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Featured Identifying the 144,000

Discussion in 'Biblical Debates' started by Deeje, Apr 14, 2019.

  1. A Vestigial Mote

    A Vestigial Mote Well-Known Member

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    I'm not saying you did. That comment was directed at the authors. They thought they had something to say, apparently, else why write the book? But they made sure it was so wrapped in puzzle and symbolism that ________. Fill in the blank with anything except that they made their point(s) well known and accessible. And is that a "success" on their part, do you think? Is that what they were going for? Is that what God would like His "word" to be represented by?
     
  2. A Vestigial Mote

    A Vestigial Mote Well-Known Member

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    The fact that you are "good citizens" and "pay your taxes" has very little to do with your religion - as much as you may beg to differ.

    Again - I would say this has nothing to do with your religion.

    Now this is an ironic bit. When your brand of religion (at least the greater category) seems the most prone to proselytize of any religion on the planet.

    This is certainly not the only thing I've born witness to. Threats of damnation, people getting really, really huffy, people attempting to guide and steer legislation, people protesting and complaining to no foreseeable end, people leaving their children's ailments untreated in favor of healing by God, people duping others for monetary gain. Let me know where you get your rose-colored glasses from. They seem like they must be pretty good ones.

    Do you do it for the people you talk about, or because God calls you to do it and you want that sweet spot in "heaven?" Do you really care about my autonomy and freedom (that you believe is given to me by God, remember?), or would you rather I just believed like you so that things were easier? Do you even care if what you speak is the truth, knowing that you have no inter-subjectively verifiable evidence, or any way to sufficiently demonstrate the truth of your claims, or are you just afraid of finding out you've wasted years of your life? Yeah... your motives have questions floating all around them.
     
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  3. shmogie

    shmogie Well-Known Member

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    Lets begin and try and answer your questions and questions.

    First, the most ironic. You are concerned about verifiable evidence to support my claims. You are big on evidence right ?

    What evidence is there for the singularity that allegedly existed before the big bang, that was the cause for the creation of the universe ? Would you please cite that evidence ?

    Perhaps you believe in another idea about the creation of the universe, multi verse ?, brane theory, open or closed universe ? Please cite the verifiable evidence for whatever you believe to be the cause for the creation of the universe.

    How about the creation of life ? So far, as far I can tell, there is only one idea desperately held on to by non believers, abiogenesis. There is no observed, created, or known process for how this works, yet it is taught as fact. The earth is proposed to be essentially a rock undergoing rain and lightning and this runoff creates a sea where life pops up, or maybe it was a thermal vent, or maybe in clay, or maybe in bubbles.

    Please cite the verifiable evidence for how this occurred, any idea you like. Lab created dsimle [polymers aren´t verifiable evidence for abiogenesis, the creation pf life from non living chemicals, but go ahead show me the evidence. A precursor cell fossil would be interesting, or an exact rendering based upon geology of the percentages of actual chemicals in the precursor environment, and their combinations to create life would be good.

    Fact is, based upon verifiable evidence, you haven a clue as to how the universe or life came into existence. Dress up a pig with scientific language, and highly intelligent PhDś telling you it isn´t a pig, you still have a pig.

    My pig is just as pretty as yours

    You rightly complain about negative behavior of alleged Christians. I complain of the same things. A person can call themselves a shovel, that doesn´t make them one.

    There is a standard, given by Christ as to how to tell a true believer. He said by their fruit you will know them. He also said there is a wide path that many walk thinging they are Christians, yet in the end, they are found to be non Christian.

    Paul clearly enunciates the Fruit Christ was talking about. Love, patience, kindness, willingness to help etc., etc, etc.

    The traits you list are anathema to what we are told our behavior should be, so draw your own conclusions.

    You seem concerned that Christians share the Gospel. Why do we do that ?

    Well, we were told to do that, by Christ. The why is important. The true Christian believes that Christ, in love, wants the entire world saved from both the end of the world as we know it, and literally death. We, out of this concern, want people to hear the simple message that cas save them.

