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Idolatry ("Shirk") vs excessive emphasis on Monotheism: the eye of the beholder

Muslim-UK

Well-Known Member
Premium Member
Nope. I understand enough of that Christian beliefs to be capable of not fully misrepresenting it.

I am not however limited to conceptions of God that suffer from the limitations that you seem to demand.

Nor do I believe in the existence of any deities, but that is neither here nor there.




In your head, that is probably true.

Does not have true to be in anyone else's.




There is no reason to presuppose the existence of any variety of god, and the rather contradictory God of the Qur'an is anything but an exception.

And again, you are attempting to impose very arbitrary limitations to a concept whose very premise is that of transcendence... that will not lead you into very functional understandings of religious practice, I fear.

Ok you claimed the Muslims did not understand other faiths, calling polytheism, trinitarianism and henotheism "idolatry"
I showed you had no clue what you were talking about and rather than prove the Trinity was not idolatry, you've resorted to your default position of talking nonsense. :facepalm: Good night.
 

LuisDantas

Aura of atheification
Premium Member
Ok you claimed the Muslims did not understand other faiths,

Yes, it seems apparent that Islaam somehow strongly inhibits the ability to understand matters of religion.

It is quite the remarkable fact, both by its very existence and due to its intensity and frequency.


calling polytheism, trinitarianism and henotheism "idolatry"

Yes, that is one of the most clear piece of evidence.


I showed you had no clue what you were talking about

No, you did not.


and rather than prove the Trinity was not idolatry, you've resorted to your default position of talking nonsense. :facepalm: Good night.

God-belief is idolatry, if we are talking about our sincere beliefs.

If we are taking the beliefs on their own merits, you are essentially admitting your lack of ability to do the basics and blaming me for that.

Best of luck.
 

LukeS

Active Member
Apparenlty monotheism is innate in ones "fitra", which is ok if we have an innate God "sense" then its probably not too complex, even if its just down to a department of the brain.

Yet I think that the finer points of Islamic monotheism like authentic form of worship is viewed a corollary of monotheism, and inauthentic worship is seen as idolatry and serving "taghut", have to be learned culturally. Indeed the prophets teach us, so therefore its not all programmed at birth.
Taghut - Wikipedia
 

Muslim-UK

Well-Known Member
Premium Member
Yet I think that the finer points of Islamic monotheism like authentic form of worship is viewed a corollary of monotheism, and inauthentic worship is seen as idolatry and serving "taghut", have to be learned culturally. Indeed the prophets teach us, so therefore its not all programmed at birth.
Taghut - Wikipedia

Belief in God is part of human nature - Oxford study
Humans are naturally predisposed to believe in gods and life after death, according to a major three-year international study.

Led by two academics at Oxford University, the £1.9 million study found that human thought processes were “rooted” to religious concepts.

But people living in cities in highly developed countries were less likely to hold religious beliefs than those living a more rural way of life, the researchers found. The project involved 57 academics in 20 countries around the world, and spanned disciplines including anthropology, psychology, and philosophy.

Children were asked whether their mother would know the contents of a closed box. Three-year-olds believed that their mother and God would always know the contents, but by the age of four, children start to understand that their mothers were not omniscient.

Belief in God is part of human nature - Oxford study

Prophets show us how to worship God, nothing to do with interfering with the innate Fitra we are all born with.
 

LuisDantas

Aura of atheification
Premium Member
Apparently monotheism is innate in ones "fitra",

According to Islaamic doctrine as I have learned of it, yes.

Fitra - Wikipedia

which is ok if we have an innate God "sense" then its probably not too complex, even if its just down to a department of the brain.

There seems to be a neurological component to god-belief, indeed. It is however definitely not universal. It may be about as common as right-handedness, or it may be very rare. It is hard to tell, given how masked it is by the widespred proselitism of Christianity and Islaam.


Yet I think that the finer points of Islamic monotheism like authentic form of worship is viewed a corollary of monotheism, and inauthentic worship is seen as idolatry and serving "taghut", have to be learned culturally.

I agree. It is plain to see that those beliefs are not universal, or even very common, outside Islaamic communities.

Indeed the prophets teach us, so therefore its not all programmed at birth.

Quite right!
 

Ponder This

Well-Known Member
Very different indeed, to the point that typical Muslim expositions on the matter are rather confusing.

Idolatry involves actually perceiving something as divine or particularly connected to the divine when it is not entitled to such a perception. Of course, that leaves hanging the matter of who has the authority to decree something as "properly" divine. For most people beyond Muslims and (some) Christians that is basically a free choice.

