If a Creator exists...

[joe1776]

Yes, exactly. It was another conditional premise. You also assume the purpose is benign. And, for example, that it has anything at all to do with us. We could easily be an annoying infestation of a small, backwater planet, and not at all the purpose of creation at all (even if creation has a purpose).

And these are just a few of the many hidden assumptions here.

I haven't constructed a logical argument here. The OP is comprised of a series of conditional premises. However, I've given a plausible purpose (moral progress) which indeed is happening. The idea that this life has no purpose at all is plausible, but obviously you can't support that conclusion.

 

[joe1776]

Why are you in a religious forum when you have absolutely no knowledge of God? It's best if you go enjoy life somewhere else that you can understand.

I don't call what you believe "knowledge." It's simply what you believe.

 

[osgart]

if justice is anything it is deserve. that would be the only condition of true love.
the heart of compassion isn't so foolish as to ignore deserve.

To punish an evil doer is as deserves.
To reward the upright is to give them their due.

what than is righteous judgment? it is the heart of moral law which is to love as deserves.

in this world the law is survival of the fittest, and most skillful. not exactly the trait of a living God to make it this way. I mean you have to kill animals to exist; that's a sick God who made it this way; creating a necessity of desperate survival.

 

[joe1776]

In this world the law is survival of the fittest, and most skillful. not exactly the trait of a living God to make it this way.

And, if the challenge to survive brings out the best in us as it did when 55 nations joined together to defeat the oppressors in WWII? What's your opinion about that?

 

[Unveiled Artist]

I have to read every person's full posts in sections. I cannot read it all at one time to reply because of medical issues. So, I did read your post. (Not saying you didn't. Just saying I did)

If a Creator exists, then that Creator loves unconditionally because the caring kind of love (not the romantic) is always unconditional. Conditional love, I will love you if you please me, is not love at all. It is arrogant manipulation (reward and punishment). It puts someone's need for love under the threat of being withheld as a punishment.

On that note, "If a creator exist and he gives love, why would it be unconditional and not conditional?"

I do not understand. Conditional love isn't manipulative. It just means love with expectations. If I love my wife, I would have some expectations on that love. For example, love is not given to you on a platter. It is an action. The woman I dated, I love her unconditionally. However, because I realized later that I needed conditional love (I needed that love back that I did not get), it became important to define our relationship.

So if a creator exist, I'd assume this creator has both unconditional and conditional love. If it is only unconditional, then punishment would not make sense. Why would you (rhetorical question) why would you punish someone you love despite their actions. Conditional love, there would be punishment because there are hopefully healthy expectations of the love that unconditional love does not have.

It is both.

I do not understand. (I do not see unconditional love as manipulative. From that point of view,) how would a creator be manipulative if it displayed conditional love?

What is the relationship between conditional (loving with expectations) and being manipulative?

Unless the creator wants to be manipulative. If so, that isn't love regardless if it's unconditional or not.

Not true. Loving parents might punish fairly as instruction.

No. Conditional love comes with expectations. When you don't meet up to the expectations, you are punished. Unconditional love does not have expectations. So the creator would respect your behavior and teach you without discipline because it is love for who that person is and their well-being. You can't do that with discipline. You can do that by literal instruction.

You do not need to discipline to display "unconditional love." That's why there is wisdom and instruction involved instead. There is guidance.

Conditional love does not have that. If it is Healthy, then having expectations (above) is fine. If a child is beaten, then it is not healthy and it teaches the child nothing. To me, any form of physical discipline does not teach anything. It's no form of love at all.

I do not see a creator doing this.

I didn't say it was required.

I did not say you said that.

If a Creator exists, and it wanted us to be certain of its existence, then it would find a simple but very effective way that would leave none of us in doubt. So, if a Creator exists, it must have a good reason for leaving us in doubt. Therefore, when Jews claim to be the tribe chosen to pass the word of the Creator's existence, we should regard the claim as false.
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Let me rephrase. Why would it need to find a simple but very effective way that would leave none of us in doubt depend on whether the creator exists or not?

I didn't make that claim.

I did not say you made the claim.

If a Creator exists, and if it wants us to have freewill along with moral guidance, then moral progress would probably be the purpose of our lives. And, if that is so, then there should be evidence, a long-term trend, showing that our species has indeed been making moral progress.There is such evidence.​

Let me rephrase.