    I have reached the age where friends and people I know are dropping off the twig.

    When one dies who for, whatever reason, I didn´t mention the Gospel to them, I shudder. If they are lost, I could share responsibility for that when I am judged.

    Sure, I would like to live forever as promised, but that is up to God, so I don´t worry about it.

    I was an atheist once myself. I had all the arguments against Christianity, and probably more, that you have. I believed humans were just animals all scruffing for survival with each other and all the other animals, with oblivion at the end of the scruffing.

    A philosophy course led me down some interesting roads and led me to some interesting questions.

    In the end, I found that the Christian philosophy of life is a rewarding way to live, and I don´t have to judge my worth by money, the size of my house, or the car I drive.

    Being concerned for people, giving, helping, volunteering is rewarding in itself. Being an agent of peace to others in a world that rips at ones sense of peace is a high reward.

    I believe it was Blaise Pascal who said," if you are right, and I am wrong, I lose nothing, if I am right and you are wrong, you lose everything ¨

    So, to the atheists, I say bring it if you feel you have to. I have listened to you for years in this forum, you intimidate me not, you sway me not. I believe most are insecure about their "faith" and must constantly re confirm it by raging at me as a Christian target. Really, no big deal.
     
  4. A Vestigial Mote

    A Vestigial Mote Well-Known Member

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    I don't care about this. It doesn't affect my day to day life. In fact, knowledge or lack thereof on this topic affects absolutely no part of my life. At least not that I realize or care about.

    Do you believe I HAVE TO have an explanation for the "creation" of the universe? Seriously?

    Once again - this doesn't truly matter. Would it be cool to know the origins? Sure? Do I have to know the origins in order to live my life? Don't make me laugh. I DON'T KNOW. A statement that is a billion times more honest than any theistic story of how the universe was "created."

    I'm not going to make a positive claim about how the universe or life had their starts. I don't know how it happened, and I am open to evidenced explanations. Until then, I'll leave the "claiming to know" bit to people like you.

    Once again - I DON'T HAVE TO HAVE A CLUE. I don't. Don't, don't, don't, don't, don't. I'm still here, still alive, still capable. Don't need to know this. Doesn't matter if I do or I don't. Would I like to know? Sure. Am I going to accept fantasy as reality just to satisfy that desire? Hell no.

    I skimmed the rest of your post and it didn't seem to warrant reply, honestly. The above was too obviously presumptuous and misconstruing what necessarily "need be" for me to even come close to thinking you were in the right frame of mind to be taken seriously anyway.
     
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  5. Fool

    Fool ALL in all
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    Dan, Type of Antichrist.

    But Dan became the very type of evil-doing. He was placed to the north (Num. ii. 25), this being the region of darkness and evil (Jer. i. 14), because of his idolatry which wrapped the world in darkness (Num. R. ii.). Still further goes a tradition which identifies the serpent and the lion (Gen. xlix. 17 and Deut. xxxiii. 22) with
    Belial (see the literature in Bousset's "Antichrist," 1895, pp. 87, 113). Irenæus ("Adversus Hæreses," v. 302), Hippolytus ("De Christo et Antichristo," pp. 14, 15), and other Church fathers have a tradition, which can not but be of Jewish origin, that the Antichrist comes from the tribe of Dan, and base it upon Jer. viii. 16: "The snorting of his [the enemy's] horses was heard from Dan"—a verse referred also in Gen. R. xliii. to Dan's idolatry. Irenæus remarks that Dan is, in view of this tradition, not in the Apocalypse (Rev. vii. 5-7) among the 144,000 saved ones of the twelve tribes. Nor is the omission of Dan in I Chron. iv. et seq. unintentional. Bousset, who has a special chapter devoted to the Dan Antichrist legend (l.c. pp. 112-115), believes that the connection of Dan with Belial in Test. Patr., Dan, 5 points to the same tradition. This seems to find corroboration in Targ. Yer. to Deut. xxxiv. 3, where the war against Ahriman ([​IMG])and Gog or Magog in the vision of Moses seems to refer to Dan, 1 (compare Sifre, l.c. to [​IMG]; see also Dan, in Ten Tribes, The Lost.)


