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Idolising forms of masculinity

SomeRandom

Still learning to be wise
Staff member
Premium Member
As a young girl growing up in the 90s, I was always inundated with messages of fighting the patriarchy. But in contrast my life has been filled with media basically rewarding me with identifying with male leads. A good example, for me anyway, is Batman. From a young age I idolised him, his stoic nature and his brute strength as well as his analytical skill. His ability to remain cold and stern but with a moral compass.
But this has always been coded as masculine traits, right?
In pop culture we are conditioned in a way to praise and identify with aspects of masculinity, even strive for it. Do we have the same for feminine role models in the same vein?
 

Lyndon

"Peace is the answer" quote: GOD, 2014
Premium Member
you mean you can't say anything you wouldn't get reported for??
 

Polymath257

Think & Care
Staff member
Premium Member
I find the whole breakdown of masculine/feminine to be a pretty useless distinction.

A person (whether male or female) should be able to be stoic when necessary, strong when necessary, emotional when necessary, caring when necessary, independent when necessary, dependent when necessary, etc.

In other words, attributing these qualities to either gender seems rather harmful to people of either gender. It is much better to be a well-rounded human being that is capable of the range of human behaviors.
 

February-Saturday

Devil Worshiper
=I personally don't view analytical skill and stoicism as exclusively masculine virtues=

Womanly virtues are often associated with intuitive wisdom (which in my opinion can't be cleanly divorced from analysis) and effortless beauty. Women weren't allowed to write or play music for awhile because these were seen as "too passionate for a lady." These are, arguably, the same underlying virtues but expressed in different coats.

That said, I agree that the nature of Batman's stoicism and analytical ability are heavily masculine. His stoicism comes from brooding, wanting to avoid vulnerability, and his analysis tends to be aggressive and destructive.

I'd contrast this with a character like Supergirl. She's shown to not just rail against crime, but to take the time out of her day to go save kittens from trees, save children from burning buildings, talk people down with compassion, and so on. The thoughtfulness of Supergirl tends to be more feminine than the analysis of Batman.

=Are there examples of uniquely feminine expressions of these traits in pop culture?=

I think the superhero genre specifically, and its general appeal to action and shows of physical prowess, is probably the wrong place to be looking for feminine role models. It's easier to find in something like the Disney princesses, even though I'm aware of the common feminist critiques of the Disney princesses.

However, I don't personally feel like they tend to be any more toxic than most male role models, even if that toxicity shows itself in different ways. While Batman runs from his feelings and treats conflict too aggressively, for instance, Snow White doesn't really choose to strive towards any goals and treats conflict too passively.

It's worth noting that some feminine values do fall into pop culture through superhero films, though. The first Sam Raimi Spider-Man movie has themes of family and hospitality and, like Supergirl, Spider-Man is shown being more thoughtful with his powers by doing things like saving kittens from trees in a way that's portrayed as unironically heroic.
 

PureX

Veteran Member
Also, I think it's somewhat unwise to allow pop culture to determine our values, regardless of gender. Mostly because we need to establish those values for ourselves, so that we can know how to positively and effectively deal with "pop culture" while we're in it.
 

SomeRandom

Still learning to be wise
Staff member
Premium Member
Also, I think it's somewhat unwise to allow pop culture to determine our values, regardless of gender. Mostly because we need to establish those values for ourselves, so that we can know how to positively and effectively deal with "pop culture" while we're in it.
I can agree with that. But I guess having grown up with the internet, I feel like I’m constantly bombarded with it. Probably my fault, but from a young age I was literally taught to plug in and gain information or watch shows through online means. It’s probably even more prominent with younger generations as I can just about vaguely remember a time before the internet.
 

SomeRandom

Still learning to be wise
Staff member
Premium Member
=I personally don't view analytical skill and stoicism as exclusively masculine virtues=

Womanly virtues are often associated with intuitive wisdom (which in my opinion can't be cleanly divorced from analysis) and effortless beauty. Women weren't allowed to write or play music for awhile because these were seen as "too passionate for a lady." These are, arguably, the same underlying virtues but expressed in different coats.

That said, I agree that the nature of Batman's stoicism and analytical ability are heavily masculine. His stoicism comes from brooding, wanting to avoid vulnerability, and his analysis tends to be aggressive and destructive.

