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Featured Idolatry and Dualism

Discussion in 'Religious Debates' started by Fool, Aug 25, 2019.

  1. Fool

    Fool ALL in all
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    Does idolatry lead to dualism?
     
  2. PureX

    PureX Veteran Member

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    I don't think so. I think dualism is the result of the way our brains function: compare/contrast/repeat.
     
  3. SalixIncendium

    SalixIncendium सच्चितानन्द
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    I don't see how it couldn't, as idolatry requires a dichotomy.

    I/other is dualism.
     
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  4. firedragon

    firedragon Well-Known Member

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    Depends on your rendition of Idolatry.

    e.g. Idolatry according to this book called the Quran is idolising anything as divine other than God who is "the divine".

    Even money or children.
     
  5. Windwalker

    Windwalker Integralist
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    Actually, I believe it's the other way around.
     
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  6. SalixIncendium

    SalixIncendium सच्चितानन्द
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    Please offer an example of a rendition of idolatry that doesn't involved dualism.
     
  7. firedragon

    firedragon Well-Known Member

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    I believe I already gave that example brother. You responded to that. If I am not clear I shall try to.
     
  8. SalixIncendium

    SalixIncendium सच्चितानन्द
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    If one idolizes anything, it creates a dichotomy, which is the very nature of dualism. So in your example, such a rendition is dualism.
     
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  9. Sunstone

    Sunstone De Diablo Del Fora
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    Nonsense! Preposterous nonsense! Who on earth has ever heard tell of Idols challenging each other to duels?
     
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  10. firedragon

    firedragon Well-Known Member

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    I agree to a certain level. But it also seems you didn't really understand what I said.

    Your understanding of dualism seems to be akin to Bimba Prathibimba idea of dualism.

    What I said above is that

    1. Money is reality.
    2. God ("The Divine) is also reality. Don't get carried away by the meaning of the word God in the language I speak.
    3. But money is not God ("The Divine").

    But all are 'one'. One source. This is not about idolising one thing. This is about not idolising anything. Forget about worshiping God, giving him stuff, asking for things from God etc etc. These are baggages we carry. Let it go for a moment.

    There is nothing divine, only God would in your eyes mean "idolise God". Not necessarily. It could very well mean don't idolise anything.

    Also brother. When you say you idolise anything it creates a dichotomy, you are already assuming that anything someone idolises (e.g. God or "the divine") is separate from everything else. Thats a preconceived notion.

    There are spans of thought on this matter and thinking itself can be deemed blasphemy on this matter. But a deep study of the Quran might render thoughts to ponder because you are free to do so.
     
  11. SalixIncendium

    SalixIncendium सच्चितानन्द
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    No.

    Anything one idolizes is separate from him/herself. That’s dualism.
     
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  12. firedragon

    firedragon Well-Known Member

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    Not true. And you didnt understand what I said.

    Nevertheless. Cheers. Have a good day.
     
  13. SalixIncendium

    SalixIncendium सच्चितानन्द
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    Perhaps not to you. And it wasn’t for lack of effort.

    You, too. :)
     
  14. firedragon

    firedragon Well-Known Member

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    Hmm. After some contemplation, I think you are spot on with your statement "perhaps not to you". Haha. I didnt expect that. Truth is also subjective. So let me say that was excellent.

    Nevertheless, when YOU say dualism, what do you mean? Which dualism are you referring to? Do you discuss mind-body dualism and monism, Indian-hindu-religious-buddhist type of dualism or property/predicate dualism?

    I am asking you because you began with idolatry (which also you should define if possible because idolatry is subjective).

    Cheers.
     
  15. FooYang

    FooYang Active Member

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    I think in general, the over-emphasis of Nonduality in modern Hinduism is almost fascist (towards strict Dualists) but at the same time naive. I've more respect for Hindu philosophers in this sense, because they usually consider these things on a deeper intellectual and mystical level than simply belief-based.

    Dualism itself is limiting (however it is entirely necessary and in many way, superior) but Nondualists seem to forget that even if they believe in Nonduality, they still experience life through Duality, it's inescapable.