Polytheism is something else entirely: the belief in several different deities that are not always avatars of each other.

Idolatry implies a mistaken or conscious choice to raise something non-divine to divine status. Polytheism is quite unrelated to it.

As is Paganism, which is one of the first few beliefs and actually a much healthier faith than one would assume from reading the Qur'an.

But in that case, isn't idolatry always relative to religious perspective?

Who says, "I am engaged in idolatry"?
Isn't that like saying, "I am lying".
Like saying, "I have raised this thing to godly status despite it not being godly in status. I am worshipping it as if it were a god, even though I know it is not a god."
In Islam, there is The God, and then there is everything else. That doesn't mean people can't be close to The God (like the Prophet is close, for example), but they can never be The God.
In polytheism, there are many gods, and all of them are worthy of worship in their eyes. So they wouldn't say, "I am engaged in idolatry." It wouldn't make sense to them because they haven't made the distinction.

I think the question of "idolatry" is a call to question what you have truly devoted yourself to and ask if it is an invention or a created thing.

Atheism, of course, is unrelated and even opposed to both polytheism and idolatry, yet apparently it also falls under "Shirk".

It seems that most Muslims are literally unaware of those concepts and their own nuances, shoving it all under "Shirk" and sometimes even presuming some degree of desire to leave them behind in favor of Quranic monotheism.

The concept of shirk is the avoidance of responsibility. In Islam, Muslims have a responsibility to The God. Disbelieving in The God is one way to fail to fulfill that responsibility. This seems apparent. What nuance is being overlooked here?

If nothing else, that indicates a huge degree of difficulty in understanding religion.

I suppose this often happens whenever someone from one religion projects their meanings and values onto another religion and treat them as if they were all the same...

They do not, unless we want people to actually attain mutual understanding and therefore have a fighting chance of mutual respect.

Which I think is a worthy and necessary goal, but I guess many will disagree.

I don't see the elimination of contextual definition as a worthy and necessary goal. Why doesn't it suffice to note the differences?

I think you are grossly understimating the true reach of that divergence of meanings. It makes understanding and respect of Muslims by non-Muslims much more difficult than it could otherwise be, and all but forbids Muslims from understanding religion in general.

Okay.
But if you merge meanings and eliminate contextual relevance, people will just invent new words to describe what they meant before meanings were merged and all of the obstacles you think you have removed will remain.

If Muslims stopped using the word "idolatry" to refer to what other religions are doing, they would use or invent a new word (I'll call it "iconlatry") to describe exactly what they meant when they said "idolatry" before. And vice versa for polytheists, pagans, non-muslims, et al. At which point, it's possible that the word "idolatry" loses all meaning and becomes an obstacle to understanding in and of itself.
 

LuisDantas

Aura of atheification
Premium Member
Prophets show us how to worship God, nothing to do with interfering with the innate Fitra we are all born with.
That is one of the most self-evident mistakes of Muslim doctrine, though.

It is rather ironic that the Qur'an itself ends up essentially telling us atheists that it is untruthful.

We have the authority to call Islaam wrong... because the Qur'an entitles us to!
 

LuisDantas

Aura of atheification
Premium Member
@Ponder This

It is not good enough for a doctrine to be self-consistent, if it purports to be relevant to the real world (as Islaam attempts to when it claims to be a religion, and as it aggravates when it makes universal claims that transcend the scope of its own believers).
 

Muslim-UK

Well-Known Member
Premium Member
That is one of the most self-evident mistakes of Muslim doctrine, though.

It is rather ironic that the Qur'an itself ends up essentially telling us atheists that it is untruthful.

We have the authority to call Islaam wrong... because the Qur'an entitles us to!

Yes we have all been blessed with free will.
 

LuisDantas

Aura of atheification
Premium Member
Well, I just don't use the concept. It is entirely fictional to the best of my understanding.
 

Muslim-UK

Well-Known Member
Premium Member
Well, I just don't use the concept. It is entirely fictional to the best of my understanding.
Talking of fictional, are you going to define God to prove Muslims are wrong when we label various faiths as Idolatry?

Excuse me, but it seems to me that the very act of calling polytheism, trinitarianism and henotheism "idolatry" is plenty example enough.
Or did you start this thread without fully understanding what it is you had issue with?
 

LuisDantas

Aura of atheification
Premium Member
Talking of fictional, are you going to define God to prove Muslims are wrong when we label various faiths as Idolatry?

What? No, of course not.

The duty of supporting their claims falls to Muslims, not to their questioners.


