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Idolatry ("Shirk") vs excessive emphasis on Monotheism: the eye of the beholder

LuisDantas

Aura of atheification
Premium Member
It seems that you just inherently have an issue with Islamic theology.

There more I learn of it, the more likely I am to conclude that.

The challenge of understanding Muslim theology is fascinating, in a quasi-nihilistic way.


I am well aware that you are strict monotheists.

Those who call upon favours from their friends without believing God is the one who sends help commit minor shirk (taking partners besides God);

Wait. God is offended by people who are not dead-set on presuming his existence? Really?

this is forgivable as it can sometimes happen unintentionally.

What nerve to presume to have the authority to "forgive" people for having a life and acting in sane ways...


The bank manager agrees to your car loan, and you're over the moon about it, without stopping to think it was God who allowed it.

Quite so.


More serious shirk is calling upon Saints, Prophets, Jinn and other gods for help. This is what will lead people to serious trouble when they return to their Lord. Asking a Monk or Holy man to pray on your behalf is also shirk because God is so close, always ready to hear you, that you should pray to Him directly, not think others are closer to him than you.

If you say so.


Ultimately we have to rely on God, and remove any forms of shirk.

I don't know who you mean by "we", but I hope no one ever mistakes me for a member of that group.
 

Muslim-UK

Well-Known Member
Premium Member
No conscious or intelligent being. To do so, in my case, would be fraudulent.
Ok thanks for explaining, 'Buddhist with an emphasis on personal understanding.' <<< I had a look at your Dharmic glossary.

You write;

RF's Dharmic Glossary

I am playing a bit with the HTML and CSS. The latest version of the Sikh glossary is a bit more esthetical and includes a flag. I hope it looks good.

I'm wondering if I should perhaps keep the Sikh glossary strictly HTML from now on and present the beliefs in the order that Wikipedia uses:

Then you list:

1a. Simran (spiritual contemplation)
1b. Sewa (selfless service)
2. Three Pillars
2a. Naam Japo (contemplating God's names) Meditating on God's naam to control your 5 evils to eliminate suffering and live a happy life.
2b. Kirat Karo (work diligently) Earning/making a living honestly, without exploitation or fraud
2c. Vand Chhako Sharing with others, helping those with less or those who are in need
3. Five Thieves
3a. Kaam (lust)
3b. Krodh (anger)
3c. Lobh (greed)
3d. Moh (attachment, e.g. to material things or people)
3e. Hankaar (ego, pride)
4. Five Virtues
4a. Satya (truth)
4b. Santosh (contentment)
4c. Daya (compassion)
4d. Namrata (humility)
4e. Pyaar (love)

Are these all things that you follow in your Spiritual beliefs?
 

LuisDantas

Aura of atheification
Premium Member
Oh, no. I don't think anyone uses all Dharmic concepts! I certainly don't.

Dharmic religion is very different from Abrahamic.

As a starting point to understand the differences, it is probably not too wrong to think of Dharmic as having people of often very contrasting practices that nonetheless attempt to attain a measure of common language. Not beliefs necessarily, but mainly language.
 

Muslim-UK

Well-Known Member
Premium Member
Ok, it sounds like people take the parts they identify with, fair enough. What happens after death in your personal understanding?
 

LuisDantas

Aura of atheification
Premium Member
Ok, it sounds like people take the parts they identify with, fair enough. What happens after death in your personal understanding?
I cease to exist, while other people go on living.

In that sense, and that alone, I believe in life after death.

A considerable part of my practice (which happens to be strongly associated with Buddhism, but might as well not be) involves awareness of my role in the vital flow and taking the vow of caring for it to the best of my abilities.

In case you are wondering:

- No, there is no role for any deity in my practice.

- And no, I don't even find the question of whether there is a Creator God worth the effort spent in voicing it. When I do go through the trouble of using that concept, it is for the benefit of my fellow humans. Not for mine, and certainly not for that of any deity, real or imagined.
 
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Ponder This

Well-Known Member
I don't understand the question.
It seems convoluted and not particularly focused.
If there is some subtlety you are trying to unravel, then I think you need to try again to clarify it.

In Islam there is The God and then there is everything else that you might conceivably worship, but none of those things are The God. If you worship other things besides The God, then it is idolatry. How are these meanings any different outside of Islam?