    The truth is that Ultimate Reality itself is Nondualistic but it's manifestation/emanation/creation is Dualistic. Dualism and Nondualism fit within each other. Any individual person is not the Absolute, only the Absolute it the Absolute. We are a result of the Absolute which is eternal and 'not like this or that'.
    And I mean this, even if one has full conviction that Atman = Brahman.


    In general to Hindus though, Dualism is a dirty word. At the same time, many Western monotheists seen to think Nonduality is a dirty word.
    The thing is, all common worldviews (especially including Atheism) will often be one or the other.

    Islam offers the perspective I think is closest to the truth, being that God is 'none of these'. We think Dualistically because we are Dualistic. We experience Dunya, we experience 'incarnation' (of Ruh), we experience the manifestation of the 99 names of God. But there is nothing independent of God, everything is of God's essence but nothing is identical with God, it can't be, we're experiencing impermanence, whereas God is eternal.


    As for Idolatry, it's easy for people to go twisting what it even means. Idolatry doesn't exist (in the same terms) in Hinduism, so a Hindus interpretation will not suffice. Idolatry is attachment to temporal, impermanent, transitory things (aka, anything in the Universe), not just idols or deities. Idolatry is Dualistic again, because the Universe is Dualistic.
    Nowadays in Hindu traditions in Vedanta there is this utterly hilarious :D tendency to apply metaphysics to physics (however, not the other way around :rolleyes: ), it speaks for itself but the only true Nondualism has to have a clear understanding of what Māyā applies to (being anything but Brahman), there are truly no exceptions to it, considering that Advaita tends to be strong-Nonduality.
    However, modern Nondualism in general tends to be incoherent because it doesn't really understand how Nondualism has been traditionally understood.
     
  16. Fool

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    Basics of Islam: To Know Your Self is to Know Allah
     
  17. Fool

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    so this triggered an idea on the tree of good and evil as knowledge vs the tree of life. almost as if it might have been a warning against idolatry. could knowledge be a form of idolatry; especially if its used to subjugate and enslave others?
     
  18. Fool

    Fool ALL in all
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    Unity can only be manifested by the binary. Unity and the idea of unity are already two. - Morals and Dogma of the Ancient and Accepted Scottish Rite of Freemasonry
     
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  19. wellwisher

    wellwisher Active Member

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    Idol worship is based on projections from the unconscious mind. An unconscious projection shows up like a movie overlay, onto reality, that the unconscious person merges in their mind, until it appears as one thing outside themselves. A good example of this affect, in day to day life, is connected to good art. Good art is designed to make you feel something. The feeling can be good or bad, but one is not indifferent.

    Idolatry is when you think the art is alive or has a spirit, because of this unconscious induction affect. This affect can make a work of art very valuable. In reality, the imbedded trigger, is from the creative unconscious of the artist. This subliminal trigger, unconsciously added to the art, can induce a parallel feeling inside the audience. Idolatry is when you assume the inanimate object is alive or has a spirit, due to the induction dynamics and a projection merger.

    A good example in modern times is connected to guns. To the left, guns cause mass shootings. Guns have become an idol god or spirit, that can make people fire the gun, as though the person becomes a slave to the god of the gun. The left would like to hide all the guns so the spirit cannot control people. If you even look at the Medusa gun, you will turn to stone.

    I have been trying to reinforce the idea guns are not alive, nor do they have souls or spirits. But the religions of the left are so full of idols and unconsciousness, this does not seem to get through. They say they go not believe in God, but worship spirits of idols.

    The Golden Calf of Moses; original idol warning, was a good work of art that was made of expensive gold materials. This fancy work of art could trigger the unconsciousness in the mob. As the mass projection began, they would all merge the unconscious projection and see the golden calf as alive, via its own divine soul. This is the path of insanity and the idol warning was an attempt by God to avoid his flock going to the looney bin.

    A good work of art can still move, you without becoming an idol. It is all about understanding the nature of unconscious projection and making that overlay part of you instead of part of the art. The spirit of the gun is really connected to induced propaganda programming, stetting up an unconscious subroutine, that can be used to project. This form of religion is called idol worship.
     
  20. firedragon

    firedragon Well-Known Member

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    Ah. So that's why you have not understood anything that was said. You were responding without understand what I tried to explain about idolatry.

    Anyway, its your prerogative. Cheers.
     
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