If abortion really is a "crime", why should the woman not be punished?

[fantome profane]

(First this thread is not about "Tonald Drumpf". But the frenzy over his recent answer to this question raises what I think is an interesting inconsistency in the mainstream pro-life position.)

So if abortion is a crime, if it really is murder, the murder of an innocent helpless baby, which is how the pro-life movement wants to characterize it, then why should a woman who gets an abortion not receive a harsh punishment for it?

A woman finds out she is pregnant and decides to get an abortion. She makes plans to go to the clinic, she makes an appointment to see a doctor. Her actions are clearly premeditated. She goes to the clinic, fills out paperwork indicating her intentions, follows the doctors instructions, and she gets an abortion. And the same pro-life movement that claims this is murder claims that she should not be punished. The mere suggestion that she would receive punishment for this sends them into a fury. Why?

Isn't this incredibly condescending?

Yes, I understand that the doctor is the one that actually preforms the procedure. But he or she does so at the behest of the woman. And the pro-life movement does not even consider her an accomplice. Why is this?

Is it because they don't think that a woman is responsible for her choice? Since they don't think the woman should have the choice, perhaps they don't think that women are capable of making a choice like this. It is as if they think that women are not real moral agents, that they are not real people. The doctor is solely responsible for this act, the doctor is responsible for the woman's decision. And since the woman is not capable of making a choice the big strong men in the government must make it for her.

 

[URAVIP2ME]

First of all, even under the Constitution of the Mosaic Law, abortion was only a High Crime in God's eyes when the reason for having an abortion was for selfish reasons to just get rid of an unwanted child.

Abortion is Not a political issue but a moral issue.

 

[fantome profane]

First of all, even under the Constitution of the Mosaic Law, abortion was only a High Crime in God's eyes when the reason for having an abortion was for selfish reasons to just get rid of an unwanted child.

Abortion is Not a political issue but a moral issue.

So tell us, what should be the punishment for this "High Crime" Please be specific as possible. (and try to keep it in the temporal realm)

 

[URAVIP2ME]

So tell us, what should be the punishment for this "High Crime" Please be specific as possible. (and try to keep it in the temporal realm)

We are Not under the Constitution of the Mosaic Law which was for only one nation, the nation of ancient Israel.
Under that Law to balance the Scales of Justice it would be: life for life.
The un-born was considered as a life. To deliberately harm the unborn for selfish reasons was a capital offence: Life for Life.

 

[BSM1]

First of all, even under the Constitution of the Mosaic Law, abortion was only a High Crime in God's eyes when the reason for having an abortion was for selfish reasons to just get rid of an unwanted child.

Abortion is Not a political issue but a moral issue.

How did they perform abortions in Moses' day?

 

[URAVIP2ME]

How did they perform abortions in Moses' day?

We won't find the answer in the old Hebrew Scriptures, but the pagan nations surrounding ancient Israel had the practice of burning up their children in fire.
- 2 Chronicles 28:3; Jeremiah 32:35; Deuteronomy 18:10

 

[Revoltingest]

If this is the comment.....

Donald J. Trump said on Wednesday that women who seek abortions should be subject to “some form of punishment” if the procedure is banned in the United States, further elevating Republican concerns that his explosive remarks about women could doom the party in the fall.

.....then it would be reasonable to punish both the mother & those involved in performing the abortion.
But I oppose the premise that it be made illegal.
But if it does become so, I propose that punishment be a $5 ticket.
And it should be waived for the first 10 offenses.

That Trump later backed down from this is a sign of weakness.....or political pandering....or both.

 

[George-ananda]

(First this thread is not about "Tonald Drumpf". But the frenzy over his recent answer to this question raises what I think is an interesting inconsistency in the mainstream pro-life position.)

So if abortion is a crime, if it really is murder, the murder of an innocent helpless baby, which is how the pro-life movement wants to characterize it, then why should a woman who gets an abortion not receive a harsh punishment for it?

A woman finds out she is pregnant and decides to get an abortion. She makes plans to go to the clinic, she makes an appointment to see a doctor. Her actions are clearly premeditated. She goes to the clinic, fills out paperwork indicating her intentions, follows the doctors instructions, and she gets an abortion. And the same pro-life movement that claims this is murder claims that she should not be punished. The mere suggestion that she would receive punishment for this sends them into a fury. Why?

Isn't this incredibly condescending?

Yes, I understand that the doctor is the one that actually preforms the procedure. But he or she does so at the behest of the woman. And the pro-life movement does not even consider her an accomplice. Why is this?

Is it because they don't think that a woman is responsible for her choice? Since they don't think the woman should have the choice, perhaps they don't think that women are capable of making a choice like this. It is as if they think that women are not real moral agents, that they are not real people. The doctor is solely responsible for this act, the doctor is responsible for the woman's decision. And since the woman is not capable of making a choice the big strong men in the government must make it for her.

First of all, if abortion is illegal then women will have to go to some hidden location to have abortions done by whoever claims they can and will do it for a said price. And if they are caught then both the practitioner and women should face prison time. To me, if something is illegal it must be punished.

Are you saying the pro-life people are against punishing the women?

 

[fantome profane]

Are you saying the pro-life people are against punishing the women?