If other religions allow for the worship of things outside of The One God, then from the perspective of Islam, it is not Islam. Is this what you mean? That other religions say it's okay to attach partners to God or worship Avatars and created forms? Therefore, the definition of idolatry must be different in religions other than Islam?

I don't think the definitions of words need to be reconciled. I think it's enough to consider the context of the words. I think for the purposes of interfaith dialog it's enough to clarify what words mean in particular religions. There is no need for syncretism. If religions disagree, then they disagree.
 

LuisDantas

Aura of atheification
Premium Member
I don't understand the question.
It seems convoluted and not particularly focused.
If there is some subtlety you are trying to unravel, then I think you need to try again to clarify it.

Subtlety? Alas, quite on the contrary. I am attempting to understand how come Islaamic doctrine has such a lack of nuance in such basic matters, despite claiming to be religious in nature.


In Islam there is The God and then there is everything else that you might conceivably worship, but none of those things are The God. If you worship other things besides The God, then it is idolatry. How are these meanings any different outside of Islam?

Very different indeed, to the point that typical Muslim expositions on the matter are rather confusing.

Idolatry involves actually perceiving something as divine or particularly connected to the divine when it is not entitled to such a perception. Of course, that leaves hanging the matter of who has the authority to decree something as "properly" divine. For most people beyond Muslims and (some) Christians that is basically a free choice.

Polytheism is something else entirely: the belief in several different deities that are not always avatars of each other.

Idolatry implies a mistaken or conscious choice to raise something non-divine to divine status. Polytheism is quite unrelated to it.

As is Paganism, which is one of the first few beliefs and actually a much healthier faith than one would assume from reading the Qur'an.

Atheism, of course, is unrelated and even opposed to both polytheism and idolatry, yet apparently it also falls under "Shirk".

It seems that most Muslims are literally unaware of those concepts and their own nuances, shoving it all under "Shirk" and sometimes even presuming some degree of desire to leave them behind in favor of Quranic monotheism.

If nothing else, that indicates a huge degree of difficulty in understanding religion.


If other religions allow for the worship of things outside of The One God, then from the perspective of Islam, it is not Islam. Is this what you mean?

Fair enough, and certainly true. But no, that is not what I mean.


That other religions say it's okay to attach partners to God or worship Avatars and created forms? Therefore, the definition of idolatry must be different in religions other than Islam?

I would not put it into those words, but that is in the general direction of the subject matter, yes.


I don't think the definitions of words need to be reconciled.

They do not, unless we want people to actually attain mutual understanding and therefore have a fighting chance of mutual respect.

Which I think is a worthy and necessary goal, but I guess many will disagree.

I think it's enough to consider the context of the words. I think for the purposes of interfaith dialog it's enough to clarify what words mean in particular religions. There is no need for syncretism. If religions disagree, then they disagree.

I think you are grossly understimating the true reach of that divergence of meanings. It makes understanding and respect of Muslims by non-Muslims much more difficult than it could otherwise be, and all but forbids Muslims from understanding religion in general.
 

Muslim-UK

Well-Known Member
Premium Member
I think you are grossly understimating the true reach of that divergence of meanings. It makes understanding and respect of Muslims by non-Muslims much more difficult than it could otherwise be, and all but forbids Muslims from understanding religion in general.
The majority of non Muslims understand perfectly, Muslims worship and rely on GOD alone. You'll have to give an example how Muslims misunderstand other religions in general.
 

LuisDantas

Aura of atheification
Premium Member
The majority of non Muslims understand perfectly,

No, we generally do not. We tend to assume that Islaam is similar to Christianity in most respects, and that is untrue in significant, yet often unnoticed ways.


Muslims worship and rely on GOD alone. You'll have to give an example how Muslims misunderstand other religions in general.

Excuse me, but it seems to me that the very act of calling polytheism, trinitarianism and henotheism "idolatry" is plenty example enough.
 

Muslim-UK

Well-Known Member
Premium Member
Excuse me, but it seems to me that the very act of calling polytheism, trinitarianism and henotheism "idolatry" is plenty example enough.

Trinitarianism - 3 separate distinct persons who together form 1 God, The Father is not the son, the Son is not the holy Spirit, and the Holy Spirit is not the Son or Father. Idolatry box = ticked
Polytheism - the belief in or worship of more than one god. = Idolatry confirmed
Henotheism - adherence to one particular god out of several, especially by a family, tribe, or other group. = Idolatry

Who is GOD? HE is unlike anything we can imagine, HE is One, HE alone is Omniscient, Omnipresent and Omnipotent, the following are His personal names:

timthumb.php


Explain how my understanding of idolatry is wrong.
 

