1. Welcome to Religious Forums, a friendly forum to discuss all religions in a friendly surrounding.

    Your voice is missing! You will need to register to get access to the following site features:
    • Reply to discussions and create your own threads.
    • Our modern chat room. No add-ons or extensions required, just login and start chatting!
    • Access to private conversations with other members.

    We hope to see you as a part of our community soon!

Ideology is Fantasy

Discussion in 'General Debates' started by The Reverend Bob, Jun 3, 2019.

  1. The Reverend Bob

    The Reverend Bob Fart Machine and Beastmaster

    Joined:
    May 19, 2019
    Messages:
    3,605
    Ratings:
    +1,737
    Religion:
    Non-realist
    Whether the ideology is political, cultural or religious/spiritual it is not something based on reality or on the here and now but on what people believe things should be or how things should be or are. Often ideology is used as a protective filter that saves us from seeing the vagaries of reality and give us the false comfort of an ordered universe. Even when ideologies accept the reality of the chaotic and unpredictable it is often looked at as something to be remedied or as something evil and sometimes as something to surrender to. Rather than putting on the glasses and seeing the world just as it is, we would rather eat the trash can because why not? We eat the trash everyday but in our ideological frame of mind we see the trash as filet mignon because the ubiquitous "they" "the authorities" and "the experts" tell us that it is filet mignon and "they know better than us" because after all "it is written...".

    Let us take the ideology "democracy", a vague term that no one seems to be able to define precisely, people mention concepts like "freedom" (freedom from what?) or rights (often limited because too much "freedom" is a bad thing apparently) and "liberty". The ideology "democracy" like all other ideologies is nothing more than a baby's pacifier, given to you to suck on in order to keep you quiet when you want mother's milk but lacking in the nourishments you need. It is a promise to make you feel alright or give you meaning but that is all on the surface. You dine at the Cafe Ideology and you will find yourself munching on a Nothing Burger with a side of Word Salad while you await your turn to try the new and improved Bull**** Buffet.
     
    • Like Like x 1
    • Winner Winner x 1
  2. David T

    David T Well-Known Member
    Premium Member

    Joined:
    Jul 8, 2011
    Messages:
    7,533
    Ratings:
    +2,808
    Although if the broad spectrum insists it is reality you just have to choose which one I would say that's a very very serious issue.
     
  3. The Reverend Bob

    The Reverend Bob Fart Machine and Beastmaster

    Joined:
    May 19, 2019
    Messages:
    3,605
    Ratings:
    +1,737
    Religion:
    Non-realist
    Ideology is forced upon us. We are said to be given a "choice" and this "choice" is supposed to be proof that we are "free to choose" and is a perfect example of "democracy" at work. Then we are shown an red apple and then green apple and told these are our "choices". How is this "choice" or "freedom". It is just ritual and pure spectacle. Wizard of Oz crap. The political ideologies of the US are like this, we are given two or at most three "choices" as to what we are supposed to believe "left", "right" or "middle" and this is supposed to be "freedom"
     
  4. Quintessence

    Quintessence Tale Weaver
    Staff Member Premium Member

    Joined:
    Aug 19, 2011
    Messages:
    19,654
    Ratings:
    +12,610
    Religion:
    Druidry
    I think you're setting up a false dichotomy here.

    All ideologies, without exception, are based on reality in the sense that they cannot and do not emerge out of a vacuum. They are responses to something humans experience, which means they are responses to something in our environment. While philosophical debates can be had as to the nature of the sources of human experience, for the most part we tend to agree that the environment exists. But as human experiences are subjective, so too are how we respond to the sources of those experiences. Consequently, we create maps of the territory to help us navigate and understand the environment we live in and the experiences we have. These maps can and do have different purposes, which may or may not include what you call "false comfort" and whatnot. There is no "seeing the world just as it is" for humans.
     
    • Like Like x 2
  5. The Reverend Bob

    The Reverend Bob Fart Machine and Beastmaster

    Joined:
    May 19, 2019
    Messages:
    3,605
    Ratings:
    +1,737
    Religion:
    Non-realist
    I admit that ideology arises out human need and desire. Like the need for comfort and/or security, the need to belong to something grander or bigger than oneself but that doesn't take away from the fact that all ideologies are subjective, that there is no inherent truth or falsehood in them. They are essentially religious in nature because people believe in them without requiring proof whether they can be true or false.
     
  6. Sanzbir

    Sanzbir Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Aug 1, 2017
    Messages:
    1,146
    Ratings:
    +612
    Religion:
    Baha'i
    A sliver of truth, buried in heaping mounds of edgy tryhardism.
     
  7. Augustus

    Augustus the Unreasonable

    Joined:
    Dec 27, 2014
    Messages:
    9,552
    Ratings:
    +8,237
    Religion:
    none
    No one can see the world 'just as it is', and even if we could it would be in no way conducive to living a meaningful and/or enjoyable life.
     
  8. The Reverend Bob

    The Reverend Bob Fart Machine and Beastmaster

    Joined:
    May 19, 2019
    Messages:
    3,605
    Ratings:
    +1,737
    Religion:
    Non-realist
    Who told you this and why do you believe this is so? maybe we don't need "meaningful or enjoyable", seeing the bare bones of reality might be conducive to survival of the species, there is little enjoyment in the struggle to survive. O am not sure the mighty lion ask himself whether his activity is meaningful or enjoyable.
     