Clarification. If the creator wanted us to have free will with moral guidance, then mora progress would be the purpose of our lives; if that is so, the moral progress is the evidence of god's free will?

 

[osgart]

And, if the challenge to survive brings out the best in us as it did when 55 nations joined together to defeat the oppressors in WWII? What's your opinion about that?

well I'm proud of my grandfather for serving that cause in ww2. it's tragic that existence needs heroic acts of justice to preserve life and civilization. hopefully one day I could return the honor to those people who sacrificed for the cause of justice.

 

[joe1776]

Conditional love isn't manipulative. It just means love with expectations.

We'll just have to disagree on this.

I do not understand. (I do not see unconditional love as manipulative. From that point of view,) how would a creator be manipulative if it displayed conditional love?

The Christian God offers His love on the condition that we accept Christian doctrine. He offers Heaven (reward) or Hell (eternal punishment) to coerce belief.Reward and punishment are the power tools of manipulation.

Let me rephrase. Why would it need to find a simple but very effective way that would leave none of us in doubt depend on whether the creator exists or not?

If it wanted us to know of its existence, I would a Creator expect it to achieve its aim efficiently.

Clarification. If the creator wanted us to have free will with moral guidance, then mora progress would be the purpose of our lives; if that is so, the moral progress is the evidence of god's free will?

Logically, I think we could presume free will if I'm right about the purpose.

 

[lewisnotmiller]

But if your son became a serial killer your would stop loving him. So, your love is conditioned on your approval of his behavior. Doesn't your son sense that even if he's not a serial killer?

If he doesn't, I'd tell him. (Or her...I have daughters)
I want it to mean something when I tell them I love them.

And no, it's not conditioned on my approval of their behaviour. My kids could do a million things I disagree with, and my love wouldn't diminish. But there is a line.

 

[lewisnotmiller]

The psychologists call it malignant narcissism. I think of it simply as extreme arrogance. We humans are all infected with it in a range from mild to severe.

We already know how to 'cure' that.

 

[Unveiled Artist]

The Christian God offers His love on the condition that we accept Christian doctrine. He offers Heaven (reward) or Hell (eternal punishment) to coerce belief.Reward and punishment are the power tools of manipulation.

I came from a perspective of a creator in general. I didn't know you meant the Christian god. The answers will vary, of course.

Biblically true. If a creator exist, I'd agree that it would display unconditional love. In my opinion, if the Christian god has conditional love, the conditions would be something healthy for humans to strive for. It wouldn't have discipline as a condition because (though we disagree), I feel discipline shouldn't be an aspect of unconditional love. Since the Christian god is said to have unconditional love and he does discipline, I'd think logically it would be in his right to have some type of punishment. That is, if going by conditional love being manipulative rather than guidance and instruction.

If (and If) this actually bothers you, I would give advice to change how you see the Christian god. Since you said unconditional love involves discipline, wouldn't it make sense that the Christian god punish those who disobey him since he is love?

I agree, reward and punishment are tools of manipulation. It is termed as an ultimatum. "I give you a choice. If you choose the wrong choice, I will punish you but I will give you the choice anyway since I love you."

That is how I see manipulation. Not love at all.

If it wanted us to know of its existence, I would a Creator expect it to achieve its aim efficiently.

It could. My comment would be as a creator (and ruler of the universe) he doesn't have the right to even if some of us wanted it so. I get your point, though.

If this really bothers you, though, I'd read the bible from a god-is-an-experience perspective. When you hear people talk about god, you hear them talk about how they feel, abstract concepts such as love, and things of that nature. They don't talk about concrete nature of god (and in my opinion because there are none).

So, when you read "god told the Isrealite to murder women and children" another way to see it is, Isrealite's murdered women and children in god's name. It was something they did because they felt god told them not the other way around. People do "what god tells them" all the time and they say god told them rather than saying they did it in the name of their god.

So, different perspectives will lessen the view of god. Especially, since he only exists in what you read (unless you feel conflicted in his actual existence; that's a different matter)

Logically, I think we could presume free will if I'm right about the purpose.

Well, in my opinion, regardless if god exists, we do have free will. We have choices. I honestly don't know how you can be "given free will" but you can be limited to your free will.

Someone can't "give you" a choice. They can certainly limit you from making choices.