LuisDantas

Aura of atheification
Premium Member
Trinitarianism - 3 separate distinct persons who together form 1 God, The Father is not the son, the Son is not the holy Spirit, and the Holy Spirit is not the Son or Father. Idolatry box = ticked

You would have to, you know, prove that the Trinity is not true before you could do that.

Polytheism - the belief in or worship of more than one god. = Idolatry confirmed

How so? Polytheism is not even very much connected to idolatry.

Henotheism - adherence to one particular god out of several, especially by a family, tribe, or other group. = Idolatry

Uh, no. The previous two statements were quite wrong, but this one is not even aware of the concept of henotheism.


Is it so difficult to understand that people have various conceptions of the sacred? Not all of them are even theistic.
 

Muslim-UK

Well-Known Member
Premium Member
You would have to, you know, prove that the Trinity is not true before you could do that.

How so? Polytheism is not even very much connected to idolatry.

Uh, no. The previous two statements were quite wrong, but this one is not even aware of the concept of henotheism.

I explained who GOD was, and gave his attributes.

Does the Trinity fit the description of God that I gave? No, for a start, neither the Son nor the Holy Spirit knew when the Hour would come, thus not omniscient.

Polytheism, how can you have multiple gods and fit within the description I gave? You can't.

Henotheism (from Greek ἑνας θεός (henas theos), meaning 'one god') is the worship of a single god while not denying the existence or possible existence of other deities. Henotheism - Wikipedia If the single God fits the description I gave, then there can not be the possibility, even remotely of other gods. To think otherwise means you are committing Shirk. Anyone who follows this definition of Henotheism is entertaining the possibility of shirk.

He is Allah , other than whom there is no deity, the Sovereign, the Pure, the Perfection, the Bestower of Faith, the Overseer, the Exalted in Might, the Compeller, the Superior. Exalted is Allah above whatever they associate with Him. Qur'an 59:23

Is it so difficult to understand that people have various conceptions of the sacred? Not all of them are even theistic.
If their concepts fall within the definition I gave based on the word of God from the Qur'an, then yes they are following Monotheism, and their concept of God is sacred and correct. If in doubt, please outline their concept of the sacred, as perhaps Muslims have it wrong.
 

LuisDantas

Aura of atheification
Premium Member
Islaam choosing not to use the concepts is no excuse for misrepresenting them in such grave ways.
 

LuisDantas

Aura of atheification
Premium Member
The Trinity is a form of henotheism (although I don't think many Christians even know that).

Much as God himself is a personification of the Sacred, henotheism takes that metaphor one step ahead and customizes it into more specialized representations of certain virtues and roles.
 

Muslim-UK

Well-Known Member
Premium Member
The Trinity is a form of henotheism (although I don't think many Christians even know that).
So you understand only the Father is truly GOD. The other 2 'lesser' gods do not fit the description of GOD.

In Henotheism as you appear to be describing it, are the various virtues and roles part of the ONE God, or are they each fully independent gods, working in conjunction with God, or is God spilt into various sections? 100% broken down - 10% wisdom, 10% knowledge, 10% creator, etc etc Please explain.
 

LuisDantas

Aura of atheification
Premium Member
So you understand only the Father is truly GOD.

Nope. I understand enough of that Christian beliefs to be capable of not fully misrepresenting it.

I am not however limited to conceptions of God that suffer from the limitations that you seem to demand.

Nor do I believe in the existence of any deities, but that is neither here nor there.


The other 2 'lesser' gods do not fit the description of GOD.

In your head, that is probably true.

Does not have true to be in anyone else's.


In Henotheism as you appear to be describing it, are the various virtues and roles part of the ONE God, or are they each fully independent gods, working in conjunction with God, or is God spilt into various sections? 100% broken down - 10% wisdom, 10% knowledge, 10% creator, etc etc Please explain.

There is no reason to presuppose the existence of any variety of god, and the rather contradictory God of the Qur'an is anything but an exception.

And again, you are attempting to impose very arbitrary limitations to a concept whose very premise is that of transcendence... that will not lead you into very functional understandings of religious practice, I fear.
 
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