Or did you start this thread without fully understanding what it is you had issue with?
Actually, I have seen my notions confirmed to wild, even unsuspected levels.
 

Ponder This

Well-Known Member
@Ponder This

It is not good enough for a doctrine to be self-consistent, if it purports to be relevant to the real world (as Islaam attempts to when it claims to be a religion, and as it aggravates when it makes universal claims that transcend the scope of its own believers).

If I understand correctly, you are saying that the meaning of terms within a particular religion (such as Islam) are obstacles for it's adherents for the purposes of understanding other religions and you regard it as a worthy and necessary goal to arrive at terms with universal, non-contextual meanings in order to achieve mutual understanding and respect.

I don't disagree that obstacles to understanding may exist, but I disagree with the necessity of your proposed solution. I am saying that it suffices to acknowledge the contextual elements in the use of terms.

Moreover, I think that mutual understanding would be insufficient to mutual respect as the fundamental meanings within a particular religion would remain unchanged regardless of method (unless you are proposing to alter religions by changing their use of terms as opposed to actually understand them).
 

LuisDantas

Aura of atheification
Premium Member
If I understand correctly, you are saying that the meaning of terms within a particular religion (such as Islam)

Islaam, far from being a religion, is a doctrine that goes out of its way to be an obstacle for religious thought.


are obstacles for it's adherents for the purposes of understanding other religions and you regard it as a worthy and necessary goal to arrive at terms with universal, non-contextual meanings in order to achieve mutual understanding and respect.

That is part of it. But the most remarkable issue is that Islaam apparently expects non-Muslims to presume it somehow valid to begin with, despite an active refusal to acknowledge basic traits of reality in general and of religion specifically.

That... is just not healthy.

I don't disagree that obstacles to understanding may exist, but I disagree with the necessity of your proposed solution. I am saying that it suffices to acknowledge the contextual elements in the use of terms.

Oh, that is clearly nowhere near enough!

Moreover, I think that mutual understanding would be insufficient to mutual respect as the fundamental meanings within a particular religion would remain unchanged regardless of method (unless you are proposing to alter religions by changing their use of terms as opposed to actually understand them).

Perhaps, although I somewhat doubt it.

However, lack of a modicum of mutual understanding makes true respect impossible.
 

Ponder This

Well-Known Member
That is part of it. But the most remarkable issue is that Islaam apparently expects non-Muslims to presume it somehow valid to begin with, despite an active refusal to acknowledge basic traits of reality in general and of religion specifically.

Hmm. So how did the first muslims ever convert to Islam from being non-muslims? Perhaps this issue is not the 'obstacle' you think it is? Is this your question: What is the missing piece of the puzzle (rationally speaking)?

However, lack of a modicum of mutual understanding makes true respect impossible.

Hmm. So I can't respect you if I don't understand you? That's a problem. Or maybe it isn't. What is "true respect"?

Michael Jackson "Give Into Me" Lyrics Video "Don't try to understand me."
 

LuisDantas

Aura of atheification
Premium Member
Hmm. So how did the first muslims ever convert to Islam from being non-muslims?

Those in Makkah, or those in Yatreb? It is a relevant distinction, you know.

To the best of my understanding, the Makkah Muslims were, not to make too fine a point of it, a few oddballs. It took years for Muhammad to raise a very few dozen Muslims. I guess those were mainly people particularly predisposed to belief in messianic promises. To this day those are not that difficult to find.

In Yatreb, though, if the numbers and the style of the Qur'anic Surahs of the time are any indication, he essentially became a proto-fascist leader.

Perhaps this issue is not the 'obstacle' you think it is? Is this your question: What is the missing piece of the puzzle (rationally speaking)?

I think you misunderstood me. It is easy to convince people. it is considerably less easy to build a respectable doctrine.

Hmm. So I can't respect you if I don't understand you?

Precisely.

That's a problem. Or maybe it isn't. What is "true respect"?

The kind that is worth something.

Nah, I don't buy that.
 

arthra

Baha'i
Earlier today I was reading some material on the history of iconoclasm in the Byzantine Empire and Western Europe. It's worth the read. Check the article from wikipedia:

Iconoclasm - Wikipedia

:cool:

It might be important to recall that this isn't a debate forum:
Interfaith Discussion
A space for members to discuss (not debate) various religious topics
 

whirlingmerc

Well-Known Member
Idolatry is very broad and idols of the heart are more common than idols of wood and sone

see the song 'Clear the Stage' by Jimmy Needham
clear the stage -->
 
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