 

[joe1776]

We already know how to 'cure' that.

Do we? Let me in on it. Who's doing it?

 

[lewisnotmiller]

Do we? Let me in on it. Who's doing it?

*Laughs*

Sure we do. It's all around how children are raised, the environment they grow up in, and their life experience.

Control that, the 'illness' doesn't develop. But Hitler? Lost cause. As a baby you could help. As a fully-fledged narcissistic dictator, best we just make the world a touch safer.

 

[joe1776]

*Laughs*

Sure we do. It's all around how children are raised, the environment they grow up in, and their life experience.

Control that, the 'illness' doesn't develop. But Hitler? Lost cause. As a baby you could help. As a fully-fledged narcissistic dictator, best we just make the world a touch safer.

A few of the problems: 1) The same people who pass on their arrogant genes are the same ones raising him -- and they tell him he truly is superior to ordinary human beings. 2) Even trained psychologists have trouble separating narcissism from high self-esteem; 3) Narcissism is particularly hard to cure because the narcissist doesn't want to change -- it must feel good to feel superior.

 

[lewisnotmiller]

A few of the problems: 1) The same people who pass on their arrogant genes are the same ones raising him -- and they tell him he truly is superior to ordinary human beings. 2) Even trained psychologists have trouble separating narcissism from high self-esteem; 3) Narcissism is particularly hard to cure because the narcissist doesn't want to change -- it must feel good to feel superior.

Yup.
I'm not sure how any of that impacts on my premise though.

 

[Milton Platt]

The conditional premise is a useful reasoning device that usually begins with the word IF.

If a Creator exists, then that Creator loves us because the caring kind of love is the most powerful force in the universe.

If a Creator exists, then that Creator loves unconditionally because the caring kind of love (not the romantic) is always unconditional. Conditional love, I will love you if you please me, is not love at all. It is arrogant manipulation (reward and punishment). It puts someone's need for love under the threat of being withheld as a punishment.

If a Creator exists, and we are loved unconditionally, then we are loved regardless of what we believe. It does not matter whether we are theists, atheists or agnostics.

If a Creator exists, and we are loved unconditionally, then the idea of punishment as instruction for misbehavior makes sense but the notion that Hell, an afterlife of eternal punishment for any reason is absurd and the notion of eternal punishment for non-belief in a religious doctrine is absurdly unjust.

If a Creator exists, and we are loved unconditionally, then even serial killers, with their sick minds, are loved although their terrible acts would cause the Creator profound sadness. Thus, we should see those terrible acts as symptoms of sickness and not as evil.

If a Creator exists, and it wanted us to be certain of its existence, then it would find a simple but very effective way that would leave none of us in doubt. So, if a Creator exists, it must have a good reason for leaving us in doubt. Therefore, when Jews claim to be the tribe chosen to pass the word of the Creator's existence, we should regard the claim as false.

If a Creator exists, and it wants us to have freewill along with moral guidance, it would not offer that guidance in a tribal language destined to become obsolete, commonly mistranslated, and commonly misinterpreted. That would be a dumb thing to do, especially for an all-knowing Creator.

If a Creator exists, and if it wants us to have freewill along with moral guidance, it would provide people of all nations with a simple way to discern right from wrong. The fact that we probably have such a remarkable gift is not compelling evidence that a Creator exists, but it should raise the suspicion. (My thread "Morality Made Simple" is based on the idea that conscience is a simple, cross-cultural moral guidance system)

If a Creator exists, and if it wants us to have freewill along with moral guidance, then moral progress would probably be the purpose of our lives. And, if that is so, then there should be evidence, a long-term trend, showing that our species has indeed been making moral progress.There is such evidence.

You don't believe that humanity has been making moral progress? I won't re-post a lengthy argument that I made recently, but here's one link that another poster provided.

Why the World Is Not Falling Apart

Suggestions? Criticism? Comments?

Should one not prove that the creator exists first before deciding what we think it wants and does? Unless you can definitively eliminate the "if" this is just a thought exercise.

 

[MJFlores]

It's kinda ironic. You postulated that unconditional love makes no sense, citing an evil son as the example, and listing some killers.
It's basically the same viewpoint I had.

But then you go and state we're all worthless pieces of no-gooders.
Also an unconditional statement.

So a woman who dedicated her life to helping disabled kids is now in the same bucket as Ted Bundy and Jeffery Darma...

