeed die in your sins.”

    Jesus was telling his audience that he was from heaven....not from this world. He existed in heaven and was sent by the Father as the one that the Jews were expecting...but they did not believe him.


    14. John 13:18-19 “I am not referring to all of you; I know those I have chosen. But this is to fulfill this passage of Scripture: ‘He who shared my bread has turned against me.’ “I am telling you now before it happens, so that when it does happen you will believe that I am who I am.

    Who was Jesus? He was the Messiah.....that is who he was.....NOT God.

    I couldn't agree more....

    15. Isaiah 44:6 Thus says the LORD, the King of Israel and his Redeemer, the LORD of hosts: “I am the first and I am the last; besides me there is no god.

    16. 1 Corinthians 8:6 Yet for us there is one God, the Father, from whom are all things and for whom we exist, and one Lord, Jesus Christ, through whom are all things and through whom we exist
    .[/QUOTE]

    I am so glad you put these last two together because the last scripture answers the question nicely.....
    It is clear that the apostles were in no doubt as to who their God was....
    "Yet for us there is one God, the Father, from whom are all things and for whom we exist, and one Lord, Jesus Christ, through whom are all things and through whom we exist".

    The Father is God.....the Lord Jesus is not.

    Sorry.....you have proven nothing.
     
    #190 Deeje, Feb 7, 2021
    Last edited: Feb 8, 2021
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  11. Dave Watchman

    Dave Watchman Active Member

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    I have Him as one of the two Kings from the east.

    When people say this:

    “Fall on us and hide us from the face of Him who sits on the throne and from the wrath of the Lamb! - Revelation 6:16

    They are going to know that Jesus is God too.

    I know it now.

    It seems basic, if not elementary, to me.

    You seem smart D, I think you'll figure it out.

    I think he did a pretty good job.

    But it's tough finding it in the Gospels.

    Because Jesus was on a TOP SECRET mission at that time.

    None of the rulers of that age understood it either, for if they had, they would not have crucified the Lord of glory.

    "Now when Jesus came into the district of Caesarea Philippi, he asked his disciples, “Who do people say that the Son of Man is?” And they said, “Some say John the Baptist, others say Elijah, and others Jeremiah or one of the prophets.” He said to them, “But who do you say that I am?” Simon Peter replied, “You are the Christ, the Son of the living God.” And Jesus answered him, “Blessed are you, Simon Bar-Jonah! For flesh and blood has not revealed this to you, but my Father who is in heaven. And I tell you, you are Peter, and on this rock I will build my church, and the gates of hell shall not prevail against it. I will give you the keys of the kingdom of heaven, and whatever you bind on earth shall be bound in heaven, and whatever you loose on earth shall be loosed in heaven.” Then he strictly charged the disciples to tell no one that he was the Christ. - Matthew 16

    Note that flesh and blood cannot reveal this thing, only the Father that is in heaven.

    If Jesus didn't want the stiff necked people of those days to know that He was the Christ, He certainly would not have wanted them to know that He was also the God of the Old Testament. But that's exactly who He was.

    And Jesus IS the "Rock."

    Look again at what Paul said, and then tie it in with Isaiah and Revelation..

    Paul told the Old Time Jews that the Rock was Christ.

    "For I do not want you to be unaware, brothers, that our fathers were all under the cloud, and all passed through the sea, and all were baptized into Moses in the cloud and in the sea, and all ate the same spiritual food, and all drank the same spiritual drink. For they drank from the spiritual Rock that followed them, and the Rock was Christ. - 1 Corinthians 10

    That means that the pre-incarnate Jesus was the burning bush which spoke to Moses, and it was Jesus who parted the Red sea and wrote the Ten Commandments into stone tablets..

    Three times in the Book of Isaiah, the God of the Old Testament says: "I am the first and I am the last;

    “This is what the Lord says—
    Israel’s King and Redeemer, the Lord Almighty:
    I am the first and I am the last;
    apart from me there is no God.


    Who then is like me? Let him proclaim it.
    Let him declare and lay out before me
    what has happened since I established my ancient people,
    and what is yet to come—
    yes, let them foretell what will come.