    Why Is the Tribe of Dan Not Mentioned in Revelation 7:4-8?
     
  6. sooda

    sooda Well-Known Member

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    The myths and legends about the tribe of Dan are endless and fanciful.

    "The Serpent's Trail" -- The Mysterious Tribe of Dan

    The tribe of Dan was the first tribe of Israel to plunge into pagan IDOLATRY! Over the centuries, they have become steeped in idolatry and image worship -- so much so that they will be slow to repent of their sins and to come out of the prevalent end-time idolatry of Roman Catholicism, which numbers over 900 million adherents around the world, today.

    Thus Dan, who was a "lion's whelp" who would "leap from Bashan," leaped all the way to Ireland, where historians explain that the early settlers were known as the "Tuatha de Danaan" -- literally, the "tribe of Dan."

    The Greeks called them the Danoi, the Romans called them Danaus.

    In Ireland, today, we find their customary evidence -- their place names -- in abundance.

    Such names as Dans-Lough, Dan-Sower, Dan-Monism, Dun-dalke, Dun-drum, Don-egal Bay, Don-egal City, Dun-glow and Lon-don-derry, as well as Din-gle, Dun-garven and Duns-more, which means "MORE DANS."

    Continued

    "The Serpent's Trail" -- The Mysterious Tribe of Dan

    Of course, the most famous Irish ballad of all time is the song, "Danny Boy."

    It should be plain that the country of Ireland is replete, filled with names which derive from the ancient patriarch of the Hebrews -- DAN, the son of Jacob!

    It should be plain that the ancient Danites settled in Ireland, and most of them dwell in that land, today.
     
  7. sooda

    sooda Well-Known Member

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    The tribe of Dan was the first tribe to plunge into idolatry, as the book of Judges reveals (Judges 18).

    They became ensnared in this sin, and their descendants, today, the Irish, are among the most superstitious and idolatrous people on the earth.

    They today practice the Roman Catholic religion, and are among the most devout and fervid Catholics on earth.

    This, however, is partly due to the fact that a strong Canaanite element is mixed in with the people of Southern Ireland.

    The Canaanites and their descendants have always gravitated towards the various forms of sun worship.

    • It will require the Second Coming of the Messiah to bring them back out of the idolatry they are steeped in, and that is why the tribe of Dan is left out of the 144,000 servants of YEHOVAH God mentioned in the book of Revelation.
    "The Serpent's Trail" -- The Mysterious Tribe of Dan
     
  8. Fool

    Fool ALL in all
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    from my eastern philosophy studies i learned iran and ireland come from the same root word, aryan. erin is another name for ireland.


    These ancient Irish genomes each show unequivocal evidence for massive migration. The early farmer has a majority ancestry originating ultimately in the Middle East, where agriculture was invented. The Bronze Age genomes are different again with about a third of their ancestry coming from ancient sources in the Pontic Steppe.

    "There was a great wave of genome change that swept into Europe from above the Black Sea into Bronze Age Europe and we now know it washed all the way to the shores of its most westerly island," said Professor of Population Genetics in Trinity College Dublin, Dan Bradley, who led the study, "and this degree of genetic change invites the possibility of other associated changes, perhaps even the introduction of language ancestral to western Celtic tongues."



    and


    Iran as the Historical Tri-Continental Bridge, and Ireland? An Ethno-Cultural and Etymological Interconnectedness


    and


    Ireland underwent a massive prehistoric wave of immigration from the Middle East and eastern Europe, which could explain how modern farming arrived in the region, researchers said in a study released on Monday.
     
    #168 Fool, Apr 17, 2019
    Last edited: Apr 17, 2019
  9. ecco

    ecco Well-Known Member

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    It requires indoctrination. Atheists either haven't been indoctrinated or have overcome their indoctrination. Usually the latter.