Nope. The same logic applies. We are NOT all worthless.

Sir lewisnotmiller,

There is no such thing as unconditional love - this is just made up by some ideal romanticist. I'm sure in your country, you have divorce - so marriage is likewise conditional.

In the country where I am at, we have no divorce. I think this is the only country in the planet where there is no divorce. Now that is unconditional - whether our spouses goes bananas, we are stuck with them.

The only unconditional love, God gives isn't to mankind per se but to his Son - Jesus Christ and those whom he has chosen.

John 17:24
“Father, I want those you have given me to be with me where I am, and to see my glory, the glory you have given me because you loved me before the creation of the world.

Ephesians 1:3-5
Praise be to the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who has blessed us in the heavenly realms with every spiritual blessing in Christ. For he chose us in him before the creation of the world to be holy and blameless in his sight. In love he predestined us for adoption to sonship through Jesus Christ, in accordance with his pleasure and will

Now how about : "So a woman who dedicated her life to helping disabled kids is now in the same bucket as Ted Bundy and Jeffrey Lionel Dahmer"? Let us check what the bible says:

1 Corinthians 13

If I speak in the tongues of men or of angels, but do not have love, I am only a resounding gong or a clanging cymbal.

If I have the gift of prophecy and can fathom all mysteries and all knowledge, and if I have a faith that can move mountains, but do not have love, I am nothing.

If I give all I possess to the poor and give over my body to hardship that I may boast, but do not have love, I gain nothing.

Love is patient, love is kind. It does not envy, it does not boast, it is not proud. It does not dishonor others, it is not self-seeking, it is not easily angered, it keeps no record of wrongs. Love does not delight in evil but rejoices with the truth. It always protects, always trusts, always hopes, always perseveres.

Love never fails. But where there are prophecies, they will cease; where there are tongues, they will be stilled; where there is knowledge, it will pass away. For we know in part and we prophesy in part, but when completeness comes, what is in part disappears. When I was a child, I talked like a child, I thought like a child, I reasoned like a child. When I became a man, I put the ways of childhood behind me. For now we see only a reflection as in a mirror; then we shall see face to face. Now I know in part; then I shall know fully, even as I am fully known.

And now these three remain: faith, hope and love. But the greatest of these is love.

What is this LOVE that the bible speaks?

Ephesians 5:25
Husbands, love your wives, just as Christ loved the church and gave himself up for her.

John 15:13-14

Greater love has no one than this: to lay down one’s life for one’s friends. You are my friends if you do what I command.

See that there is a condition.

 

[MJFlores]

If one loves unconditionally, one sees sickness not evil. Do we punish sick people or quarantine them?

There is no such thing like UNCONDITIONAL LOVE. It only exist in songs, like that of Katy Perry.

Even the Lord Jesus Christ have declared his friendship but with a condition and this is in the Bible:

John 15:13-14New International Version (NIV)

Greater love has no one than this: to lay down one’s life for one’s friends. You are my friends if you do what I command.

Now to address your question: Do we punish sick people or quarantine them? I'm sure you know what governments did during the ebola virus outbreaks about 2 years ago.

The end of things have long been written even in the Bible. Even the scientists are speculating how the world will end.

This is written by apostle Peter in:

2 Peter 3:10
But the day of the Lord will come like a thief. The heavens will disappear with a roar; the elements will be destroyed by fire, and the earth and everything done in it will be laid bare.

2 Peter 3:12
as you look forward to the day of God and speed its coming. That day will bring about the destruction of the heavens by fire, and the elements will melt in the heat.

Therefore we should really examine and study the conditions set by the Lord Jesus Christ for us to be friends with him and be saved when the day of the Lord comes.

 

[lewisnotmiller]

Sir lewisnotmiller,

There is no such thing as unconditional love - this is just made up by some ideal romanticist. I'm sure in your country, you have divorce - so marriage is likewise conditional.

Love is conditional. And people's 'worth' is subjective. That is my point.

 

[PureX]

I can't think of any way to help you with that.

Then I guess it wasn't as easy a concept as you thought it was.

 

[joe1776]

Should one not prove that the creator exists first before deciding what we think it wants and does? Unless you can definitively eliminate the "if" this is just a thought exercise.

Since proof of existence is impossible, the thought exercise is useful and the best we can do.