I'd contrast this with a character like Supergirl. She's shown to not just rail against crime, but to take the time out of her day to go save kittens from trees, save children from burning buildings, talk people down with compassion, and so on. The thoughtfulness of Supergirl tends to be more feminine than the analysis of Batman.

=Are there examples of uniquely feminine expressions of these traits in pop culture?=

I think the superhero genre specifically, and its general appeal to action and shows of physical prowess, is probably the wrong place to be looking for feminine role models. It's easier to find in something like the Disney princesses, even though I'm aware of the common feminist critiques of the Disney princesses.

However, I don't personally feel like they tend to be any more toxic than most male role models, even if that toxicity shows itself in different ways. While Batman runs from his feelings and treats conflict too aggressively, for instance, Snow White doesn't really choose to strive towards any goals and treats conflict too passively.

It's worth noting that some feminine values do fall into pop culture through superhero films, though. The first Sam Raimi Spider-Man movie has themes of family and hospitality and, like Supergirl, Spider-Man is shown being more thoughtful with his powers by doing things like saving kittens from trees in a way that's portrayed as unironically heroic.
Disney has gotten a lot better over the decades. I could forgive the older princesses their perceived flaws because they’re usually from an era where that was just the cultural attitudes of the time. Sometimes they can over correct, like in my opinion, the Live action Beauty and the Beast was too scared to portray Belle as flawed, so it made it a bit boring for me. But it has gotten better with celebrating different cultures, tackling issues like grief and I think overall portrays very healthy expressions of masculinity and femininity (for the most past.)
Incidentally I was rewatching Xena last week, for the nostalgia, and I’d kind of forgotten just how the show treated femininity and masculinity. Xena is rarely treated differently for being a woman and when she is, it’s usually by an antagonist or someone she brutalised in her past. Indeed the male warriors seem in awe of her power and brute strength. But she’s also not just brute strength, she’s compassionate and often nurturing, though sometimes a bit gruff about it. She does brood unhealthily but unlike Batman when she allows herself to be emotionally vulnerable it allows her to slowly forgive herself and earn her long sought after redemption.
I mean it’s not perfect but it seemed rather critical of power structures and what a woman’s role even was. Though I suppose it did mock Joxer for being “unmanly” sometimes.
It also seems rather a mish mash of cultural coding. Set against a backdrop that is clearly supposed to be Greco-Roman, utilising the gods but also references British things like having Kings and queens and hierarchal structure like that of medieval era Britain.
 
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PureX

Veteran Member
I can agree with that. But I guess having grown up with the internet, I feel like I’m constantly bombarded with it. Probably my fault, but from a young age I was literally taught to plug in and gain information or watch shows through online means. It’s probably even more prominent with younger generations as I can just about vaguely remember a time before the internet.
The key to a happy life is learning discernment. That has always been true, and is still true, today. "Content" is just content. You have to learn how to recognize the agenda that produced it, and decide how you respond to it. Because if you do not, you will be doomed to be coerced and manipulated all your life, by others, who do not have your best interests in mind.
 

SomeRandom

Still learning to be wise
Staff member
Premium Member
The key to a happy life is learning discernment. That has always been true, and is still true, today. "Content" is just content. You have to learn how to recognize the agenda that produced it, and decide how you respond to it. Because if you do not, you will be doomed to be coerced and manipulated all your life, by others, who do not have your best interests in mind.
I can agree with that. But is it a reality for people in general?
 

PureX

Veteran Member
I can agree with that. But is it a reality for people in general?
It's a skill like any other. We should be teaching it in our schools, but it seems few of us really want our kids asking those kinds of questions. We'd prefer them stupid and obedient so they'll be less of a bother.
 

SomeRandom

Still learning to be wise
Staff member
Premium Member
It's a skill like any other. We should be teaching it in our schools, but it seems few of us really want our kids asking those kinds of questions. We'd prefer them stupid and obedient so they'll be less of a bother.
Is reform possible then?
 

PureX

Veteran Member
Is reform possible then?
Anything is possible once we decide we want it.

If I had a kid I would not be much concerned about teaching him/her about religion, or spirituality, or even morality so much as teaching them how to recognize propaganda and it's intent to deceive and manipulate us by using our own ignorance, ego and bias against us.
 
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