  9. sun rise

    sun rise "Let there be peace and love among all"
    Premium Member

    Joined:
    Apr 28, 2014
    Messages:
    34,899
    Ratings:
    +12,999
    Religion:
    Love
    I agree there's a fantasy element to some ideologies such as tax cuts pay for themselves. But there is also sometimes evidence that they work in some situations.

    So I think the OP has an element of truth but is overstated. Given our state of knowledge, what alternative is there to having an ideological stance knowing that it's imperfect and being willing to accept evidence to the contrary if and when it becomes available?
     
  10. The Reverend Bob

    The Reverend Bob Fart Machine and Beastmaster

    Joined:
    May 19, 2019
    Messages:
    3,605
    Ratings:
    +1,737
    Religion:
    Non-realist
    That is a problem that needs to be address when it comes to ideology, just as with religion when you present a person whether they be leftists or on the right with evidence that their ideological beliefs might be based on a falsehood sometimes they become in entrenched in their beliefs. In their minds "Bernie is always right!" or "Trump can do no wrong"
     
  11. dmap

    dmap God is good and beautiful

    Joined:
    Mar 28, 2018
    Messages:
    1,451
    Ratings:
    +401
    Religion:
    deist monotheist agnostic panentheist
    Humans have the capacity to experience ideas and to create them. The problem is: when they claim certain ideas are true without matching them up to physical reality via the scientific method.

    But even non-physical ideas have their potential benefits. Using sound philosophy, certain ideas can be considered useful and helpful even though they don't correspond to physical matter.

    yes, social ideas that dream of a utopia in the future can be unhelpful. But there is nothing wrong with wanting to improve the world.
     
  12. Augustus

    Augustus the Unreasonable

    Joined:
    Dec 27, 2014
    Messages:
    9,552
    Ratings:
    +8,237
    Religion:
    none
    It's pretty much the same point you were making. Do you actually think you see the world just as it is?

    We are bundles of molecules that became sentient by chance, and not for the purpose of seeing the world 'just as it is'.

    Considering we evolved specifically to not see the world just as it is, why on earth would it be conducive to the survival of the species to see the world just as it is?
     
  13. The Reverend Bob

    The Reverend Bob Fart Machine and Beastmaster

    Joined:
    May 19, 2019
    Messages:
    3,605
    Ratings:
    +1,737
    Religion:
    Non-realist
    Can you give an example? I can give one, let's take the idea of altruism.
     
    • Like Like x 1
  14. dmap

    dmap God is good and beautiful

    Joined:
    Mar 28, 2018
    Messages:
    1,451
    Ratings:
    +401
    Religion:
    deist monotheist agnostic panentheist
    These are examples of where philosophy can be helpful. There is an online course on YouTube (in the YaleCourses channel) called "The Moral Foundations of Politics" by Ian Shapiro in which he analyzes such ideas of political philosophy.

    I agree that when people have different opposing views on a topic, this indicates that the truth of this topic can't be known. But in some cases, it's not so sinister and is merely that we must choose which course of action to take. And this requires considering whether democracy is a better system of government than totalitarianism (for example).

    As humans, we can affect the events of the world using our ideas. So we should study philosophy so we can make good choices and avoid getting fooled by bad ideas.
     
  15. The Reverend Bob

    The Reverend Bob Fart Machine and Beastmaster

    Joined:
    May 19, 2019
    Messages:
    3,605
    Ratings:
    +1,737
    Religion:
    Non-realist
    Because our ideological and religious conflicts are causing great suffering and may cause our extinction because some of us because of our ideological and/or religious beliefs do not want to see the reality of impending global disaster. That's why.
     
  16. Augustus

    Augustus the Unreasonable

    Joined:
    Dec 27, 2014
    Messages:
    9,552
    Ratings:
    +8,237
    Religion:
    none
    You seem to assume your own views are in no way ideological (a common conceit).

    What you are really proposing is that people follow a different ideology, not that people 'see the world just as it is'.

    Can you actually explain how 'seeing the world just as it is' would produce global harmony or whatever result you find desirable?
     
  17. dmap

    dmap God is good and beautiful

    Joined:
    Mar 28, 2018
    Messages:
    1,451
    Ratings:
    +401
    Religion:
    deist monotheist agnostic panentheist
    Are you wondering whether altruism has any good benefits, or whether it is possible to eradicate the idea of altruism from human collective consciousness?

    Usually, it's impossible to discuss ideas without defining the terminology. I have not studied altruism in this regard so I'm not sure how helpful I could be.
     
  18. The Reverend Bob

    The Reverend Bob Fart Machine and Beastmaster

    Joined:
    May 19, 2019
    Messages:
    3,605
    Ratings:
    +1,737
    Religion:
    Non-realist
    I am not saying it will magically bring "global harmony" (I think that is impossible), I am saying that if we don't put on the sunglasses, we might find ourselves eating that trash can. I don't want to eat the trash can.
     
  19. The Reverend Bob

    The Reverend Bob Fart Machine and Beastmaster

    Joined:
    May 19, 2019
    Messages:
    3,605
    Ratings:
    +1,737
    Religion:
    Non-realist
    Whether it can be considered a non-physical idea without a scientific bearing that benefits us. But since you have not studied altruism I think it is bet for you to supply the example.
     
    • Like Like x 1
  20. Augustus

    Augustus the Unreasonable

    Joined:
    Dec 27, 2014
    Messages:
    9,552
    Ratings:
    +8,237
    Religion:
    none
    What you are saying is you wish more people held ideologies you find preferable. You wish our illusions drove us in more positive directions

    You were right in saying 'ideology is fantasy', just wrong to absolve yourself.
     
Loading...