    Right, the old "Real Christian" argument. In the minds of the majority of Christians, no JW is a real Christian, so I don't think that argument works well for you.

    Noone wrote the science books. Science books represent the accumulated knowledge of mankind.

    Science progresses toward an understanding of the universe. We went from the earth as the center of everything to the earth revolving around the unmoving sun to realizing that the sun was a star among billions of other stars.

    Which "him"? Which god? The one you favor? Or are you referring to Shiva or Allah or any of the tens of thousands of gods that are or were worshipped? All gods that sprang from the minds of man.

    Christians cannot even agree on the attributes of their god.

    When you use terms like "chance to pop into existence" and "proof" you show your ignorance of science.

    Nevertheless, there is far more evidence for evolution than there is for a god existing forever.


    Christians have been shaking in their boots for over 2000 years waiting for the "judgement". For over 2000 years prophets have been saying "any day now - in the near future". If I'm not mistaken that was done in the early days of JW by prophets of JW. Yet here we are.


    You believe those things because the leaders of your religious sect have instilled that into you since you were born.

    Many Christians would describe JW as the weed.


    Every Baptist, evangelical, protestant, catholic believes exactly the same thing, they are the ones living as true Christians.


    Your worldview was shaped by indoctrination long before you even knew a "choice" existed.

    Those you refer to as "refugees from Christendom" would tell you that a huge weight has been lifted from their shoulders when they overcame their indoctrination.

    When you were one, two, three years old you were saying prayers, you were told about god, you were constantly reminded that god was real.

    No atheist is exposed to endless hours of evolution and astronomy at those ages.

    Early childhood indoctrination is very powerful. Even today, you speak with the regional intonations that you were exposed to as a very young child.

    I'm sure you believe that.

    When you make comments like "the finality and hopelessness of atheism " you are showing you don't have the slightest concept of atheists or atheism.
     
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  10. sooda

    sooda Well-Known Member

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  11. Fool

    Fool ALL in all
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  12. sooda

    sooda Well-Known Member

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    Fascinating.. This may keep me busy all day. Thanks.
     
  13. sooda

    sooda Well-Known Member

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    Serpent temples in the British Isles would tie them to Egypt and the Levant before Genesis.
     
  14. Shiranui117

    Shiranui117 Pronounced Shee-ra-noo-ee
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    Ahh, my apologies for misunderstanding you then. In that case, I can get what you're saying. It's also perfectly fair to ask whether the Book of Revelation was ever intended to be read by anyone outside of the small target audience who would understand the symbolisms involved. Questions like the ones you raised are why Revelation wasn't readily accepted into the Biblical canon until the 500's or even later throughout much of Christianity, long after Byzantine lectionaries were written. Even the Coptic Orthodox Church reads the Book of Revelation on only one day a year (Holy Saturday).
     
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  15. sooda

    sooda Well-Known Member

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    The answer seems obvious to me.

    The target audience of the Revelation letter which was to be read aloud to the 7 churches of the first century would have absolutely understood the symbolism and political implications of their reality.
     
  16. The Anointed

    The Anointed Well-Known Member

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    Romans 9:6
    6--"Not as though the word of God hath taken none effect. For they are not all Israel, which are of Israel"

    For the tribe of Benjamin no longer exists. The other tribes of Israel slaughtered the tribe of Benjamin. Judges 20: 48; "The Israelites turned back against the rest of the Benjaminites and killed them all-----men, women and children, and animals as well. They burned every town in the area.

    The six hundred survivors, were the Danites who were forced to live in the hill country of Benjamin, they were given 600 wives with who the moved up north into the land of Sidon, etc.

    The Israelites then created a pseudo tribe of Benjamin from the children of women from the tribe of Benjamin who had married into the other tribes before the war.
     
  17. Faithofchristian

    Faithofchristian Well-Known Member

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    The Tribe of Benjamin does exist.

    Even disciple Paul is of the tribe of Benjamin.
    Romans 11:1--" I say then, Has God cast away his people? God forbid,
    For I also am an Israelite, of the seed of Abraham, of the tribe of Benjamin"

    Therefore the Tribe of Benjamin still exist
    As disciple Paul himself is of the tribe of Benjamin.