    Do not tremble, do not be afraid.
    Did I not proclaim this and foretell it long ago?
    You are my witnesses. Is there any God besides me?
    No, there is no other Rock; I know not one.” - Isaiah 44
    (And on this rock I will build my church, and the gates of hell shall not prevail against it)

    When John meets Jesus again in Chapter 1 of Revelation, he's presented with the same greeting. "I am the first and the last:

    "When I saw him, I fell at his feet as though dead. But he laid his right hand on me, saying, “Fear not, I am the first and the last, and the living one. I died, and behold I am alive forevermore, and I have the keys of Death and Hades. - Revelation 1

    He died.

    And behold He is alive forevermore.

    No greater love can be had than to lay down one's life for His friends.

    “This is my commandment, that you love one another as I have loved you. Greater love has no one than this, that someone lay down his life for his friends. You are my friends if you do what I command you.
    That we love one another,
    as He has loved us.
     
  12. Deeje

    Deeje Avid Bible Student
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    @Dave Watchman it s apparent that all of the scriptural evidence that has been provided thus far has fallen on deaf ears, so if the scriptures do not convince you that the trinity is blasphemous, then my meager attempts will not either.
    I shall shake the dust off my feet and move on.

    I can only wish you well and hope that God will open your heart and mind to what he has told us in his word about his relationship with his son. Time is running out and now is the time for the important decisions. We only have one shot to get it right.
     
  13. ideogenous_mover

    ideogenous_mover Well-Known Member

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    I find that to be kind of an outlandish metaphor. If a rag is filthy, that means it was being worked. A rag is a work tool. If someone has a rag, and it is clean, that means the tool was not even being worked
     
  14. Pilgrim Soldier

    Pilgrim Soldier Active Member

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    In the days when Jesus said that, rags were used to wipe one's bottom after going to the toilet and women used them for their monthly cycles so the rags mentioned were of the filthiest kind.

    Jesus used that metaphor to draw a parallel between the best works of an unbeliever and those of a believer. Unbelievers do good works out of selfish reasons, they do them to gain a reward or recognition whilst pretending to do them out of the goodness of their heart. So that makes them stink in God's sight
     
  15. ideogenous_mover

    ideogenous_mover Well-Known Member

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    I'm not sure I believe that specific motivations and behaviors are always contingent on what you believe
     
  16. Pilgrim Soldier

    Pilgrim Soldier Active Member

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    One can believe whatever one desires to, but that never changes the truth or the consequences of believing a lie
     
  17. ideogenous_mover

    ideogenous_mover Well-Known Member

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    So belief is kind of the ace in the hand then.. Well I can never really believe that, because I've always been in multicultural environments.. I have met, befriended, or worked with muslims, jews, animists, buddists, christians, atheists, and more.. I can never judge them on what they believe, character was the only thing I found meaningful
     
  18. Watchmen

    Watchmen Well-Known Member
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    I suppose you can say Judaism was true . . . to a point. When it rejected Christ it rejected the addition truth available.

    if you believe that kind of stuff.
     
  19. Pilgrim Soldier

    Pilgrim Soldier Active Member

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    I would never judge anyone, God said He is the judge and He will cast unbelievers into the lake of fire.
    The are 2 types of judging mentioned in the Bible, the first is using our judgement to judge someone's character. As in, I would not employ a person who has tattoos or piercings or a man with long hair or a homosexual, because these things tell me that he is not of good character and not to be trusted.
    The other type of judgement spoken of, is the final judgement where God casts unbelievers into the lake of fire to be tormented for ever or He receives the person into everlasting paradise.
     
  20. ideogenous_mover

    ideogenous_mover Well-Known Member

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    Hm... well in my 34 years I've done stuff like factory work and construction all my life.. So I come from a world of hard work.. I never found those things you mentioned to signal an absence of the grit you need to get high up the ladders.. I mean I don't know what you've done in your life, but it kinda sounds like we're coming from two different worlds here bud
     
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