It seems like that. Ted Cruz, John Kasich, Mike Huckabee, Ben Carson, and just about every pro-life person who has been reached for comment has harshly criticized Trump for saying the woman should be punished. And Trump himself has walk backed his own comment and said the woman should not be punished. That was the impetus for this thread, but as I said this I don't want this to be about Trump. This thread is more about the criticism he received for saying women should be punished for having abortions, and the inconsistency that this exposes.


http://www.mediaite.com/online/two-...-denounce-trumps-abortion-punishment-remarks/

 

[George-ananda]

It seems like that. Ted Cruz, John Kasich, Mike Huckabee, Ben Carson, and just about pro-life person who has been reached for comment has harshly criticized Trump for saying the woman should be punished. And Trump himself has walk backed his own comment and said the woman should not be punished. That was the impetus for this thread, but as I said this I don't want this to be about Trump. This thread is more about the criticism he received for saying women should be punished for having abortions, and the inconsistency that this exposes.


http://www.mediaite.com/online/two-...-denounce-trumps-abortion-punishment-remarks/

It seems like Trump is more consistent than the other pro-lifers on this issue if you ask me.

 

[Saint Frankenstein]

I, myself, would identify as being a pro-life moderate. I recognize that abortion is a very complicated issue, full of many variables and extenuating circumstances, including socio-cultural ones. There's a certain grey area over when life actually starts (I'm an animist, myself, so I think everything is alive, personally), when sentience and sapience develop, etc. Anyway, in my opinion, I think that these are all things that need to be taken into consideration. I am not comfortable with making abortion illegal, especially across the board, as that logically will not help matters much, imo. I am more interested in compassion and being/gaining understanding. I think that, ultimately, compassion and empathy will help to solve this, and most other, issue(s).

 

[fantome profane]

It seems like Trump is more consistent than the other pro-lifers on this issue if you ask me.

How so? First he says women should be punished, then he says they should not be punished. How is this consistent?

 

[George-ananda]

How so? First he says women should be punished, then he says they should not be punished. How is this consistent?

I was just talking about the 'punishment' part not any flip-flopping.

 

[BSM1]

We won't find the answer in the old Hebrew Scriptures, but the pagan nations surrounding ancient Israel had the practice of burning up their children in fire.
- 2 Chronicles 28:3; Jeremiah 32:35; Deuteronomy 18:10

Seriously??? You think this is abortion?

 

[Sunstone]

How did they perform abortions in Moses' day?

http://womenshistory.about.com/od/abortion/a/ancientabortion.htm

In a word, dangerously.

 

[David1967]

First of all, even under the Constitution of the Mosaic Law, abortion was only a High Crime in God's eyes when the reason for having an abortion was for selfish reasons to just get rid of an unwanted child.

Abortion is Not a political issue but a moral issue.

First of all, even under the Constitution of the Mosaic Law, abortion was only a High Crime in God's eyes when the reason for having an abortion was for selfish reasons to just get rid of an unwanted child.

Abortion is Not a political issue but a moral issue.

Unfortunately it's a moral issue that has become a political issue.

 

[Skwim]

So if abortion is a crime, if it really is murder, the murder of an innocent helpless baby, which is how the pro-life movement wants to characterize it, then why should a woman who gets an abortion not receive a harsh punishment for it?

So if sex between two men is a crime, if it really is a homosexual act, an abomination, which is how the Bible describes it, then why should two men who engage in homosexual acts not receive a harsh punishment for it?

Point being, it ain't a crime, and there's no reason to suppose it is.

A woman finds out she is pregnant and decides to get an abortion. She makes plans to go to the clinic, she makes an appointment to see a doctor. Her actions are clearly premeditated. She goes to the clinic, fills out paperwork indicating her intentions, follows the doctors instructions, and she gets an abortion. And the same pro-life movement that claims this is murder claims that she should not be punished. The mere suggestion that she would receive punishment for this sends them into a fury. Why?

Isn't this incredibly condescending?

Well, it would be hypocritical if it's actually the same pro-life people, but doubt it is. There's no doubt that some pro-life people consider abortion to be a crime.

"Because we as a society have lost our sense of right and wrong when it comes to abortion, we have to remind people that abortion is indeed a crime, and it is a crime in which the victim is indeed a human being — the least of our brothers and sisters, the preborn child. It is only when personhood is restored under the law to every innocent preborn child that there will be time enough to debate criminal consequences for the criminal act of abortion."
source
​

and

Contrary to popular belief, abortion is murder. Scientific and biblical facts (Pro Life vs. Pro Choice Facts) prove this.
source
​

And I seriously suspect they would be in favor of punishing the woman. However, there are other pro-life people who do not; witness the pro-lifers who cringed at Trump's remark. So, I think you're painting with a too broad of a brush here. Pro-life thinking isn't completely unified.


.

 

[sun rise]

Personally I think that if abortion is considered murder than the laws that apply to murder should apply to abortion.

But I don't think it should be considered murder until the fetus is viable. But I don't like abortions and want society to offer alternatives and even pay for alternatives to minimize the number. And I think that the answer ultimately is not legal but moral - my ideal is for people to choose not to have them rather than using the law. Partly this is based on my mother having had one when they were illegal so I have sympathy for those who feel they have no choice and want such women to have a good choice.

 

[Augustus]

So if abortion is a crime, if it really is murder, the murder of an innocent helpless baby, which is how the pro-life movement wants to characterize it, then why should a woman who gets an abortion not receive a harsh punishment for it?

She can do in most countries where abortion is illegal.

Is it because they don't think that a woman is responsible for her choice? Since they don't think the woman should have the choice, perhaps they don't think that women are capable of making a choice like this. It is as if they think that women are not real moral agents, that they are not real people. The doctor is solely responsible for this act, the doctor is responsible for the woman's decision. And since the woman is not capable of making a choice the big strong men in the government must make it for her.

Political expediency I guess. Women vote in much higher numbers than abortion doctors do.

 

[Sunstone]

Give it time: Start punishing abortion providers today, and within a few years, it will be acceptable to punish women for having one.