    Revelation 7:8---"Of the tribe of Zabulon were sealed twelve thousand. Of the tribe of Joseph were sealed twelve thousand. Of the tribe of Benjamin were sealed twelve thousand"

    That even in the book of Revelation Christ Jesus has the tribe of Benjamin listed.

    So how is it that you say the tribe of Benjamin does not exist, when in fact Paul himself is of the tribe of Benjamin.
    And Christ Jesus himself has the tribe of Benjamin listed in his book of
    Revelation 7:8.and will be here on earth at Christ Jesus coming back to earth.

    So how is it that you say the tribe of Benjamin does not exist.
     
  18. sooda

    sooda Well-Known Member

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    There are at least two legends about the tribe of Benjamin.

    Are Afghans The Lost Tribe? | Neshika
    נְשִׁיקָה

    Are Afghans The Lost Tribe?the-lost-tribe

    Nov 08, 2016 · Even some Muslim scholars and writers accept this. The Afghan Royal family (exiled in 1973) also claim to trace their roots to the Tribe of Benjamin.

    The Pashtun, the main Afghan ethnic group and Taliban supporters, also believe they are descended from the Ten Lost Tribes of Israel, and later converted to Islam.




    THE TRIBE OF BENJAMIN

    ...and the Latin Connection

    ...Where are they now?

    If you are Hispanic, you must read this...

    WHERE IS THE TRIBE OF BENJAMIN NOW?

    The Irish and the Danes claim to be the remnant of the tribe of Dan.

    The Irish Tuatha Dé Dannan Connection to the Tribe of Dan ...
    https://gnosticwarrior.com/tuatha-de-dannan.html
    The Irish Tuatha Dé Dannan Connection to the Tribe of Dan. "The Danites ruled about two centuries until the arrival of the Milesians, which took place, 1000 years before the Christian era.' Thus the date of the arrival of the FIRST COLONY OF DANAANS WOULD BE 1200 B.C., or 85 years after Deborah and Barak's victory,...

     
  19. Faithofchristian

    Faithofchristian Well-Known Member

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    Maybe you should get a hold of Christ Jesus and tell him that.
    Seeing that Christ Jesus has the tribe of Benjamin listed in his book of Revelation and how the tribe of Benjamin will be here at Christ Jesus return.

    So how exactly is the tribe of Benjamin lost, seeing the tribe of Benjamin is listed in Christ Jesus book of Revelation.

    Revelation 7:8---"Of the tribe of Zabulon were sealed twelve thousand. Of the tribe of Joseph were sealed twelve thousand. Of the tribe of Benjamin were sealed twelve thousand"

    So how is it your saying about the tribe of Benjamin as being lost.

    Maybe you should let Christ Jesus know that the tribe of Benjamin is lost,
    But yet Christ Jesus has the tribe of Benjamin listed in his book of Revelation,
    As it doesn't look like the tribe of Benjamin is lost.
     
  20. sooda

    sooda Well-Known Member

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    First, the Book of Judges is a collection of legends, all of doubtful historical content.

    However, the book has a theme, which is reiterated—the lack of central authority led to chaos. The tribes of Israel battled each other.

    I just read Judges 19–21. It appears that during the period of the Judges, the tribe of Benjamin displayed a spirit of obstinacy in refusing to deliver up the perpetrators of a vile act performed in the city of Gibeah.

    This led to civil war with the other tribes, who were determined not to let the wrong go unpunished, and it resulted in the near extermination of the tribe of Benjamin. (Jg 19-21)

    Nevertheless, by the method devised by the other tribes for preserving the tribe, Benjamin recovered and grew from about 600 men to nearly 60,000 warriors by the time of David’s kingship.—1Ch 7:6-12.

    There are lots of legends.. The tribe of Benjamin are the ancestors of the Afghani Pashtun and/or they are the ancestors of the Spanish.

    Why don't you read before you get snippy?
     
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